Dave Meltzer stuff

[rzombie1988]

That Luger title win was one of my favorite WCW moments. Then he lost it a few days later to make WCW and Luger look like the fools they were to go against the NWO. Stupid.

[KrisZ]

You know we talked about Sting being booked horribly to death in the HOF thread but think about how shitty Luger was booked over the years. My god.

[rzombie1988]

You know we talked about Sting being booked horribly to death in the HOF thread but think about how shitty Luger was booked over the years. My god.

Oh yeah. Lex had terrible booking back to his NWA days. They turned him and had him lose so many big ones, but he still was over.

[rzombie1988]

I don't see how that works. Taker's streak, especially in recent years where it's a draw, is only possible because he rarely wrestles and isn't used as a house show draw. Goldberg was needed at every possible event.

You could have him do dark matches. Then the crowd is happy and he is still treated as a special attraction. I'd have kept his streak going until the fans got tired of it and then I would have had him lose to another up and comer to get that person over. DDP is commonly seen as the best possible choice for that.

 

The thing with Goldberg matches is that they were pretty entertaining for the most part. I'd certainly put him in my top 10 of squashers. He looked like a beast and it was usually pretty quick.

[sek69]

You know we talked about Sting being booked horribly to death in the HOF thread but think about how shitty Luger was booked over the years. My god.

Oh yeah. Lex had terrible booking back to his NWA days. They turned him and had him lose so many big ones, but he still was over.

 

 

The "blood stoppage" loss to Flair was a killer, considering I think I've lost more blood cutting myself shaving. Not only did it make Luger look like a guy who can't win the big one, it made the promotion look silly as well.

[BruiserBrody]

You know we talked about Sting being booked horribly to death in the HOF thread but think about how shitty Luger was booked over the years. My god.

Oh yeah. Lex had terrible booking back to his NWA days. They turned him and had him lose so many big ones, but he still was over.

 

 

The "blood stoppage" loss to Flair was a killer, considering I think I've lost more blood cutting myself shaving. Not only did it make Luger look like a guy who can't win the big one, it made the promotion look silly as well.

 

I looked at it is putting even more heat on Flair. JJ busts Luger open, a tiny trickle leads to a corrupt Maryland State Commissioner to save Flair's belt.

[khawk20]

You know we talked about Sting being booked horribly to death in the HOF thread but think about how shitty Luger was booked over the years. My god.

Oh yeah. Lex had terrible booking back to his NWA days. They turned him and had him lose so many big ones, but he still was over.

 

 

The "blood stoppage" loss to Flair was a killer, considering I think I've lost more blood cutting myself shaving. Not only did it make Luger look like a guy who can't win the big one, it made the promotion look silly as well.

 

I looked at it is putting even more heat on Flair. JJ busts Luger open, a tiny trickle leads to a corrupt Maryland State Commissioner to save Flair's belt.

 

I always wished they had called an audible of some sort, having Flair brain Luger from behind for a KO win by countout, something like that.

 

Easy for me to say since that finish was so specifically booked an audible could have made it look even worse than it did if you have a "commissoner" declaring a stoppage due to blood while Luger is in the process of getting KOed or is lying outside the ring knocked out.

 

Meh, maybe that still would have looked better.

[Loss]

It worked in making Luger hotter and setting up rematches that drew on house shows, but there's a pretty significant buyrate dropoff between the Bash and Starrcade. House shows were still the center of the business model of JCP, and they really didn't grasp how PPV could help them.

[KrisZ]

Bash wasn't as bad as Starrcade.....Starrcade should've been the switch.

[Ricky Jackson]

From today's update:

 

Thanks to Dwayne Johnson's lines in promos last year, John Cena will be on the cover of 4 million boxes of both Fruity Pebbles and Cocoa Pebbles cereals. Cena will be replacing cover mainstay Fred Flintstone, particially because Post has talked to kids, who have said Fred isn't the coolest or most relevant guy for the audience they are trying to reach. Cena's likeness was on the top of the box last year after Johnson's interviews about Fruity Pebbles, but not he will be the main character in the front and center, something in the past reserved for characters off the Flintstones cartoons.

Besides the joke you could make about Dave possibly not knowing Fred Flintstone is a cartoon character based on the way he phrases that sentence, I really wish I could have been in the meeting where Post executives debated Fred's lack of coolness and praised Cena's relevancy with the youth of America.

[KrisZ]

Dave having to explain Ann Calvello & Kerry Von Erich to people on Twitter just because he tweeted that their names were mentioned on the DREAM show was great

[WingedEagle]

Dave having to explain Ann Calvello & Kerry Von Erich to people on Twitter just because he tweeted that their names were mentioned on the DREAM show was great

That was pretty fun, but I was even more caught off guard seeing him tout WK7 as having 3 MOTY candidates. Was his 3rd the Jr. HW triangle or Nagata/Suzuki? Going to be mighty interesting to see his ratings on this show.

[Death From Above]

Maybe he meant "match of the year candidates as of the fourth of the year".

 

I'm not sure if I'm joking or not.

[goc]

Yeah but Goldberg didn't have to wrestle at every event. Make his matches special attractions and only for PPV's

Goldberg was probably the easiest guy to book in the "guy no one wants to have to wrestle" role, even if he was champ. Someone stepping up to challenge Goldberg while he was champ should have been a big deal. Not something for the likes of Bryan Adams, Al Greene and Scott Putski regardless if it was non-title.

[Loss]

I think they should have gone the New Japan route and paid a bunch of shooter types to do jobs to him. People thought Goldberg was more "real" than everyone else, which is what got him over. So that would have just added to it. Goldberg vs Don Frye would have been awesome. Shamrock coming in and doing a job after leaving the WWF would have been a nice touch too.

 

The whole concept of tough guys - and the innate desire of wrestling fans to see someone take an ass whuppin' - is one of the things most lost on the modern scene.

[rzombie1988]

I think they should have gone the New Japan route and paid a bunch of shooter types to do jobs to him. People thought Goldberg was more "real" than everyone else, which is what got him over. So that would have just added to it. Goldberg vs Don Frye would have been awesome. Shamrock coming in and doing a job after leaving the WWF would have been a nice touch too.

 

The whole concept of tough guys - and the innate desire of wrestling fans to see someone take an ass whuppin' - is one of the things most lost on the modern scene.

No one would have known any of them though. It worked in Japan because shoot stuff was popular there. Only the top boxers would have worked, but Evander Holyfield wasn't going to be taking a jackhammer.

 

WCW had Goldberg go through WCW's tough guys instead like Meng, Giant, etc., and it worked well.

[El-P]

I think they should have gone the New Japan route and paid a bunch of shooter types to do jobs to him. People thought Goldberg was more "real" than everyone else, which is what got him over. So that would have just added to it. Goldberg vs Don Frye would have been awesome. Shamrock coming in and doing a job after leaving the WWF would have been a nice touch too.

In my personnal fantasy land, you have Jim Cornette showing up on Nitro somewhere in 2001 (instead of the death of WCW), shooting on the promotion right and left, burying Hogan, Bischoff, the nWo, Russo and the likes, and pretending he has the real world champion on his side and that the belt Goldberg is carrying around isn't the one dating back to 1905 or so. Then he shows up with Dan Severn wearing the NWA belt (don't tell me who was the actual champion at that time, I don't care, it's my fantasy world), and they have a big face-of with Goldy. They built Severn by having him throw and slap people around (unlike what they did in WWF, exposing him as "just another guy") and you get a huge title vs title match on PPV, which Severn wins when Ken Shamrock interferes and screws Goldy (ah ah, swerve). Severn is the Double Crown winner, Goldy feud with Shamrock in matches that involves blood, stiff kicks and cages while Severn defends his title against Big Poppa Pump in matche involving cool mat wrestling, suplexes and slapping around (and cheats to win, of course). Then we eventually get the big rematch and Goldy wins the Double Crown obviously. Shit, I would love my WCW.

[Loss]

I think they should have gone the New Japan route and paid a bunch of shooter types to do jobs to him. People thought Goldberg was more "real" than everyone else, which is what got him over. So that would have just added to it. Goldberg vs Don Frye would have been awesome. Shamrock coming in and doing a job after leaving the WWF would have been a nice touch too.

 

The whole concept of tough guys - and the innate desire of wrestling fans to see someone take an ass whuppin' - is one of the things most lost on the modern scene.

No one would have known any of them though. It worked in Japan because shoot stuff was popular there. Only the top boxers would have worked, but Evander Holyfield wasn't going to be taking a jackhammer.

 

WCW had Goldberg go through WCW's tough guys instead like Meng, Giant, etc., and it worked well.

 

You introduce them first, just like you do anyone else who's trying to be pushed. I'm surprised that I'm really having to explain that wrestlers have to be introduced to an audience before people know who they are.

 

It's funny that you mention Meng, because his tough guy rep is not known to a vast majority of fans.

[Ditch]

The way they booked Meng in the last few years, along with his persona/style, did establish his toughness. But they never let him get wins over ANY stars. It was all jobbers.

[Loss]

The way they booked Meng in the last few years, along with his persona/style, did establish his toughness. But they never let him get wins over ANY stars. It was all jobbers.

I always thought the announcers should have told the bar stories.

[rzombie1988]

I think they should have gone the New Japan route and paid a bunch of shooter types to do jobs to him. People thought Goldberg was more "real" than everyone else, which is what got him over. So that would have just added to it. Goldberg vs Don Frye would have been awesome. Shamrock coming in and doing a job after leaving the WWF would have been a nice touch too.

 

The whole concept of tough guys - and the innate desire of wrestling fans to see someone take an ass whuppin' - is one of the things most lost on the modern scene.

No one would have known any of them though. It worked in Japan because shoot stuff was popular there. Only the top boxers would have worked, but Evander Holyfield wasn't going to be taking a jackhammer.

 

WCW had Goldberg go through WCW's tough guys instead like Meng, Giant, etc., and it worked well.

 

You introduce them first, just like you do anyone else who's trying to be pushed. I'm surprised that I'm really having to explain that wrestlers have to be introduced to an audience before people know who they are.

 

It's funny that you mention Meng, because his tough guy rep is not known to a vast majority of fans.

 

But why put all that effort, money and time into a guy who is going to get squashed, won't be known and won't appear again?

 

I wasn't wise to wrestling until around 2001 or so but as a mark I could tell you that Meng was probably the #1 person I wouldn't try my luck with. The Giant might have chokeslammed me but Meng was going to rip my throat out. The announcers really pushed him as a bad mofo as well.

[Loss]

But why put all that effort, money and time into a guy who is going to get squashed, won't be known and won't appear again?

To get Goldberg even more over.

 

This is how wrestling has always worked. Heels are built up strong to be fed to babyfaces.

 

And of course they get wins on the way up.

 

Just like New Japan.

[evilclown]

Severn is the Double Crown winner, Goldy feud with Shamrock in matches that involves blood, stiff kicks and cages while Severn defends his title against Big Poppa Pump in matche involving cool mat wrestling, suplexes and slapping around (and cheats to win, of course). Then we eventually get the big rematch and Goldy wins the Double Crown obviously. Shit, I would love my WCW.

I love this as fantasy booking until I remember how wretched Dan Severn was.

[blueminister]

Given how far away Goldberg's actual wrestling was from shootstyle (I mean, did a kneebar occasionally I guess? Does being lead to the ring by security count as a shootstyle entrance?) and how little interest there was in UFC by the time he became a star I guess I don't get the need to bring in actual MMA guys. Much better idea than the aimlessness they went with, though

[Loss]

Maybe even guys with completely worked barfighting gimmicks. I don't think they necessarily had to be MMA, just clearly guys that were "tougher" than the regulars. WCW production probably couldn't pull this off without it looking hokey, but a fan sending in shaky footage of a Goldberg bar fight, with Goldberg having a shiner and not wanting to talk about it, would be an interesting angle. Tough Guy Who Gave Goldberg A Shiner would come out of the crowd one week and take credit for it. They'd have a pull apart and eventually a match. Maybe he beats up someone expendable to hype up the match a little bit. Maybe he has buddies that joined him. Anyway, building the promotion around Goldberg's strengths is the key.