FLIK Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Heh, i'm surprised people are shocked by this. "Edge Sux" is a pretty minority opinion which is fine, to each his own but most people do really like the guy and yeah, I forget the exact amount but he's pretty up thear on the list of guys Meltzer's given the most 4*+ ratings to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 I like Edge quite a bit. He's just not a Hall of Fame guy. There are guys like Sting that aren't in that have more historical significance than Edge ever will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 I've always been puzzled by the degree of vitriol Edge inspired at places like DVDVR. I don't particularly like the guy, but I found most of his work to fall well within the range of Perfectly Acceptable Wrestling. And I'm apparently the only person on Earth who never had any trouble buying the spear as a finisher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 BTW... where is the Edge stuff coming from? Did he talk about his HOF candidacy on WO-4 Live? Or on the boards? If it was in the WON in a HOF preview, I must of overlooked it when skimming. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 BTW... where is the Edge stuff coming from? Did he talk about his HOF candidacy on WO-4 Live? Or on the boards? If it was in the WON in a HOF preview, I must of overlooked it when skimming. John Dave, Bryan and Bruce Mitchell did a HOF show yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 I thought Edge was decent enough and a pretty good gimmick match worker through 06. Bt late08 the overacting and shitty aspects of his work became all consuming. No problem with spear as finisher, though his looked really weak the last few years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kostka Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 I think Cena vs Edge Summerslam 06 was the peak of Edge as a worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 He mentioned it in his HOF radio discussion show with Bruce and Bryan, but it's been a talking point of his ever since someone tallied up all the PPV matches he's rated above ****+, which ignores that a lot of those matches were stunt shows or matches where his opponent was clearly the better worker. I think Edge was a perfectly fine WWE main event style worker, but I don't think that should be enough to get in on it's own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 I thought Edge was decent enough and a pretty good gimmick match worker through 06. Bt late08 the overacting and shitty aspects of his work became all consuming. No problem with spear as finisher, though his looked really weak the last few years I only disliked the Spear as a finisher because I felt the Downward Spiral and Implant DDT were better finishers that he could've used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 I have no problem with Meltzer using his personal rankings to tout Edge by the way, though the fact that he quotes them like a fundamentalist Christian quotes scripture to "prove" Dinosaurs never roamed the Earth is amusing to me. Meltzer's snow flakes are ultimately representative of his views alone. Yes he is an opinion shaper, but citing those star ratings means nothing other than "these are matches Meltzer likes." Citing DVDVR 80's results should have far more merit, not because I am a participant either. But because it is something that is based on a broad group of people with different interest and taste. Fujiwara has something like 15 appearances in the NJPW top 50 as voted upon by 50 people with very diverse tastes. 9 of those 15 are in the top 25. 8 in the top fifteen. 5 in the top ten. 4 in the top five, including the second highest rated singles match on the Set, as well as being a key performer in the Gauntlet that finished first. This is ignoring his Other Japan Set status. Does anyone think a poll of 00's WWE spread across a large base of people would conclude that Edge was in 15 of the top 50 matches? 9 of the top 15? 8 of the top fifteen? 5 in the top ten? 4 in the top five? Possibly, but I doubt it, especially every about the 15/50 metric. And that is ignoring the fact that most "smart fans" would favor NJPW in the 80's to WWE in the 00's by a safe margin (or so I would guess). Fujiwara isn't even on the ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 If a vote on WWE 00s was conducted in 2011, Edge would not do as well as Fujiwara did in the DVDVR 80s NJPW Poll. On the other hand, I think we'd all agree that if a 80s NJPW Poll was conducted in 1991, Fujiwara wouldn't do remotely as well. In addition, the majority of his high ranking matches (think Usual Suspect) would see the credit be given to other people in the matches (think Usual Suspects and/or Hardcore Favorites). I'm not saying that in 2031 that a poll of the hardcore intelligentsia on WWE 00s Matches is going to think Edge is the greatest thing since sliced bread. But if you compare how Fujiwara and Sayama were viewed in 1991 with how 50 folks in 2011, of which probably less than 10% watched them in the 80s, view them... yeah, anything in possible. It's quite possible that as fan-fucking-tastic and brilliant we are, folks in 2031 will think we're exactly as full-o-shit as a fair number of us think folks in the 80s and early 90s were about Sayama and Fujiwara. So I get the point, and no doubt it's similar to ones that I've a few hundred times while having views different to the Old Consensus. But yeah... it's possible we and the folks who love Mark Henry's work are the ones who will be showing ass and bumping in 20 years. Edge could be viewed as the greatest PPV worker of all time. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 That's even more of an argument against Edge than the point I was driving at. There is no distance at all between the peak of his career and the present or none of any note. Voting him in now is senseless by either standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 That's a slightly different issue that I think we all agree on: It's fucking batshit crazy that a 37 year old Edge would even be on the ballot. It's a known flaw in eligibility that Dave simply refuses to fix. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 I think Dave said it, to him Edge is HOF. So... But yeah, agreed about what John said about what could happen 20 years from now. To me the trends (don't jump on me) that appear and disappear are as interesting as the proper results of GOAT talks at one given point. Wrestling analysis needs some serious historiography at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Edge may be really good in the ring for all I know. He was such a terrible promo and had such exaggerated facial expressions that I could never look past it. I enjoyed him as an upper midcarder who did comedy though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 So, Edge is probably the N°1 or 2 guy as far as number of great matches on TV, commanded the audience in a way Dave barely ever saw before, and was a great worker. So, what is Dave smoking exactly ? Are you sure he didnt mean Eddy and not Edge? Just listened to the show a few hrs ago, Dave was actually talking about Jericho when he made that statement, in refrence to Jericho's most recent run before he left again, specifically the Shawn feud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 So, Edge is probably the N°1 or 2 guy as far as number of great matches on TV, commanded the audience in a way Dave barely ever saw before, and was a great worker. So, what is Dave smoking exactly ? Are you sure he didnt mean Eddy and not Edge? Just listened to the show a few hrs ago, Dave was actually talking about Jericho when he made that statement, in refrence to Jericho's most recent run before he left again, specifically the Shawn feud Really ? Aww man... sorry me. Feel like an idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 For some reason Alvarez is convinced Jericho & Edge have virtually identical careers so that's how the subject came up. Just to touch on a few other points Didn't you know rovert, that he's better than Dick Murdoch? Meltzer actually said he thought at his peak Murdoch was better but Edge was more consistent and a bigger star so that's what put him over the top in his eyes using the "well if Murdoch is the measuring stick" line of thinking. Thinking about it, in a sort of similar way Edge might be a good choice to use as the gatekeeper for this generation. The guy who has more then enough qualifications to stand on his own as a worthy candidate but isn't a slam dunk the way others are. Someone you can point to if you wanna use the "if they're better then him they're in, if not then no" argument. Does anyone think a poll of 00's WWE spread across a large base of people would conclude that Edge was in 15 of the top 50 matches? Unfair comparison I think. There's a ton more WWE footage available in the 00's then there is 80's New Japan and there's a larger pool of wrestlers with consistent quality work so the competition would be spread out more and a lot harder. Narrowing things down, I don't think there's many years whear Edge was active for most of it that he wouldn't be in several of the top matches that year. There is no distance at all between the peak of his career and the present or none of any note. True, I actually think Edge would benefit a lot from ppl taking time to revisit his career in the future instead of rushing to judgement now. At present he has this rep in some ppl's eyes as "only good in gimmick matches" which 1) so what? To me I enjoy gimmick matches a lot so that's a + and I view those types of things as a diffrent way to work not an easier way. I've seen more then enough shitty hardcore matches to know that just cause you add a few weapons or big bumps does not = quality on it's own. and 2) him only being a good gimmick worker is false anyways. He's had a more then enough good to great normal matches to back that up if people took a closer look I feel. Really a more accurate statement to make is that his most famous matches are all gimmick matches but in that sense he's a victim of being a main eventer in the age of theme ppvs whear all the top guys are forced to work a large # of high profile ladder/cage/table/hardcore matches each year. Most of his quality non gimmick stuff is on week to week tv or lesser ppvs that are easier to forget over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 Poor Dave. This week on the F4W board has been hilarous with people (largely dont seem to understand the HOF) arguing to the death over Sting's candidacy with some really marky stuff. THEN Someone bumps an old megathread about Big Daddy and he finally snaps: The Hall of Fame is about: 1) Great workers 2) Top tier drawing cards (with the numbers to prove it) 3) Figures important historically in a positive manner. People get all hung up on drawing power to exclude great workers not getting the criteria. IT'S NOT THE HALL OF GUYS WHO GOT BIG PUSHES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 So Great Workers is the number one criteria now or am I reading that wrong? If I'm not I will start going to bat for a shit ton of other guys who aren't even on the ballot. Re: Flik, it may be entirely true that Edge comes across better in ten years time than he does now. It wouldn't be the first time I have changed my opinion on a wrestler and I wouldn't rule it out. Having said that I'm really struggling to come up with non-gimmick matches Edge was in that I thought were very good-to-great and I am almost certainly the biggest fanboy of the modern WWE in ring product on this board. Not saying they don't exist but none come to mind off the top of my head. For the record his match v. Matt Hardy at Unforgiven 05 in the Cage is no worse than top five WWE match of all time in my view and I am really high on his TLC match with Cena so by no means am I saying the guy didn't have strong matches and performances. I just don't see any way he can be considered a sure fire Hall of Famer and I think here are plenty of guys not on the ballot currently who are as good or better candidates. My buddy Dave Musgrave and I had this exchange at the DVDVR and I think it is a fair one. I think Edge should go in. He has been a part of some key programs in the past 15 years in WWE including the TLC matches, the Smackdown 6 program, his singles feuds with Angle and Matt Hady and especially John Cena. Cena is the biggest star in the company at this point but it wasn't until working with Edge as his heel counterpoint throught 2006 that he really turned the corner. This goes from when Edge won the title from him in January 2006, enjoying a ratings increase showing him to be a draw by that criteria, through the three-way feud with RVD and then the main events betwen Cena and Edge at Summerlams and then Unforgiven, the TLC match I saw live in Toronto that was great. Since that time, Edge has been a key component of WWE as a heel and as a babyface and while his insane amoung of World titles does not translate to the same as in pre-1990, it at the vcery least would be the equivalent of being a three-time World Champion. I don't cite acting ability for him but do think he was a good promo. He has been part of the main event scene in world title matches at four Wrestlemanias. While other matches were pushed as the top draw at those shows, it is still important. And he was a key in establishing the Money In the Bank gimmmick, which while it has had pluses and minuses, is a big part of WWE. I think Luger should go in. He was a part of some key programs over his fifteen year career, including the tag matches with Barry v. Arn/Tully, his widely acclaimed 89 heel run as U.S. champion, the "is he a heel" team with Sting and especially his feud with Ric Flair. Flair was the biggest star in the company at that point, but the Luger house show series was a strong boost to business and even did well opposite Vince in several of his key towns. This ran hot through the Summer of 88, finishing up with a strong crowd at Starrcade and the much more critically acclaimed Flair v. Steamboat series that kicked off 89 did weak business by comparison. From that point forward Luger was a key component of WCW as a heel and as a babyface and while his World title runs were mostly transitional or back-up plans it at the very least is a sign that the company saw him as a top player. I wouldn't call Luger a strong character throughout his career, but during two different periods he was unquestionably strong in that regard and a good promo. He was part of the main event scene at a Wrestlemania and seven Starrcades. While other matches were pushed as the top draw in all but one or two of those shows, it is still important. He was also a key in establishing the bodybuilder look that has become so prevalent in wrestling, which while it is has had pluses and minuses, is a big part of the WWE. Now of course I don't really think Luger should go in. And I could see how someone would think Edge was a better candidate. But what I don't see is why someone would think Edge is a *much* better candidate. Which leads me to ask the follow questions: Should Lex Luger be a slam dunk for the HoF? If not why should a candidate marginally better than him be a slam dunk? Is Luger the cut off mark where guys slightly better deserve to be in? If so, should a guy slightly better than Luger be voted in immediately upon retirement, over guys who have been waiting around forever, and without the time to properly reflect? Of course all of this assumes people agree with my calculus of Luger as rough equal of Edge. And if you don't that's fine. Just tell me why I'm wrong. As for the NJPW comp I'm not sure how it can be seen as unfair, at least in the sense you argue it is. I would venture to guess the great majority of people would conclude 80's NJPW was better than 00's WWE (hell even I probably would) so while Edge has more competition, Fujiwara has tougher competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Be prepared for the marking out by Meltz & Chico over Chael Sonnen's post match promo tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Be prepared for the marking out by Meltz & Chico over Chael Sonnen's post match promo tonight. Halloween Havoc 1994 revisited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Having said that I'm really struggling to come up with non-gimmick matches Edge was in that I thought were very good-to-great and I am almost certainly the biggest fanboy of the modern WWE in ring product on this board. Not saying they don't exist but none come to mind off the top of my head. Well, there's the whole "Smackdown 6 era" Blanking on dates but years later I recall strong matches vs Orton, Michaels, Jericho, Rey, Benoit, etc... I know i've seen atleast 1 good match vs Cena that was non gimmick Really liked Undertaker match from Mania As for the NJPW comp I'm not sure how it can be seen as unfair, at least in the sense you argue it is. To me it's an apples & oranges type thing. Leaving quality out of the equation since my point wasn't really about who had the better wrestling. New Japan in the 1980's had 1 weekly tv, WWF for most of the 00's has had at minimum 4 + 1 to 2 ppvs a month + the ocasional extra TV special. I just looked at the NJPW set results (or atleast the top 50 or so) and you lagely start seeing the same group of guys over and over again after a while with a few exceptions mixed in, I don't think that would be the case for WWF. Just based on sheer volume I don't think you could exspect Edge or any other wrestler to dominate the top of a WWE list this decade the same way a Fujiwara or Fujinami or Inoki or Choshu did in the 80's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 The thing with the Smackdown 6 is as a worker, I think most people would agree he was behind Benoit, Eddy, Rey and Angle as a worker, but above Chavo. Fifth best worker out of six, in a legendary but short series of matches, isn't overly impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Be prepared for the marking out by Meltz & Chico over Chael Sonnen's post match promo tonight. Be prepared for the Cageside Seats post pointing out he's not licensed in Las Vegas, Nevada yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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