khawk20

By comparison to Martel's other matches with Jumbo, the title switch is the worst one of the bunch by far. I was never a big fan of it myself and what I've seen of their other matches reinforced my feelings on it. I know jdw likes their Japan bouts a lot better (I've only seen JIPs of them and from what I've seen, I do as well), but my personal favourite is their 9/29/85 match in St. Paul the night after SC I (probably Martel's best title defense, IMO). I'd go with that one on the next PWO dvd if you need a Martel-Jumbo match...maybe put it next to the title change on that dvd if you would be inclined to do so, for comparison. Ideally if I can get the two Japan matches in full or as full as they come, a Martel vs. Tsuruta comp would be the best way for people to compare them all. IIRC Martel also teamed with Terry Gordy in late 1984 over there against Jumbo and Tenryu which could be added as well. But IMO Martel's rememberances about the title switch aren't wrong.

One that I came across recently is a LONG Bockwinkel-Tsuruta match from Hawaii in the late 70's. It's online...I'll find the link to it and edit it in or post it in another forum. **EDIT** link is in the Multi-media forum now... I asked Dan Ginnetty about it as it's an episode of Japan TV and it's the one he DOESN'T have, and he has no idea who the sourceis or where it came from. Tracking that one down in a nice dvd version is "grail-ish" to me, anyway. Those are the real Grails that are left...the matches that just appear that you had no idea existed. This is one of them. A batch of AWA TV from january-April 1980 appeared a few months back on youtube...guy that posted it actually taped it back in 1980. Great stuff..another Grail for me as TV from that era in the AWA is spotty and the VQ isn't great for the most part. I am sure there are more that will reveal themselves as the years go on. **** ...and, since this is a Flair thread and I'm steering it off-topic, some Flair Grails that might still see the light of day would include Flair vs. Pillman from Twin Wars 90, an AWA show in St. Paul that Verne got Flair in for at the very end of the AWA's existence. Verne had to give Crockett the Destruction Crew to work a program against the Steiners to make it happen (they were "Minnesota Wrecking Crew II under masks). Verne might have taped it. There is apparently a very early Ric Flair vs. Greg Gagne film shot by Jim Melby out there as well. The source I know claimed to have had it stored away at his parent's house, and since he is a US Soldier I have lost touch with him (got shipped to Iraq). I know how this story sounds, but this is the same guy that claimed he had a Melby film of Greg Gagne vs. Jim Brunzell (George Schire swore up and down that the match never ever happened, lol) and he did get me a copy of that, so there is some history there that would support his claim.

The AWA 72 match has been showcased before. Nothing wrong with it but it's not a new release from the vault or anything. If they were going to use a stock AWA tag match, I would have preferred they broke out one of the High Flyers-Martel/Santana matches from the summer of 1982. Really good stuff there.

One thing to keep in mind is that those that many that roll out the "Flair Formula" argument are talking only about seeing the same two or three spots in a given Ric Flair match and not his body of work in any particular match as a whole. I imagine that point has already been mentioned, but I need to bookmark this thread and getting a comment in about it is the easiest way to do that.

First bout I thought of after reading this was Bockwinkel vs. Hennig's 60-minute draw.

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-oops!

From my experience, the NWA with Dusty booking/involved is discussed a lot more frequently than Verne booking the AWA is. The term "Dusty Finish" was likely coined first and then further exploration into the subject showed other promoters being just as or even more guilty of employing the practice than Dusty was. The whole concept didn't just spring up overnight, it's been used forever in wrestling. The frequency of use seemed to increase in the 80's due to a larger TV audience seeing the same thing happen, and thus it seemed like it happened more. Verne was using the tactic a ton in the 70's, particularly in his tag division. Bockwinkel left the ring without the belt and got it back on the local TV show the week after all the time, too. Difference was it was local TV, in a time where you could run exactly the same angle/match/title screwjob on every card for a month, and have the same rematch on every card the next month. And obviously Verne wasn't the only one doing this. It was also the safest alternative to actually switching the title every month or two that the larger bodies with "World" titles could employ. If they make every switch straight-up, it was Jerry Lawler's 8 million Mid-Southern title reigns across the board. It's the reason I laughed so hard when Dale Gagner's AWA tried to write in Hogan as a two time champion a few years back in a title history revision they did. Hold true to that pattern through the years and Nick Bockwinkel held the AWA title about 50 times and the tag title with Ray Stevens about the same.

As I remember reading about it, the "Ok, Hogan doesn't get the title" scenario happened the day of the show. Not a lot of time for more than on-the-fly thinking if that is indeed true.

Hogan chasing Bockwinkel from 1982 through 1983 is a good example of the chase being a big draw, although Hogan would have been a big draw even if he had won the title the first time he challenged for it. Verne had a program in mind here, though, and stuck to it for a full year (between Aprils of 82 and 83). Hogan not getting the title at the end of the chase was more about money than Verne not wanting to give him the belt, as has become known in recent years. One thing people forget about Verne booking is that he had both sides of the coin going on in the AWA: He was the dominant face champ (last title reign was 7+ years), and his successor, Bockwinkel, was a dominant heel champ (5+ years in his first reign). the numbers at the gate had to have been steady enough, and profitable enough, that the various chase scenarios each man went through as champ were working.

Fair enough, but your statement of Dibiase's "title reign" not drawing doesn't read in the same vein as this, hence the question.

Is this really a fair comparison for illustrating your point? DiBiase with the title at house shows was both brief and so close to the event on NBC happening that most of the tix for those shows would likely have been sold already. Not disagreeing with your point per se, just with this being used as an example of it.

Nick Bockwinkel might qualify in this vein.

The June 1984 post-Battleroyal beatdown that Abdullah the Butcher, Bruiser Brody, and Sheik Kaissie delivered to Jerry Blackwell, a turn that eventually made Blackwell the most over face in the AWA, was one of the longest post-match beatdowns EVER. MYTH. You would be surprised at how often this comes up amongst AWA fans. Almost everyone that remembers seeing it on tv after it happened back in 1984 will tell you it was the longest amount of time from start of beatdown to wrestlers hitting the ring that they ever saw. I included myself in that category until I actually saw it again several years back. It's not long at all until the Fabs, Dusty, and others come infor the save. I first thought I had an edited copy, but the discovery of raw footage of that match proved that the time frame is much shorter than people remember. I think over the years the fact that Brody et al kept coming back to the ring and attacking the faces made people remember the incident as being a longer initial beatdown than it actually was.

That was very cool, thanks for the link. Had never seen that bit before. The stained glass window was pretty bizarre. If it's any consolation to you I bet he had to sell it a few years later when the AWA went tits-up on him.

This one.

Backlund-Race is apparently available on WWE.com...saw this on Crazymax and a few other boards now: http://www.crazymax.org/index.php?showtopic=21553

That was my first thought, that it was related to Garvin and the foot licker.

This sort of encapsulates the apathy towards WM this year, IMO. As big a fan as you are, your main watching point (if you were going to buy it) would be for someone that was awesome in our younger days over anything currently being presented.

Ross should just go the route of other media and pre-prepare death writings for former stars. It would allow for a better, more fact-based portrait of their lives. Of course that would mean that they actually gave a rat's rear when these guys die, and I have my doubts that the majority of these sorts of writings are done at any sort of personal level. The thought process in JR preparing this is probably more along the lines of "Shit, so-and-so died, now I have to delay my blog on kfc's new partnership with Wrestlemania XV for another week. Dammit!"

It's one that certainly can be. WCW did so many stupid things in it's time that the story sort of writes itself, from a WWE-produced DVD perspective at least.

"If it'd been me playing Randy the Ram, I'da won that Oscar, brotha."