Loss

For people who often criticize matches because the arm/leg work didn't go anywhere or because there wasn't enough selling, I just don't think this is the best path in.

The point is that a lot of people here have started with her and have been scared away. So instead of scaring more people who have the same tastes away, perhaps it's better to recommend great Joshi that more closely resembles wrestling that people already like, at least to start. Something slower paced with more selling and typical structure.

Outside of circles like ours, I've never heard very much criticism of Jericho in the HOF at all. By and large, he's viewed as a legend and one of the best workers and talkers of his time.

Dave cultivating a really deep pool of writers that can review every taped wrestling show under the sun would be awesome. The key is to have real editorial guidelines and a standard format for all reviews.

WWE should do referral discounts for the Network as a small step in safeguarding that.

I don't see how you fully appreciate what's great without knowing what "average" or "good" looks like first.

The thing is ... if you start with the very best stuff, it's all downhill from there. And Toyota is an acquired taste. It took me a while to "get" her, and for some reason, there's often a perception that she's the bellwether for the style.

Dave runs the WON a lot like Vince runs WWE, actually. There's a need to shake things up and abandon some of the formula, but they're still profitable, so they see no reason to make changes. Both are rich guys who should be even richer.

I think the 80s are the ideal place to start, although I do agree that the Chigusa-Dump series probably isn't the best first match to watch. Definitely don't start with Manami Toyota! Do not, do not, do not! Some of those matches are exceptional, but Chigusa-Dump is the type of match you're not going to see more than once or twice in a generation. Wrestlers to look out for in the 80s include the Jumping Bomb Angels, Crush Girls, Devil Masami, Jaguar Yokota, Yukari Ohmori, Dump Matsumoto and Mimi Hagiwara. That's an interesting cross-section of names and styles. - If you like Memphis wrestling or the bleeding/brawling garbage style, Dump matches are a good place to start - If you want to watch stuff that looks modern from 30 years ago, something like Chigusa-Devil from 8/22/85 is a classic, and Chigusa Nagayo and Jaguar Yokota are your spirit animals - If you like The Young Bucks, you'd probably like the Jumping Bomb Angels. You won't get the humor or postmodernism there, but I think the athletic appeal is similar - If you like more traditional championship matches, Yumi Ogura vs Kazue Nagahori from 3/86 is great - If you prefer a more conservative wrestling style, check out JWP 1.0 from 1986-1991. Sadly, the recommendations I have at this point aren't as specific as I'd like (that will change!), but it's a lot of solid 10-15 minute matches that won't change your world, but won't disappoint you either Start in one or two of those places that best matches your tastes and then I will be happy to help anyone customize a path that works for them to get through the 1990s. I've also decided to bite the bullet and start wading through post-2005 Joshi to look for all the stuff worth seeing. I'm expecting to be disappointed with most shows, but I think the rare gems will make it all worth it.

There are still blanks to be filled in, but myself and others have walked through quite a bit of that stuff.

Along those lines, shouldn't a wrestler have his "game face" on more when challenging for a title or entering the match that will settle a feud than an average TV match? The worst aspect of the video game entrance is that it makes no allowance for context. We almost never see anything non-formula anymore, like two guys brawling in the aisle to start a match or the match getting started with the heel bumping in full entrance gear for the first minute or so before rolling outside.

Why in the world would Flair interview Bischoff? If he's going to interview enemies, Jim Herd would be way more interesting.

I only caught the last few minutes of Nikki-Charlotte, but I liked that finish a lot as a way to set up a rematch. Charlotte getting unfairly screwed out of the title as part of her chase is a good thing, and I think they've made it where when she (or whoever) defeats Nikki, it will mean a lot more than it would have otherwise because she had to work hard to do it. What I didn't like was Stephanie's joyless delivery of the decision reversal because I thought it hurt the heat. Michael Cole also claiming that she made the right call was weird.

I don't mean to say there are no straight fans. Just that it's a big part of why it has never caught on here like in other countries.

I split all of the entrance music talk off into its own thread.

Is the techno fear the case outside the US too? There is a masculine fear of electronic music in the United States, which goes back to the homophobic (and probably racist) disco sucks movement of the late 70s. Anyway, I'm way off topic and apologize for that. I'll split this off.

Entrance music tends to be evergreen most of the time in WWE, and I get that even if I don't entirely agree with it. So with existing acts, unless they are doing some major gimmick makeover, there's probably no reason to change anything, because even if the music sucks, it's usually become synonymous with the wrestler. With new acts coming in, you kinda hope the themes are going to sound fresh. I always thought it was funny that Batista was into high-end fashion and techno music, and he had that horrid nu-metal track, but if Batista returns, it's probably pointless to change it. He's established.

I sometimes watch old 80s tags and think there's no way they would work in a modern setting. It doesn't take away from my enjoyment of the good ones, but it is something I notice. The biggest reason is that there isn't enough investment in the personalities anymore (for the most part -- there are exceptions, obviously) where the fans care not just who wins and who loses, but also cares about the momentum shifts throughout the match. When the fan investment is there, it's great. When the fan investment isn't there, it looks clownish. Still, I like it when wrestlers can dust off moves and sequences that have been unused for years and make them feel fresh again. That's exactly what Cesaro has done with the giant swing. And I'm as outspoken as anyone about not liking matches where guys don't do anything. I've even cracked on how Lawler works as a heel for that very reason -- I think he plays hide-the-foreign-object too much, and there's little I hate more than wrestlers cutting promos on the house mic during a match. But you take that foundation of working for heat and add modern stuff on top of it and you've got a winner. That's how the Midnight Express worked at the time, and the philosophy behind the MX would very much still work today with some tweaks to accommodate modern times. I don't know how to work this into my point, but this reminds me of Joe scaring the fan who was doing the CM Punk straight-edge symbol during one of their hour draws, then Punk bagging on him too. To me, that was the biggest black mark on the match, because if you're going to add that in a match, you gotta do it right. That did more to get over the fan as a coward than it did to get over Punk, Joe or the match, and it was obvious time killing. Something like Cornette trying to fight the referee over a bad call before tripping and falling backwards through the ropes is something very different.

They did give Neville an electronic track, but of course it sounds like something from the late 90s. And if you look at the entrance music the WWF had in the 1980s, it was far more diverse. It also sounded like a product of the pop culture of the time. "Jive Soul Bro" is basically a parody of "The Message" -- do any entrances sound anything like something by Kanye West?

What's odd is that he seemed like their lowest priority of the three during the days of The Shield.

My biggest problem with the music is that most of it is so rock-centric when it's hip hop, R&B and electronic stuff that charts these days for the most part.

Semi-regularly at my expense, but I do like you regardless of that.

Yeah, this thread was intended to be a celebration of the con, not a condemning of it. It's funny that now when someone actually gets real heat over something, the wrestler response is, "You know this is not real, right?" They don't even want the heat.

There are all sorts of things in wrestling that don't look like they hurt that people don't really complain about. I always thought the issue people had was that it's a move anyone could pull off, and that the level of difficulty is too low for a finishing move. I never had an issue with the clawhold because it was presented credibly, but that was always my takeaway of the issue people had with it.

Terry Funk's loaded chicken.