Dave Meltzer stuff

[Loss]

We have a Savage thread that talks about it and pretty much shreds it as a bullshit story/theory.

 

John

I thought it was bull for the longest time, but assuming Vince found out years later, that changes the initial conclusion. What is for sure is that something happened to the point where Vince won't make amends, which is unusual for a guy who is always willing to do business with enemies. It's quite telling that Lanny won't deny the rumors. It's likely that he doesn't know one way or the other, but it's doubtful anyone can negate those rumors seasoning Vince found out years later.

 

All that really shows is that Vince believes it to be true.

[KrisZ]

I know there was a lot going on this week but I really hope Dave puts together a better Buck Robley obit.....he did a decent summary but missed a lot

[jdw]

Savage thread was here:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=8488

 

Rumor stuff starts up part way through page one.

 

I loved how it morphed as original "facts" proved factually incorrect (i.e. Steph's age, that it was the reason Macho was fired, etc) to the point that I was able to drop the Jumbo Was Lazy spot in it in reference to another Wrestling Story that kept morphing as one version after another was factually incorrect, so it needed to be revised to a New Truth.

 

Don't jump ahead because you need the context of the name being dropped earlier in the thread, but as a teaser: my favorite part of the thread is on Page 9 when two years later Bix drags over new comments by Oliver Copp that was generate a (i) a WTF?!?! moment based on Dave's earlier citing of Oliver as the Keeper of The Truth on the story, and (ii) a multi-poster kicking in the nuts of Oliver for what a douchebag he was in what he said.

 

"I had no idea Oliver hated women so much."

-Bix

 

Oh... and SLL's post diagnosing Vince was an all-time classic.

 

John

[jdw]

BTW... maybe Dave can win his Pulitzer with a little investigative journalism on Savage Banged Young Steph.

[evilclown]

Wow, I didn't hear Buck Robley died. Not to be flip, but I'm starting to think being interviewed for my 80's book is not good for your health. Or else, that's just wrestling.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

Savage thread was here:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=8488

 

Rumor stuff starts up part way through page one.

 

I loved how it morphed as original "facts" proved factually incorrect (i.e. Steph's age, that it was the reason Macho was fired, etc) to the point that I was able to drop the Jumbo Was Lazy spot in it in reference to another Wrestling Story that kept morphing as one version after another was factually incorrect, so it needed to be revised to a New Truth.

 

Don't jump ahead because you need the context of the name being dropped earlier in the thread, but as a teaser: my favorite part of the thread is on Page 9 when two years later Bix drags over new comments by Oliver Copp that was generate a (i) a WTF?!?! moment based on Dave's earlier citing of Oliver as the Keeper of The Truth on the story, and (ii) a multi-poster kicking in the nuts of Oliver for what a douchebag he was in what he said.

 

"I had no idea Oliver hated women so much."

-Bix

 

Oh... and SLL's post diagnosing Vince was an all-time classic.

 

John

Loss, correct.

 

John, yeah, the age part was an obvious exaggeration, and I remember making that a talking point when I went against this hypothesis years ago. What I will say, however, is that this hypothesis is not as absurd as it was once presented since Meltzer wrote about it, Lanny doesn't deny it (not that he confirmed it), Meltzer knew about this rumor before the sleaze thread begun, that Vince's inner circle from a decade ago felt that it's true, and that no one has come forward since to say that it was a rib or propaganda. In fairness to Savage, he strikes me as a schizoid type who was very hard to do business with. So that opens the possibility that there could have been any number of issues where Vince would no longer want to do business with him on any grounds. But that's the key. Vince's mentality seems unconditional, which is unusual given Vince's past history.

 

Sek's psychological diagnosis of Vince is funny, though I don't agree. It's not Vince's job to be a moral crusader, and the fact is that he wouldn't have been successful had he been a moral crusader. I remember Meltzer arguing in the Observer once that wrestlers would get off roids if Vince would just job them out. True. But they could also go to the competition and make their fortunes there. People like big bodies, and big bodies sell. The fact that so many wrestlers do blow their money on drugs and die while off contract would make Vince less sympathetic. I'm not saying that he's right, but his mentality isn't unusual. Vince, however, does seem manic, and his continual pushing/de-pushing of guys and incessant, unnecessary rewriting of shows points to that. But Vince likely wouldn't qualify as a clinical sociopath. He would have blown all the company's profits by then. He is probably a narcissist however.

 

One very cutthroat thing Vince did is bring Melanie Pillman on Raw to shift the burden from WWE to her husband's poor life choices when the truth, whether Pillman wished for this or not, is that Pillman had no business being on the road.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

Art Barr's obit talked about his statutory rape issue and his issues. Curt Hennig's had some stuff that was unflattering, though perhaps Dave thought they were "wrestling stories" that he could run with. The Pillman piece was pretty brutal.

 

That Savage didn't go back was a topic Dave covered. He's talked about it on his boards, and on his radio show. But he's unwilling to put it in the WON.

 

John

What did Meltzer write about Hennig? I think I read that bio years ago but forgot the details. I remember something like Meltzer interviewing Ken Patera, who said he'd golf with Hennig, who'd take 20 pain pills, smoke several joints, and drink a six-pack all by 12 PM. Is that what you're referring to?

[Johnny Sorrow]

Art Barr's obit talked about his statutory rape issue and his issues. Curt Hennig's had some stuff that was unflattering, though perhaps Dave thought they were "wrestling stories" that he could run with. The Pillman piece was pretty brutal.

 

That Savage didn't go back was a topic Dave covered. He's talked about it on his boards, and on his radio show. But he's unwilling to put it in the WON.

 

John

What did Meltzer write about Hennig? I think I read that bio years ago but forgot the details. I remember something like Meltzer interviewing Ken Patera, who said he'd golf with Hennig, who'd take 20 pain pills, smoke several joints, and drink a six-pack all by 12 PM. Is that what you're referring to?

 

Not for nothin', but ditch the pain pills and that sounds like a fun day of golf.

[Slasher]

Art Barr's obit talked about his statutory rape issue and his issues. Curt Hennig's had some stuff that was unflattering, though perhaps Dave thought they were "wrestling stories" that he could run with. The Pillman piece was pretty brutal.

 

That Savage didn't go back was a topic Dave covered. He's talked about it on his boards, and on his radio show. But he's unwilling to put it in the WON.

 

John

What did Meltzer write about Hennig? I think I read that bio years ago but forgot the details. I remember something like Meltzer interviewing Ken Patera, who said he'd golf with Hennig, who'd take 20 pain pills, smoke several joints, and drink a six-pack all by 12 PM. Is that what you're referring to?

 

Not for nothin', but ditch the pain pills and that sounds like a fun day of golf.

 

Yeah unless you were a straight edged sort of dude, this is pretty much what guys do. They take drugs (that aren't the hardcore type), they drink and they go out and do stuff. Hard to see that being the unflattering bit on Hennig, if that's what it was intended to be. Yes, 20 pain pills is something to raise an eyebrow about perhaps, but this is a professional wrestler with injury issues we are talking about here.

[khawk20]

I'm starting to think being interviewed for my 80's book is not good for your health.

Can you interview Buck Zumhofe next?

[evilclown]

I'm starting to think being interviewed for my 80's book is not good for your health.

Can you interview Buck Zumhofe next?

 

It's not fool proof. Jim Ross is still alive and kicking despite several strong efforts on my part.

[khawk20]

As long as you keep trying.

[cm funk]

The idea that they were "heating" Henry up is laughable.

They did heat him up. He was totally booked as the babyface leading up to WM against Ryback, then he beat Ryback, then he was even more of a babyface in the build up to the match with Sheamus.

 

What's laughable is the way WWE books things, and I don't blame Henry for telling them to go fuck themselves. He did the best with what he had to work with. The last several months of Mark Henry programs have been entertaining despite the horrible booking.

[cm funk]

As far as the Savage-Steph stuff goes, I'm almost 99% certain that it happened. I was really skeptical when the rumor first came up years ago, and people were like "but he was out of the company already!" and no, he was in the company until fall of 94, which is right about the time she turned 18. And Vince actually gave him a heartfelt goodbye, which was completely out of character for him and WWF at the time

 

He had sex with Vince's daughter and left the company. Vince may let go of grudges, but man, I actually can't blame the man for still being pissed about this

[Johnny Guitar]

As far as the Savage-Steph stuff goes, I'm almost 99% certain that it happened. I was really skeptical when the rumor first came up years ago, and people were like "but he was out of the company already!" and no, he was in the company until fall of 94, which is right about the time she turned 18. And Vince actually gave him a heartfelt goodbye, which was completely out of character for him and WWF at the time

 

He had sex with Vince's daughter and left the company. Vince may let go of grudges, but man, I actually can't blame the man for still being pissed about this

As far as I remember the Savage/Steph stuff came up during the DVDR sleaze thread. Which although may have contained some truth. But was mostly bullshit rumor's and wish fullfillment.

 

It was one of those things that people were desparate to belive was true. So wether it was or not it took on a life of it's own.

[Dylan Waco]

Where is the evidence on the Steph/Randy stuff?

 

I don't think it's impossible at all, but if someone is going to say they are 99% sure it's true I would hope they have more than just "well Vince never worked with Randy again and he worked with everyone else and Lanny didn't say it was definitely false so..."

[cm funk]

Where is the evidence on the Steph/Randy stuff?

 

I don't think it's impossible at all, but if someone is going to say they are 99% sure it's true I would hope they have more than just "well Vince never worked with Randy again and he worked with everyone else and Lanny didn't say it was definitely false so..."

there is no evidence, that is why almost 20 years later people are still speculating about it

 

I tend to think, which I've thought for a while, now that Meltzer is turning a corner and pretty much saying yeah, this happened, that yeah, this probably did happen. He argued the point for a long time.

[jdw]

Art Barr's obit talked about his statutory rape issue and his issues. Curt Hennig's had some stuff that was unflattering, though perhaps Dave thought they were "wrestling stories" that he could run with. The Pillman piece was pretty brutal.

 

That Savage didn't go back was a topic Dave covered. He's talked about it on his boards, and on his radio show. But he's unwilling to put it in the WON.

 

John

What did Meltzer write about Hennig? I think I read that bio years ago but forgot the details. I remember something like Meltzer interviewing Ken Patera, who said he'd golf with Hennig, who'd take 20 pain pills, smoke several joints, and drink a six-pack all by 12 PM. Is that what you're referring to?

 

It's been years since I've read it as well. But I wasn't making an analogy of:

 

Barr's Dirt = Curt's Dirt = Pillman's Dirt

 

Because obviously Dave didn't write about Pillman committing statutory rape. He just wrote openly about Pillman being an addict and other fucked up things about what a mess his life was.

 

Given the "wrestling stories" in quotes, my recollection is that it was some stuff that made Curt come across as an asshole or drunken asshole. I don't recall if it was the Clique level of shitting in Sunny's food, but some such nonsense like that that (i) wasn't the type of stuff Dave usually put in obits, (ii) wasn't really needed, (iii) was unflattering to Curt.

 

As far as Dope, that's something Dave always talked about in obits once he got down his Obit Format, and started running into so many people dropping dead because of dope. So talking about Curt doing dope never would have stood out to me.

[jdw]

John, yeah, the age part was an obvious exaggeration, and I remember making that a talking point when I went against this hypothesis years ago.

It wasn't an exaggeration. It was a central part of the Original Version of the Story:

 

Sleaze Thread:

 

68. Macho Man had his way with Stephanie (she was about 14 then) back in 94/95 and that Vince found out and that was the true ending for Macho Man in WWF.

As was that it was the reason Macho got fired.

 

 

 

What I will say, however, is that this hypothesis is not as absurd as it was once presented since Meltzer wrote about it,

Dave writing about it means... what?

 

Dave just wrote about Kobashi where a number of things were factually wrong. Now it's possible two things happened:

 

- Dave did the research

 

Which means Dave's research was shit. That's possible, but doesn't seem likely. Some of the stuff I pointed to was kind of obscure, and hard to find / takes some effort to find. It's not the stuff he'd look up.

 

- someone told Dave these "facts"

 

Okay... so Someone fucked up on what they gave Dave. Happens. All the fucking time.

 

So Dave writing about something isn't evidence of Fact. :/

 

 

Lanny doesn't deny it (not that he confirmed it),

I don't think Lanny wants to touch that one. What good can come of it?

 

 

Meltzer knew about this rumor before the sleaze thread begun,

Actually, I thought Bix's found out that Dave didn't learn of this until after it popped up in the Sleaze Thread... which was a really fucking old thread.

 

 

that Vince's inner circle from a decade ago felt that it's true,

"By gawd, Dave... Savage

fucked Steph up the ass!"

 

"Don't tell anyone you got this from me, but...

Steph tossed Macho's salad."

 

I mean... it's the wrestling business. They're wrong about shit all the time.

 

 

and that no one has come forward since to say that it was a rib or propaganda.

"Obama hasn't shown his birth certificate.

He's a Keynan Muslim Socialist!"

 

 

John

[jdw]

Where is the evidence on the Steph/Randy stuff?

 

I don't think it's impossible at all, but if someone is going to say they are 99% sure it's true I would hope they have more than just "well Vince never worked with Randy again and he worked with everyone else and Lanny didn't say it was definitely false so..."

It's isn't impossible, just like it isn't impossible that Vince, Pat and Hulk had a three-way in the locker room before Wrestlemania 3. I mean... no one has denied that they had a threesome, and they were all in the same building together!

 

Seriously, what Dylan said. There is not evidence. Just speculation by people whose sources are liars in a lying business talking about three people who are lying nuts.

[Dylan Waco]

That JR caption is wonderful

 

Also I keep waiting for John to drop by the Kobashi bio thread Yohe started at Classics and it hasn't happened to my great dismay

[jdw]

Hell... I didn't even know there was one.

[jdw]

Hell... I don't want to crap on other people's fun over there. It's not like they're actually discussing the content of it at all. :/

[KrisZ]

Steering this away from this topic......Dave is currently going off right now on Twitter about UFC announcing Stephan Bonner for their HOF.

 

Bonner of the 8-7 record and zero title fights.

[Death From Above]

There seem to be several hall of fames attempting to give the Rock and Roll HOF a run for complete irrelevance and strange decisions.