khawk20

A different sort of a "Fall from grace" would be Greg Gagne. Hard as it is to believe, Greg was very over and popular as a member of the High Flyers between 74 and 83. His singles bits during that time were also well-received--he was a legit challenger to Bockwinkel in 1979 after winning a non-title TV bout against him. (I know, hard to believe...). Greg began to lose his shine with the fans in a big way as 1984 began, with the proliferation of big-muscled wrestlers. Greg looked smaller against 240-260 pound guys like Bock and Raschke, but he looked absolutely puny compared to the LOD, Brody, Atlas, and Hansen...never mind the larger wrestlers in the other areas, particularly the WWF. As expansion by the WWF moved onward, more and more people were able to see the huge size difference between Greg and others, and combined with the propensity of people to cheer the large muscle guys, good or bad, in larger numbers, Greg lost credibility with the fan base in the AWA as a "main-event" performer. Now, he was a little older and his skills had diminished slightly, but he was still basically the same guy in 84-85-86. Yet people really began to hate him. It became too hard to believe that Greg could realistically win against some of the guys he wrestled, and when he did...ouch. people hated him more. I think if Greg would have wrestled from say 1964 to 1984, instead of 1974 through 1989, wrestling fans would remember Greg as a much better wrestler than they do. Greg's fall from grace is all about the era he unfortunately had to conclude his career in, in my opinion.

That sounds impossible. I'm Canadian and I always thought it was the greatest thing in the world when they would have one of those "free preview weekends" once a quarter or so because then and only then could I catch Saturday Night and maybe if I was really lucky one of the Clash shows. Even then, it depended on where in Canada you lived. Where I am, we did not get TBS or many other major TV stations out of the US at all (no option for even a free preview), yet a 2000 person town an hour up the road got TBS and all the rest. Drove me nuts. That was due to a media monopoly in our town and a whole bunch of other political bullshit that I never would have understood at that age anyways.

Given that the WWF is using their photo library so much, I wonder if the WWF has bought exclusive rights to use the old photo library. That might curtail the coffee-table book idea, if true. PWI had a run of mags in 1982-83 where they had great single-wrestler shots on the cover. It made the mags seem classier than the other magazines of the era, even the other Apter mags, which tended to use action shots on the cover. It really helped them sell the idea that PWI was a step above all the other mags of the time.

Most magazines are priced that high now, no? At least anything with colour pics, I would guess.

The WWF did the odd ones on house shows in the mid-80's. Hart Foundation vs. Sheik and Volkoff from the Boston Garden comes to mind. Sheik and Volkoff won as I recall. Those bouts always seem to come down to who the crowd hates more...the other team ends up getting cheered by default.

I still list mine and convert them for trades when asked. When I convert them, if they are relevant to me or my collection I dub a copy for myself and the VHS title comes off the list. My collection takes up space but it's well hidden for the most part so it's not a big deal..unless I have to find a misplaced tape, then all hell breaks loose.

Can you elaborate for me?

Given that the term is often used condescendingly, if it feels "toolish" when you see it, it's having the desired effect, no?

Another AWA wrestler that should get some consideration as a great tag wrestler is Jerry Blackwell. His were the teams that had the biggest heel runs between 1980 and 1985 in the AWA, initially with John Studd, then with Sheik Kaissie in an extended run with the High Flyers that most people have forgotten about over time (I would argue that Blackwell/Kaissie were the most hated team in the AWA of the 80's), and then with Ken Patera in a run with the tag titles for a year. Blackwell was able to carry the ball as the top monster heel in the AWA between 1980 and 1985. His bulk made him the perfect foil for the younger, quicker teams like the High Flyers. He maintained a huge level of hatred amongthe fans for four years straight, with different partners, and held strong as a true "monster" throughout all of it.

I have to make a case for Jim Brunzell, mostly for his extended work with Greg Gagne in the High Flyers. Gagne and Brunzell teamed for the majority of years between 1974 and 1985. They were the AWA's equivalent of the "Teeny-bopper" tag teams of the mid-80's: Young and extremely over with the fans of the area. They faced all the major teams of their era in the AWA including Stevens/Bockwinkel, Vachon/Raschke, and Lanza/Duncum in the 70's, and Kaissie/Blackwell, Patera/Blackwell, Ventrua/Adonis, Patera/Duncum, Santana/Martel, The Road Warriors, Steamboat/Onita, Hansen/Brody, and many more in the 80's. they captured the AWA Tag title in 1977 and again in 1981. They held the titles in 1981 for two years straight, which is an unheard of run for a tag champion. They remained over as a tag team in the AWA until around the middle of 1984. I give Brunzell the nod as a great tag wrestler because he was able to transition his tag skills into the moderately successful tag team of the Killer Bees with Brian Blair in the WWF after his run with Gagne ended. The Bees were consistently in the mix in the WWF tag scene for several years, and regardless of whether you liked the WWF tag style or not, they were as entertaining as any team from that era. Though they never won the tag title, nobody would have been surprised if the Bees had actually had some time with the WWF tag straps, which should illustrate the success of the team over at least a 3 year period. Gagne was also a very good tag wrestler, but I hesitate to rate him as "great", simply because he did not have a successful run outside of the AWA in a tag team, and the teams he mixed in with after Brunzell left never established themselves as real players...they always felt makeshift to me. Curt Hennig is probably the closest to a regular tag team partner that Gagne had after 1984, and that team only seemed to team sporadically.

From the territory days, it often only became obvious how far gone a wrestler was past his prime when they moved to another area. Mad Dog Vachon was main-eventing in the AWA in late 1983 and early 1984, and looked really good. HUGELY over, too. Vachon goes to the WWF in June 1984, and suddenly he looks ancient, with little believable offense, and almost no crowd support. I'd argue similarly for Mr. Wrestling II when he was wrestling with the WWF for a short time as well. In both cases, these men were draws and high up the card with little concern for their age or their declining skill-set amongst the fans that were buying tickets to see them. Putting them into a market where they were neither the focus of a feud or high-end angle, or being used as a top-end draw, and they looked pretty bad. Point back to Vachon, who came back to the AWA and wrestled exclusively in Winnipeg in late 1985, high up the card, and was effective once again as a main event wrestler, and it illustrates how one could maintain the illusion of still being in their "prime", provided the setting and booking were done right.

I like this thought process a lot. Is there a clear division (outside of the internet, probably) between fans of TNA and fans of WWE? Are there fans exclusively watching TNA and ignoring WWE? I do expect a certain percentage work it vice-versa. If TNA doesn't have it's own exclusive fanbase of some signifigance, I agree completely with Dylan here.

So you don't think that a team like the Harts or the Rougeaus could have been plugged into the Southern Style and been successful? They certainly would ahve had a lot more time to develop an understanding of how to work that style, and probably had much more creative control as to how to execute it. Conversely, would the MX or the R&R have looked as good being forced to wrestle in the WWF during the Harts/Rougeaus era?

Greg Valentine. 1979, 1981, and then in a non-title series in 1984. I think there was at least one other guy that went around with Backlund twice but I am drawing a blank. Tabe Slaughter in 80/81, and again in 83. Muraco too, in 81 and again in 83, as I recall.

I think the best combination of announcing and a big match I've ever seen is Flair vs. Steamboat at Chi-Town Rumble. Perfectly wrestled, perfectly called.

Agreed. Great move. The appeal of Demolition vs. The Road Warriors to me was that I always thought Demolition could lose any match they were in against the other teams of the day: Killer Bees, Can-Am's, Rougeaus, etc. They're matches were entertaining partially because they were competitive. The Road Warriors I enjoyed most when they were booked not to be in competitive matches. By that, I mean you didn't think there was any way in hell they were going to lose to who they were facing, even if it was a "Good" team. I enjoyed their raw power, their push as "monsters". When the LOD lost that aura and started to wrestle in "competitive" matches, where they were booked to look like they were in serious trouble and could actually lose, they weren't as fun to watch. It also explains why I never thought comparing the two teams was a good idea. ...and I have no idea if either was better than PG13.

No place else for him to go in the shape he was in, IMO. Didn't Vince fire him for not dressing in company-mandated attire while travelling? Verne brought him in because (a) they were desperate to have name talent on their cards and he was that (along with Bob Orton, Tommy Rich and Dick Slater, who came in during that time period, as I recall), and ( Verne knew what he could do from past experience during his two kick-ass years in the AWA from 1980-82. Adonis was clearly unhappy he was in the AWA at that time, though. Some of his promos are so sarcastic that it doesn't even pretend to hide the contempt for some of the towns he's been booked in.

I'm going back a long time but I seem to recall Roger Kent explaining why the ref was doing this in an AWA match waaaaaaaay back (Probably more than one match, actually). I think I remember that because I didn't get why it was happening either and that explanation made sense in terms of justifying it happening while staying in the mindset of enjoying the match..."suspension of disbelief" and all that.

I've got this...Have to dig up the vhs to check out how long and what kind of shape it's in, though. I suspect it's from the Bob Luce films.

The premise is actually that the ref doesn't allow a wrestler to grab the ropes to get the break, he has to be under the ropes. Heel grabs rope, ref kicks it away, because it's an illegal move. Seriously.

Only thing I can come up with in the immediate for those decisions are that the results when guys like Bellomo, Mcgraw and Sharpe were involved were so predictable, even back then, that they wanted to try and forge the appearance that they didn't lose ALL the time. In Blair's case, they probably didn't have anything in the works for him yet so maybe he was originally destined to be a JTTS, instead of in a moderately successful tag team. The ship had sailed for the rest of them on that option. Or maybe not, I dunno.

Which show did that happen? I don't recall jobbers like Iron Mike not doing clean jobs, at least on a regular basis...especially at house shows.

Are you guys even considering older teams like Bockwinkel and Stevens, Race and Hennig, Bruiser and Crusher, or Gagne and Brunzell (to name only a few)? I know, my AWA is showing again...but seriously, is there a set criteria for who is better than PG-13 to work with here, or is it just opinion?