goc

#GWEGate

Saw this on 411 where someone had transcribed parts of Kenny Bolin's podcast interview with Vince Russo

Yea what's up with that one?

Not specific wrestlers but one of the big things I don't like about lucha is how sometimes in trios matches it's like they just completely stop enforcing the rules especially in matches where all 3 rudos wind up holding the ring and beating down 1 babyface for long stretches at a time. And to go along with the last one, when one tecnico is getting beat down by all 3 rudos and his partners are selling simple stuff like death because it's not time for them to get back in the ring yet. But I also hate that kind of stuff in U.S. multi-man matches where guys spend half the match laying outside of the ring because it's not their turn to do spots yet.

I agree with this. I think in a NWA technical style match, someone grabbing an armbar and holding onto it for 2-3 minutes with minimal resistance from the opponent is FAR more cooperative than something like Dandy vs. Azteca where one guy cannot simply grab a hold without the opponent immediately trying to reverse/counter it. Ditto chinlocks/headlocks that end with the guy getting out in the standard "3 elbows and shoot off into the ropes" formula. If it was that easy to get out of, why not just do that as soon as your opponent puts it on you? As for JVK's idea that people don't criticize lucha, it's wrong. What OJ says is true, there are plenty of negative reviews on his blog & at Segunda Caida. Even in the yearbook threads there are differences of opinion on the same matches with some people liking stuff more than others and these are supposed to be the best lucha matches of their respective years. There is not some complete uniformity of lucha opinions. It's just that people who regularly write about lucha accept it on it's own merits without trying to look at everything through a "would this work in U.S./Japan" prism.

Gulak being on someone's ballot at 25 and B-Boy at 23 makes me feel a lot better at having Matt Hardy at #31 on my ballot.

Chavo & Rotunda being tied with each other is apt because I struggle to think of 2 guys who bore me more.

Damn 6 ballots for Roman Reigns. I feel like I should have joined in now, he's probably more ballot worthy than Chris Masters.

I don't feel you can really compare it because so few people in hardcore internet circles have really done a deep dive on Casas & Satanico as compared to Flair & Kobashi. Flair's status as the consensus "GOAT" was something that was happening in real time and same thing with Kobashi. There were large numbers of people watching the same matches at the same time. With Casas and Satanico, Satanico especially, it's all pretty much separate people at different times looking back at old footage. Lucha tape trading didn't seem to be a thing at all until AAA took off in the 90s so there wasn't a big group writing about and pimping Satanico in old newsletters and the early days of message boards because he wasn't really a AAA guy. This makes it a situation where you have to be a really big fan of those lucha guys in particular to come up with a critical analysis. If you were big on All Japan in the 90s you didn't have to be crazy about Kobashi to come up with an opinion on him because he was just 1 of the big stars of the promotion. Same thing with guys like jdw who weren't all on the Flair bandwagon back in the day. They didn't have to specifically seek out Flair matches to criticize them if they were already watching NWA/WCW. You could compare him to his peers wrestling in the same promotion at the same time period. The lucha guys don't have that same benefit because of footage issues so obviously that leads to less "balanced critiques" because if you don't like them you just quit seeking out their matches.

I liked this Mistico match a lot when I watched it over the weekend but it's pretty much the only Mistico match I've seen (outside of the Sin Cara run) as I've watched way more 80s/90s Lucha than the more modern stuff.

I'm pleasantly surprised that Bob Armstrong hasn't come up yet. He must have gotten more votes than I thought because I didn't have him really high or anything.

I actually like Honky but man 49 on him seems insane.

I actually thought about ranking Hidaka but it was based on a really limited sample. He was the biggest discovery for me when I was really into the New Japan/Zero 1 feud though.

The 2000s crowds were a whole different beast than the mid-90s crowd though. And definitely different than the late 90s crowds that were used to crash TV and really short matches. I'm not convinced the 90s All Japan crew would have gotten over in the WWF at the same time period they were tearing it up in All Japan at least not without a lot of style adjustment. Outside of Kobashi probably. Benoit got tryouts with WWF before he signed with WCW but I seem to remember the blurbs about them in the WON was that his matches got no reaction.

I don't really think it's a given. Especially if you go further back to the 70s MSG crowds that are going crazy for Jay Strongbow & Ivan Putski. As much as you loved some of the Billy Robinson matches from Japan in the 70s are you 100% confident they'd have gotten over better with the MSG crowd than Jay Strongbow vs. Mr.Fuji?

I see not much distinction between that and Flair vs Wahoo or Flair vs Steamer. And my answer would be the same: I'd say "well these guys work stiff." Giant Baba didn't work stiff himself. Not all AJ guys did. Ok then the answer for "how come the lucha guys work loose" is because that's how they work. With part of that probably being the crazy schedule they would work without the benefit of the off time between tours that Japanese guys would have. But there are lucha guys who have good looking strikes like Perro Aguayo kicking a dude in the face or some of Satanico's punches. But why would they hit each other any harder than necessary if the crowd is engaged? I also see a difference in stiff chops which don't really do anything except leave welts on your chest and really stiff forearms/kicks to head.

Well what answer would you have for someone who asks about 90s All Japan "why are these guys hitting each other so hard? It's supposed to be a work." Probably something about how that's the All Japan style.

I'm not sold on the idea that the 90s audiences for WWF & WCW had the patience for the All Japan 30+ minute slow build main events. Either way my point is that trying to judge lucha or ANY kind of wrestling that isn't U.S. wrestling by the metric of "would this have worked in the U.S.?" is really silly.

But the New York guys weren't going to make more money going down to Florida, they'd have made less. Having Florida guys work some dates in MSG actually benefits both parties. It keeps the Florida guys happy because they got to go up to MSG and make a big payday and helps Vince load up his cards. The other side to it is that Florida had a heavier schedule with most of their towns being weekly so getting guys out of the territory every once in a while helped keep them fresh in Florida.

So? It's not happening in a US ring, it's not trying to be US style. There are plenty of things from 90s All Japan that you couldn't have done in the U.S. at the same time it was happening there. But I don't see you penalizing super stiff strikes or head drops because "well you couldn't have done that in WWF or WCW at the time"

I'm ok with Brock getting a bit of a bump because BIGLAV does not account for extra credit items such as Brock completely destroying a one legged man in front of his mother (as seen in the animated gif thread)

Fujinami & Onita both did really well. But yea, if someone completely ignored lucha and wants to get in a tizzy because I didn't rank the All Japan 90s crew (because I've tried numerous times to watch 90s All Japan and it does nothing for me) I really do not care and please know that you are a hypocrite.

There was a lot more co-operation in those days. Eddie Graham already had his #1 top guy with Dusty Rhodes, he wasn't looking to replace him. Plus, Backlund was going to make more money working for Vince Sr. which was why everyone always co-operated with WWWF because they knew guys were going to wind up going there anyway so it was better to get some Andre dates or goodwill out of giving Vince Sr. what he asked for.

Hey guys you remember all that "Undertaker vs Shane is the match I'm most excited for at Mania" talk? Hahahah