jdw

Yep.

Second and third and fourth hand online. Given how much Keith was a mark for the WWF and not really a lover of WCW, and Dave was more than a bit the reverse, that is pretty funny that SKeith lifts Dave's "talking points". As far as star ratings, lots of people star ratings were in the same range. Everyone liked Benoit, whether they read Dave or not. I like Dylan. You like Dylan. You've had no influence over my like of Dylan. So people liking "workrate" doesn't mean that they were influenced by Dave. Hell, I liked Flair and much of what Dave liked in the *80s* well before ever reading him. Stories? Or reviews and opinions of shows? If there are stories why Davey Boy and Warrior were fired by the WWF in late 1992, of course that comes via various layers through Dave. If it's a review of the Vader vs Davey Boy match, that's the opinion of the person watching it. I thought that was a good, watchable match when viewing it. Yohe and I happened to view it before Dave did. What he thought of it didn't matter to me - I formed it while watching it. Stories? Again, various layers removed from Dave. But who really cares if people are repeating Dave's *news* reporting? That's the snark and hubris you're talking about? Seriously? You're kind of mixing and matching here. When you talk about "reviews" which are opinion items and would have snark and hurbris, but also the opinion of the writer. Then you're talking about news, which isn't snark and hubris... it's just the facts. Someone has to report the facts, and it sure as hell wasn't online writers at the time having contacts inside the business to break news. Might want to get your story straight on the influence you're talking about... "Can we focus?" News stories, or opinion? The news was through Meltzer and Keller since they were the only two reporters at the time, at least until Scherer became ECW's House Organ. Opinion? Indirect, but they had as much influence from other people in their little pool of RSP-W and other places online. Not terribly different from here. News? Dave was an influence on people even if they didn't know who he was and they were getting news from Scherer who was stealing from Dave and Wade left and right without attribution. Opinion? Not huge. General concepts of wrestling being worked? Most smart fans came to the general concepts of wrestling being worked *before* they got online and found places like this, or subbed to the WON, etc. General ideas of what's good work and what's not? I think Dave's influence on that is probably overstated. People came to Dave already with concepts of what good work is, and what isn't. I certainly did. "Who" was a great worker and who wasn't? That's possibly where Dave would have more impact on people because he often saw workers before many of his readers, and touted them. Then people would track the stuff down. Waltman was pimped by Keller and Dave before most of their readers saw them. Folks then tracked down the tapes, and were open to them as workers. Not to dissimilar to a friend recommending a book, or saying Cracker is a great series. No, Parv... you've lapped the field in that.

Knowing CRZ, I don't think Dave was much of an influence on him at all. Dave had very little influence on Dean... frankly none. The Rick? Who knows, though it doesn't really matter since Rick wasn't relevant for long. SKeith? Not too directly. So really, you're talking nonense. As far as hubris and snark, you're kind of forgetting the obvious: There were fucking College and Post-College boys of the 90s. They were all filled with piss, snark, hubris and vinegar. It's how most people online wrote at that time. It's what Simmons was as SportsGuy. Good lord, Dave had given up most of his snark and hubris after the 80s when he stopped being a college and post-college guy. Seriously... for fucks sake are you bonkers when it comes to projecting shit onto people you didn't know in an era that you weren't even around for. I got a rep back then for being a condescending, arrogant asshole... but your really take the cake.

Ah, the anti-Dave Meltzer point now. Gotta love it. Well, first, Jim Cornette and some other guy whose name eludes me invented the star rating. So there. And if we have to blame Meltzer for something, blame him for *us* then. Also, I love the idea that a crowd full of people actually having fun is a bad thing. Really, I'm annoyed as anyone by some of these chants, but the line has to be drawn at some point too. Pro-wrestling is entertainment. People going to a pro-wrestling show and having fun *with* or *against* the show are entitled to do so. What about those "smart marks" chanting "We want Flair!" at the GAB 90 ? Were they guilty of being corrupted by "Evil Meltzerism" already ? Of because they were chanting for Flair and shat on a crappy show, they were decent old-school fans still in the "Garden of Eden of kayfabe" ( ) ? And yes, kayfabe existed. Form the pro-wrestler's point of view. But let's not pretend the people ate it up without thinking. I never, ever "believed" in pro-wrestling, not for one second. The Evil Meltzerism Theory is one of the dumbest fucking things ever. Less evil Meltzer and more every Tom, Dick and Harry with a keyboard thinking that they were Dave Meltzer. Even you could manage the subtle distinction between those two things. Perhaps. What's funny is that most people didn't think they were Meltzer. He wasn't online until the late 90s, and by that point the people you mentioned were established online. He didn't have a great deal of influence on any of them. He was mostly known online as a "news" guy in the era, and that would only be when people were crediting him with the stuff they were lifting from him. As writers, CRZ was miles removed from Dave, The Rick was closer to just a guy writing, and SKeith was more into putting over SKeith and the WWF than worrying about stealing Meltzer's style. All of them cut their teeth in RSP-W in a *conversational* environment. It's a bit like saying Dean got on a keyboard and thought he was Meltzer, or that any of the DVDVR boys did. Or that Dylan did, or Daniel when he showed up, or any of the long timers. I'm terribly surprised by any of this. You writings on hardcore fandom from the 80s and 90s has always been crap. But you might want to peddle it to people who weren't around in those days. There still are a number of us who were. Hey, remember that time you and Meltzer went to Tokyo!

Pro-wrestling was better when you could cheer for sexual assault. Also nothing like running a sexual assault that's "okay" because "she wanted it". Loving the 90s reunion lads. But what point is being made here? Are you suggesting that Tully vs. Magnum is a feud we should not rate highly on moral grounds? I can't speak for Jerome, but... One can enjoy the Tully vs Magnum feud while also finding the whole "she likes it!" stuff uncomfortable bullshit. It's a bit like being a Dylan fan while also understanding he was a royal shit to a lot of women in his life, including in a lot of his highly praised music which is at times uncomfortable to listen to and think deeply about when rubbing up against him being a fuckhead in that way. Clear? Or do you think wrestling fans are too stone cold stupid that they only can enjoy things 100% and that any 1%+ that they are critical of or find annoying or find offensive means they can only HATE!!!! it?

Ah, the anti-Dave Meltzer point now. Gotta love it. Well, first, Jim Cornette and some other guy whose name eludes me invented the star rating. So there. And if we have to blame Meltzer for something, blame him for *us* then. Also, I love the idea that a crowd full of people actually having fun is a bad thing. Really, I'm annoyed as anyone by some of these chants, but the line has to be drawn at some point too. Pro-wrestling is entertainment. People going to a pro-wrestling show and having fun *with* or *against* the show are entitled to do so. What about those "smart marks" chanting "We want Flair!" at the GAB 90 ? Were they guilty of being corrupted by "Evil Meltzerism" already ? Of because they were chanting for Flair and shat on a crappy show, they were decent old-school fans still in the "Garden of Eden of kayfabe" ( ) ? And yes, kayfabe existed. Form the pro-wrestler's point of view. But let's not pretend the people ate it up without thinking. I never, ever "believed" in pro-wrestling, not for one second. The Evil Meltzerism Theory is one of the dumbest fucking things ever.

Pro-wrestling was better when you could cheer for sexual assault. Also nothing like running a sexual assault that's "okay" because "she wanted it".

My head spins.

I think you watched a different match. This isn't 45 straight minutes of spot-fu and counters. The first 10:30 alone had a pair of three minute FIP sequences on Toyota, along with a two minute HIP sequence on Kansai. That's 8 of the first 10:30. It's not like it's the last time their have non-back-and-forth segments where one of the wrestlers is getting worked over rather than just a bunch of My Turn, Your Turn shit.

Yep. Just watched it again on Wed when looking for something else. There isn't anything that can match picking this up in June 1994 at the Japanese video rental store in Little Tokyo, grabbing some teriyaki to go at the restaurant a few doors down, popping the tape in the VCR, and watching the two AJPW 30 episodes while stuffing my face and being blown away. First times are first times. But... The shit holds up. 22 years later it remains compelling, has me "rewinding" to watch spots again, has me tossing out regular "nice", "cool" and "sweet" at the tv, makes me laugh my ass off when the Misawa fan loses his shit right on que, makes me dig Kawada's "what the fuck do I have to do to beat this fucker" look as Misawa is pulling his shit together on the floor, or enjoy Misawa's best ever Hulk Up moment even though I'm still "rooting" for the Other Guy. Nice to remember what I love about wrestling, which this match captures a lot of.

Eliminate the word "these parts". He's been highly rated by hardcore fans since the mid-80s when hardcore fandom was invented. That's like two decades before "these parts".

Yeah... I like Crockett as well. Wouldn't call him great, but he was underrated.

They both are overrated and sucky, even at their best.

Yeah, that was pretty jaw dropping both on Simmons and on Shoemaker's part.

The times were 12:58, 4:28, 7:34. Not a 60:00. You look to be switching between d/m/y and m/d/y format. The three Baba-Bruno matches mentioned are: 2/3/67 = Mar-02-1967 (9:04, 3:00, 3:52) 7/3/67 = Mar-07-1967 (17:30, 13:10, tl) 8/7/68 = Aug-07-1968 (12:58, 4:28, 7:34)

Which always was a cute, funny line. The reason a lot of us hipped to wrestling being fake fighting is because it didn't look like real fighting, but instead like fake fighting. Tenryu airballing or going "neighborhood play" on the Tenzuguri doesn't really help protect the "fight" aspect. The backlash against "elitist reviewers" predates Coey or me or Jewett. People were busting Dave's balls before that. It would be a hoot to read them obsess in places like The Lariat (and it's predecessor that I'm forgetting) and on RSPW about Dave's star ratings and snobishness. And of course "Why does it get good" was a running joke among that crew when I got online. The irony is that the anti-elitist are just as elitist. We've all sat with regular fans or kids and see how they watch and enjoy the matches. They sure as hell aren't talking about it or breaking it down like we do with Jumbo and Flair and Kawada and Lawler and Fujiwara and the rest of them. There are 27000+ posts in the GWE forum, and this one is over 3500+ though Loss has culled a lot of older discussions into the forum. "Backlash" against Coeyism is a bit like Stalinism vs Lenin.

Were you the first person to come up with a reason why Tenryu's sloppiness was actually great after people pointed out that it was, well, sloppy? I don't think so.

It's kind of funny that no one back in the day talked about the greatness of Tenryu's sloppiness as a great part of his character and work. It was only invented after people started pointing that the Tenzuguri was sloppy that people wandered off to come up with an explanation for why it was still great. One wishes it was the other way around. Now someone out there may say that the only way to come up with an explanation/justification/excuse for the Tenzuguri is for it first to be criticized. I'd call bullshit on that. Specifically as someone who talked about the choppiness/sloppiness/lack of perfect execution of Dream Rush before other folks did, and talked about why I felt it "worked" in the match, even if unintentional: it was an interpromotional match, the first time with this pairing, and it makes sense / feels right given the context. That said, I'd be fine if someone didn't see it that way. In contrast, the Grand Tenryu Unified Sloppiness Theory only came about because... well... we can never admit our favorites might be kind of shitty at something. So we have to make shit up to cover for it. I don't know about anyone else, but Revolution No. 9 is a drizzingly piece of doped up shit. Not the only piece of shit from that recording sessions of that band. Doesn't mean I don't still love the hell out of the band, or love the better moments of that recording session. For a group of elitist wrestling fans, a lot of us need to do a better job of admitting that the shit of our favorites does in fact stink.

Repeating myself, but a number of really good posts by people, especially by Redman. The second longer one was another excellent post.

A number of really good posts by people, especially by Redman.

Nah. More like someone trying to make a Pro Wrestling Mostly type of thread, but threw it in this folder because he knows he doesn't have the talent to pull off something like this with the concept: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/12441-the-storied-pro-wrestling-career-of-madonna

Loss: I posted it almost 2 *days* and dozens of posts after he came back.