The Thread Killer

I hate when this happens, but I agree with . I don't think anybody was really "right" in this situation. It was a "heel angle."

What the hell? Who said anything about Cena, Mark Henry, Kane or Heath Slater? The quote was by Orton, I don't know why you're dragging other names into it. If that quote is to be believed, Randy Orton thinks he is suddenly now in a position to judge what is and isn't appropriate or respectful behavior backstage. That is laughable. This is a guy who admitted that he once fired up a joint in the arena before a televised show, in front of everybody, as a "fuck you" to the office and the wellness policy and to see if they'd do something about it. Not to mention his rumored behavior towards the Divas early in his career. And the fact that he reportedly whined when people were too stiff with him. (If Bubba Dudley and Bob Holly are to be believed.) In short, I don't know when Randy Orton became the expert on backstage etiquette or "respect for the business." Even if he is a changed man now, him acting like he's the new grizzled vet backstage is a bit rich, considering his history. If I was new to the WWE, one of the first people I'd get advice from would be Mark Henry. Lord knows that dude has side stepped (and stepped on) his share of political landmines over the years.

Exactly. I don't even like Kevin Owens one little bit, but I have so much more respect for him than I do for a guy like Orton. Owens got himself trained, and spent years and years wrestling in armories and high school gyms for next to no money, in front of next to no people. Out of love of the business. I'll never forget seeing Kevin Steen bust his ass wrestling in front of a few hundred people at a county fair, and he hustled that night. Guys like him have paid dues twice over and don't owe guys like Orton a damn thing. Meanwhile Orton spends a whopping year and a half in OVW, and spends the rest of his career on the gravy train, racking up a reputation for being a Class A Douche-nozzle in the process - but guys like Owens or Styles or Zayn are supposed to going to him for advice? If anything, it should be the other way around and Orton should be asking those guys what it's like to have to really pay your dues or work for the love of it. Orton is such a damn dolt.

Exactly. The only point I want to make is that fat people are unpleasant to look at, and are therefore less deserving of love and/or social acceptance than attractive people. Especially if they're also poor.

THANK YOU! I don't know who is laying out these matches, but WTF? I've been amazed at the amount of rest holds I've been seeing in the CW matches. At first, I just blamed Tony Nese (which I still do, to a point) but he's not the only who has been doing it. These guys are slapping on rear-chinlocks like they're Randy Freaking Orton.

I used to think that, for sure. But if NXT is what Triple H's version of WWE would be like, then sign me up.

That impression seemed loud and clear with Shane's responses concerning Trips on that podcast he did with Foley after his return. That's what I thought at the time...Shane seemed visibly unimpressed with Triple H, but when I mentioned it here, people suggested the whole thing was a work. I didn't think it was, since they tend to be more shooty and less worky on those podcasts, but these are wrestlers, so who ever really knows?

Hmmm... this shit is awesome, what are you talking about? It ran its course a while ago. Styles seemed to make some silly comedy out of it last night, but beyond that there's nothing you can do with Ellsworth at this point. Well past the sell by date. Exactly. Even if you are easily entertained and found this angle amusing at it's onset, it has been ridden well past the point where it's still fresh or has anything to offer.

I wonder if being bogged down in this seemingly never-ending Dean Ambrose/James Ellsworth mess isn't hurting Styles, as well. I was hoping he would be on to a fresh new angle/opponent by now, instead of still piddling around with this mess.

You really need to learn to spell Snuka correctly.

Oh good gawd. I don't think I'm ready to hear Stephanie McMahon's version of history on anything. "The McMahon family founded the United States sometime before 1940. After that, nothing important happened in the world, until the United States government tried to unfairly imprison my father for no reason whatsoever. And then Ted Turner tried to put my family out of business for no reason whatsoever. Despite being cruelly persecuted, the McMahon's gave a lot of money to charity, because it's an excellent branding and marketing opportunity. Oh and also, it helps sick children, or something like that."

That was horrible to watch. I am assuming they meant to powerbomb one guy onto the other guy, and didn't mean for their heads to make contact, but when you plan out stupid unnecessarily risky spots, this is what happens. I really hope both those guys are okay.

That's the problem. I don't even know what "Strong Style" really is. If you say "ECW style" I expect broken tables and fire and crowd brawls. If you say "Lucha style" then I expect a lot of intricate, complex, multi-man spots and dives through the ropes. If you said "Worked shoot style" I expect a lot of grappling and submission attempts, and not so much (or any) high flying. If you say "King's Road" I (unfortunately) expect hard elbow strikes, hard chops, and people getting suplexed onto the top of their heads. Because I didn't watch a lot of NJPW Heavyweights (except for Hashimoto) I never really understood what Strong Style was supposed to mean anyhow, which is why I assumed it was a NJPW marketing thing.

I had never heard "Strong Style" used as a description of anything other than the wrestling style used by the heavyweights in New Japan Pro Wrestling, "invented" by Inoki. Just like people referred to the guys in All Japan wrestling "King's Road Style." I always assumed it was a marketing term exclusive to New Japan. I figured it was getting traction in North America now because of Nakamura calling himself the King of Strong Style.

Yeah but American Alpha have been kinda meh since they got called up, IMO. They always seem like they're trying too hard. Plus, they ain't hype.

Tony Nese gets in the opening match of the debut episode of 205 Live, and he does it again! Rear chinlock, laying down no less! SO BORING! I really dug the opening episode of 205 Live though, and I was glad to see the crowd was into it.

Thirded on Owens. He's one of the main reasons I don't enjoy Raw. I don't get his appeal, I really don't. Goofy look, middling promos at best, and boring as hell in the ring. If they ever do pull the trigger on an actual program between he and Jericho, I don't hold out much hope for the quality of the matches, I'll tell you that. Oh and one other thing... So Cedric Alexander gets the loudest reaction from the crowd to date for a Raw CW match. So of course, Cedric gets beat in his hometown, because WWE. But my other bitch is, this is a cruiserweight match on television, where they only have a few scant minutes. Tony "I have a head the size of Andre The Giant's head" Nese decides that an exciting move would be a rear chinlock. But not just any rear chinlock, no. He actually lays down behind Cedric to slap it on, to make sure it's EXTRA boring. WTF?!

Wait, what? That's crazy. So it's not just me, then. Although fair warning: you disagreed with him, so apparently that means you're "attacking" him. Expect a hysterical plea to drop the whole discussion and move on, forthwith.

I don't know if you've read the book by Heath McCoy about Stampede Wrestling, called "Pain & Passion?" (If not, you should. It's really good.) McCoy works as a reporter for the Calgary Sun. He covers Pro Wrestling. In the book, McCoy writes that when Stampede was active, he would report on particular angles or matches if Bruce Hart asked him to. If I remember correctly, McCoy used to actually contact Hart and initiate these deals. One would assume the flip side was that Hart would grant him access at Stampede shows and give interviews when asked. I don't see a problem with any of that. It's symbiotic between the reporter and promoter. I am sure there is a line that needs to be drawn in there somewhere, and that the line might be hard to find sometimes, but I don't have a big issue with it. What I would have an issue with, would be people denying that Heath McCoy is actually a journalist at all, just because he had a relationship with a promoter. I would also question the intelligence of those who were unable to tell the difference between when McCoy was reporting on a story, or helping out a promotion by publicizing an angle by reporting on it. Finally, I would have an issue with anybody who was unable to discern the difference between a journalist who reports on something, and a promoter who usually has a different agenda.

I guess that was my complaint. I'm all for guys being green and inexperienced, but when they can't convincingly pull off something as fundamental as a whip into the corner? I don't think they're ready for TV time yet. Then again, I might just be acting unfair and bitchy. In the poor kid's defense, that match was taped before a major PPV in front of 12,000 + fans. That had to be pretty damn nerve wracking, one would assume. But my gut reaction to seeing him wrestle was "Damn, he's clumsy."

I don't even know what point you're trying to make now. I could care less if somebody calls me a "smart mark." Mark, smart, smart mark, smark...they're all just made up industry terms that don't actually mean anything. I'm a Pro Wrestling fan. If it makes you feel better to classify me as a smart mark, then okay...I'm a smart mark. That doesn't make any of the arguments you've tried to make during this discussion any more valid. You also really can't sit there and make inflammatory statements like "Meltzer is not a Journalist and your not going to convince me otherwise" but then expect people to "move on." As I have said repeatedly, I don't even really like Meltzer all that much. I find him preachy, I don't care for his writing style, and I don't like his MMA fetish. But facts are facts. He has a degree in journalism, and people have paid him money to report on things. Mainstream publications like the New York Times and Sports Illustrated have called him the leading journalist in the field of Pro Wrestling. So for you to now try and argue that he isn't even a journalist means you're either trolling or being unbelievably obtuse.

Meltzer has admitted in the past that he has had conversations with Vince McMahon. I don't think those conversations were quite of the nature that you seem to think they were. Because he is a reporter. He's a journalist. Vince McMahon is a promoter. I find it bizarre that you think that just because Meltzer reports on Pro Wrestling, that he is automatically in the bag for whatever promoter waves a handful of cash under his nose. Putting aside what that implies about his personal code of ethics or his own journalism standards, I'm confused as to how that would even serve any purpose for him. He makes a couple of bucks, but what else good does it do him? Once again, that it is a pretty big accusation to level at a guy who has spent the last 34 years making his living as a journalist. But thank you for explaining to me the relationship between the media and business, because I had no idea how that worked. I find your attitude during this discussion to be puzzling. You have made some fairly brash statements - that you trust the word of Bruce Prichard over that of Dave Meltzer, and that Dave Meltzer takes financial compensation from Pro Wrestling promoters in exchange for good reviews in the Observer. You have claimed that Meltzer is just a tool of the big business of Pro Wrestling. But when I try and disagree with you about that, you react defensively and don't want to talk about it anymore. I was under the assumption that one of the main functions of PWO was to further discussion of Pro Wrestling. Why would you make statements which you would have to know would garner a heated debate...and then withdraw when you get one?

I'm seriously considering quitting the modern product again. I hadn't regularly watched WWE for years, I quit after Triple H went over Booker T at Wrestlemania 19. It wasn't just that Trips went over, it was the racist crap in the lead up to that match, Booker never getting revenge and then the whole deal with how bad Trips made Book look with the delayed cover. Left a really bad taste in my mouth, so I stopped watching WWE. I started again around this past Wrestlemania, but...ugh. That show was gawd awful, and the brand split hasn't really done anything for me. I can't sit through three hours of Raw with Mick Foley and Stephanie, Owens as Champ, The New Day, and the way they've botched the Cruiserweight Division. I do like Jericho (up until the bell rings) but that's not enough to get me to watch that crap anymore. I don't mind SDL, it certainly goes by a lot quicker than Raw, but even still...the only big plus there for me is AJ Styles. And how many times do we have to watch him fight Dean Ambrose? This whole deal with James Ellesworth was mildly amusing for one segment of one show. Now? Ugh, change the channel. I loved the CWC and I think I'll stick with NXT, but the writing on the main roster is so damn bland and uninspiring. There are no good stories being told. I think I'll go back to reading the results online and checking out the PPV's only. It's a shame. I guess if Joe or Nakamura gets called up, I would check that out, but right now otherwise, the creative is just so damn boring. The sad thing is, ROH is just as boring and who the hell even knows what TNA is going to do. I will probably stick to my classics for a while, or find another indie to get into.

So I watched NXT this week. The opener was Rich Swann against Kona Reeves, but the match was cut short by a run-in and beat down from Sanity. All I can say is, they didn't get there soon enough. This Kona Reeves is pretty damn bad. He looked so damn uncoordinated, I could have sworn he almost tripped over his own feet while doing a whip into the corner, and fell flat on his face.

Hey mods...maybe it might be a good idea to move a bunch of these posts into the Dave Meltzer thread in the Megathread folder? I don't want to derail this topic, and a couple of people over there were already discussing the Meltzer/Prichard rivalry, so these points might fit better over there?