Dylan Waco

The point was that the media didn't treat it as "one man's actions."

This has to be the most egregious case of damning someone with faint praise I've ever seen

Well actually I think there is a great deal of difference, but it depends on circumstance 2003 WWE is not 1974 NWA. The vertical suplex was not a high spot in 2003 WWE. The German suplex largely was at that point, before the rolling Germans effectively shot it between the eyes (hard to say when that was, though the RR 2003 is the match that stands out the most and that is on the very front end of the time line in question so to that extent I see your point..). Three amigos was not a head dropping spot and was usually a spot done very slowly and deliberately. A reversal merely requires one guy shifting his wait, not a guy reversing from a waste lock position. I can buy the third one being countered, so long as both guys sells the impact on the back end. I'll grant that it's not an ideal spot, but there are lots of momentum swinging spots that fall under a similar category

Chris Benoit killed his family and the media (rightly or wrongly) went to great lengths to suggest that the prevalence of steroids in the business was the cause. If that did not take down the WWE, I find it hard to believe that equally "everyone already knows this" case of mafia influence in Japanese promotions will do the trick over there. Though NOAH is far worse off so who knows

For the most part the guys don't lay on the ropes that long and often it sets up a reversal of the move.

Rolling Germans were beaten into the ground the WWE, though I'm not certain if they are talking about rolling Germans or the three amigos here and I would have to see the match in question to throw out any real judgment on the three amigos which was a spot I thought they usually did well even when the final one was reversed. 619 criticism is something I continue to love, especially in comparison to WCW/ECW era Rey where every second offensive move was a rana variation. I mean I see how someone could hate the 619, just as I see how someone can hate a lot of things in wrestling. But complaining about "cute" spot use/overuse and citing 619 as particularly awful is something I will never understand

I'm going to watch all of the top lucha matches back-to-back when my time opens up in May. On initial watch the Santo tag jumped out at me more than any other match.

I don't think Loss point is advocating "universalism" in the sense that you are implying there though I don't want to speak for him. I absolutely think wrestling is relative, but I still think you can reach a basic consensus on most things. Even in the areas where consensus can't be reached, discussion of particulars and WHY you think things are good/suck/et can at least allow for an understanding of perspectives

I don't see how this is true at all. It is one thing to say the nature of wrestling encouraged less variation/experimentation in earlier eras. It is not the same as saying "well those matches may not be good now, but they seemed good to people at the time."

That whole series is great. I remember liking The Bash match best at the time.

Dave has a vested interest in hating "revisionist" projects, because it is his work that is being "revised." It's largely Dave's opinions and statements on wrestlers and matches that are being challenged. Things like the yearbooks and 80's Sets are specifically designed so that every match is a piece of the bigger puzzle. You are watching things in sequence from that exact year/era. You are not comparing Sayama to Rey - you are comparing Sayama to Kobayashi, Hamada, Fujinami, DK, Takano, et. Yet to Dave it is "stupid" and unfair and whether he knows it or not I think a large factor is that people are shooting holes in narrative(s) he created (yes I realize the Sabu example is an odd time to point this out, but I still believe it)

One of my favorite things about the AWA footage was the original Team Challenge Series lottery where they claimed all sorts of guys were entered, including Ricky Steamboat, The RnR's and others I'm forgetting

Where on Earth are the good Buck/Slater matches? I'm not saying they don't exist, but I certainly don't remember any

95 WCW was not very good. Eddy and Benoit were better once they came in but they were only there briefly. Arn ruled and would in the discussion. I wouldn't mind someone picking him. Flair wasn't bad, but was not setting the World on fire. Pillman had a couple of really strong performances and lots that weren't very good. Regal was better on paper than in reality. Who else is there?

"He was better in WCW!" sort of became a smark rallying cry to stick it to Vince for a while and I imagine that is the origin of that. Well that and their was a point where junior fetishism was so widespread online that it was automatically assumed that the guys in the "smaller" classes had to be better workers no matter what. There were guys who were better in WCW, but it's a term that often got tossed out and gets tossed out now for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual quality of performances

I am not an RVD fan really, but that is not a bad pick at all. He definitely appeared to not give a fuck starting right around the time HHH took his balls which would have been right around that time frame IIRC.

I do think a lot of fans overrate Jericho, but generally speaking I don't know that he's rated THAT highly in the ring. I always saw him as a "second tier" guy in comparison to your Eddy, Rey, Benoit and even Dean's at the time. He was different in that he was a character that could and did work the mic and felt distinct. But I never rated him on the level of those guys and have grown to like him less and less over the years. I actually know a lot of people who feel the same way

I think it is almost a guarantee that FCW gets a name change some time in the near future and perhaps even gets "branded" as a "net show" in the lead to 24/7 and eventually the WWE network

I saw an indy show once where the promoter came out and gave away free concessions to be paid off from the heels pay after he gave a ref a piledriver.

Did not forget about the few remaining. Rest of my week is busy but I will get to them soon!

The last thing WWE developmental needs is more input from the WWE brass

Bobby Bass

Bob Armstrong The Bullet is another one of those Rich/Wahoo types where we don't have as much of his career to judge by as you would like, but it is pretty much impossible to argue HHH is better than him (or them). Actually we can limit ourselves to far past his prime SMW commissioner era Armstrong and on that alone it would be virtually impossible to make a case for HHH. As Loss has correctly noted, not position was ever better suited for a wrestler than Bob Armstrong as commissioner of SMW. He felt natural in that role, delivered some absolutely brilliant promos and when called to battle always delivered. He was capable of getting over the seriousness of angles and laughing at the silliness of certain situations without compromising his characters integrity or making anything seem out of place or unnatural. I know HHH is new to that role, but comparing his run as authority figure to Armstrong's is just comical. Even comparing Armstrong role as "special occasion primarily gimmick match worker" to much closer to physical prime HHH's role as "special occasion primarily gimmick match worker" I see no argument for HHH. As with Buck and the boombox, Armstrong was fighting for his kids and the honor of his promotion. He was vulnerable AND tough. The baseball bat was a more credible and serious looking weapon in his hands than the sledgehammer in Trips hands. HHH has never been good about presenting himself as vulnerable and his toughness has always seemed really forced. HHH can have good matches in that setting, but they never feel like wars of attrition or blood feuds, at least not because of anything he does in the match. Armstrong as semi-unjustly accused perpetrator of nepotism dealing with accusations of bias from Cornette is just a much more compelling figure than HHH as justly accused beneficiary of nepotism dealing with accusations of bias from geeks like us. Steven Casey/Dane The implications of this comparison are that Chaz is to Shawn Michaels as Casey/Dane is to HHH. I guess Alexis would be Stephanie but then that would make Chaz Test or maybe Randy Savage and I’m not as comfortable with that. Actually complexity of relationship involving Chaz/Dane and Alexis may make her a better comp to Vince now that I think about it. Anyhow I actually rewatched the Bungee match today and was really impressed with the crazed stiffness of Dane’s stomps. I don’t think I’ve ever seen HHH throw stomps like that. It is possible that Scott Casey is a better comp to Trip, and Dane is a better comp to Shane, since I can’t envision Hunter taking crazy Bungee bump that Dane did. Dane was a good bumper, but really stiff and had very good execution for a guy who was often working half trained rednecks who were likely being paid in concessions. If Cornette had actually wanted to replace Stan Lane after he bolted, Dane would have actually been a tighter working version of Lane, albeit with a shittier look and likely to get winded after the second or third criss cross spot. I actually think Dane might have been slightly more talented than HHH, but he was fucking Alexis, not Stephanie McMahon. DJ Peterson Peterson and Trooper were a better tag unit than Hunter and Shawn. Peterson also worked as far more compelling challenger to heel Curt Hennig in t.v. match than HHH has ever looked as babyface challenger to any champ during any match. So on those two points of comparison I think Peterson safely wins. Big problem with Peterson is that he didn't have a really lengthy run. I don't remember his WWF stint, but I assume he had good matches with Horowitz and maybe Tim Horner if the timing was right. He was a cheesy babyface in an era where cheesy babyfaces worked, but he was too late to make real money off of it. I am not sure you can really say the generic version of Brad Armstrong is “better” than HHH, but I struggle to think of things he did that were obviously worse. Ricky Rice Rice was a one move kind of man. Honestly the one move Rice had was really great and if we were isolating the single best things each guy did and comparing them, there is nothing HHH does half as well as Rice executes a dropkick. I have seen Rice have really good performances built around that dropkick – and I have seen him crash and burn horribly. I actually think Rice could have turned out pretty good, but one of my biggest criticisms of HHH is that he has no clue how to fill up time and that is something that applies to Rice even moreso. Al Madril I am not a fan of Al Madril but I recently watched the angle where he busted up Kerry’s non-existent foot with a crutch and I am pretty sure I liked him a lot in one of those tags from the Texas Set. I mean I think HHH was better than him. But maybe Madril isn’t as bad as I had previously thought. Buck Robley I would be tempted to rate Robley above HHH purely on the strength of his delusional rants on Gary Cubeta’s old show, which were far more interesting than any rants of comparable length ever given by HHH. Then there is the shirt which is better than any piece of gear HHH has ever worn. As a wrestler Robley worked and looked the part. He was a sloppy bum, a mean old shit and a cranky bastard. He totally worked as Ueda’s partner or a guy working Porkchop Cash on 2005 indy shows in rural Mississippi. HHH was a blue blood patrician who really felt forced in that role, despite a look that was accommodating – sadly this was probably his most convincing role. HHH was probably more polished, but Robley wasn’t supposed to be polished. Robley is not my favorite wrestler of his type – that would be Bobby Bass. But it is a type of wrestler that I think has great charm and a real authenticity to it. I can’t think of a wrestler on Earth less charming and authentic than HHH. Mark Starr This is an interesting comparison because you basically are comparing a guy with facial hair/physical aesthetics of Village People fan to guy who was working a modified Village People gimmick. I was always a big fan of Men At Work and pre-MAW Starr, but I struggle to think of enough good performances v. Cuban Connection on Worldwide to make a compelling case. Certainly he could put a more compelling heat section together, but that could be said of ninety percent of heels in wrestling history. Maybe a review of WCW B shows would reveal enough evidence to put Mark over the top, but he’s not the guy with last name of Starr I would confidently rate about HHH.

You guys have a youtube link for this?