
tomk
DVDVR 80s Project-
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Does anyone actually still talk about that match anywhere? I mean Snowden still makes jokes but those really feel like dated jokes, like mocking SPuds Mckenzie. I mean this really feels like we're debating a circa 99 talking point. My favorite bizarro part of the English puro fan posse who do most of the puro analysis on the figure four board is it's folks who got into puro in last three years, are superenthusiastic about that period and not really interested in anything before it. It's like first being exposed to Rod Stewart's through his "Great American Songbook" stuff and becoming a superfan...and then being completely disinterested in The Jeff Beck Group , Small Faces, or Stewarts 80s pop period. I really think the figure four board is representative of alot of the puro writing on the web. And you get threads on dvdvr and I've seen it here as well were people essentially post statements to the degree that "there is no selling in Japanese wrestling...selling is a US based construct". 6/3/94 doesn't mean anything to people currently writting about puro.
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I don't know why one would think that fans of Villano V v Blue Panther mask match haven't seen alot of Blue Panther. Trying to think what is the high end Blue Panther mask match that the more "well schooled" Blue Panther fan has seen with which to compare it. Blue Panther v Love Machine is significantly worse match by alot. Blue Panther v Vulcano is significantly worse match by alot. I assume no one has Blackman match mask. Huh. How so? It leads to rest of match with guy who took bump to back of his head fighting from below, it's pretty key to the whole rest of the match. If Villano V deliberatley bladed the back of his head than that suggests a real desire to make it a big drama spot. If it wasn;'t a deliberate blade job and just two guys working the story of legit injury than that's also about working drama. Makes the powerbomb spot more dramatic. Makes the Villano willing to potentially do more damage to himself if it means more damage to opponent three superplex spot more dramatic. Leads to the whole Villano V goes to back match restart which is a drama spot. First two falls are short by 93 standards. This is 2008 CMLL where the length of match falls is about what you expect. There was alot more to them than the tope and I don't know what the objection is to mask pulling and mask pulling receipt finishes. Villano V didn't so much "wander" to the back as he was helped to the back by his second. The heel going to the back to regroup between falls, wrestler knocked out on floor between falls coming too upset, wrestler being taken to hospital commandeering ambulance and coming back is kind of classic big match restart moment. Guy gets hurt gets taken to the back and regroups is basic wrestling stuff. It also led to the Killer Bees switch booking later that year where the question was constantly raised as to if it was same Villano who returned between falls. Currently big mask match formula is two short falls leading to third fall where guys put it all out on the line, which mostly ends up being guys trading big moves "your turn-my turn" style. The two shmozz finishes leading to guys putting it all on the line by doing dangerous potentially self destructive spots excessive numbers of times in a row was a cool format. No one wanted to see Blue Panther loose his mask. No one. I mean there are a couple loons who wanted to see him "pass the torch" to some young guy with pretty dives or something. But for the most part no one wanted to see him loose his mask. US fans went into that match already upset at the finish, predisposed to dislike the match. The crowd pops pretty big for the first Fujiwara arm bar near fall and I imagine if Villano V had lost the mask right there it would still get pimped and wouldn't be hurt by the level of anger most of us have over Panther loosing his mask.
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Huh? Vince got next to nothing in return for the time he put into the Rock? How do you figure that?
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Panther v Atlantis was a title match which was really deliberately worked as almost a nostalgia match (it was showcase for 25thanniversary of Atlantis' wrestling debut, if memory serves). Panther v Villano V was an actual big stip match with both guys doing overkill spots ( the three superplexes, the three topes) because something was on the line. There is trhe hot counter of the Fujiwara armbar attempt for the finish. The Villano getting toped into chair bleeding out back of head leading to all the spots on the back of the head (including a nasty powerbomb) in first fall. I don't know how high it did in the WON poll. I remember it being top five below stuff like the Flair v Michaels Mania match. Not just for cruiserweight matches. The idea was that he was a guy who knew contemporary finishes and moves. He's cited as working with HBK giving him his new submission.
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Billy looks more like the kind of guy that the WWF/WWE would push as a singles star. Road Dogg looks more like the guy that they would insist on having wear a shirt. Thats not some crazy thing that Russo and the net made up.
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At least one of the Flair v Race in Japan matches was worked like Jerry Lynn v Chris Daniels two guys exchanging moves for no reason. The Starcade match was better than that one.
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I don't get the Solie as boring guy who happened to be around to call memorable matches idea. He wasn't a rah-rah hype announcer. That he isn't Don West, Jim Ross or David Crockett is the point. He's not a carny hype man or a guy trying to kill time by telling entertaining jokes. Normally guys who pimp Solie point to alot of his work calling meaningless undercard work, as he sells the idea that you're learning something valueable by watching it.
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I love me some Lance Russell. Both him and Solie relied on kind of dramatic understatement which made the action seem even more exciting. But I've watched a ton of Russell recently and I think he was overreliant on the same exasperated spots. The same exasperated spots for a guy getting lynched as someone talking shit as someone getting tarred and feathered. Those spots work but its kind of a crutch. I'll take him over WCW/WWF Ross easily (over Midsouth Ross as well) and I haven't watched a ton of Solie recently.
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Thesz gimmick was "I am legitimate" with secondary part being "my legitimacy transfers to the rest of your product". It's a good gimmick that he was able to work and maintain for his entire career. Into his old age he could command a price to show up to ref a match or just present a belt. Part of working the gimmick of “I represent the lineage of the real in a world of fakery” involves doing curmudgeony interviews where you talk shit about the goofiness and fakery out there. No different than Shane Douglas ding mic work about his personal disgust with Papa Shango and Doink. The “I am disgusted and want nothing to do with this BS” mic work is important part of the gimmick that Thesz worked. You need to do that mic work to get the gig reffing UWA lucha matches.
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IIRC, when Thesz was world champ, one of his prerequisites for bookings was that he wouldn't work on any show with midgets or women wrestling, essentially for that reason. I'm pretty sure that this was a line that Thesz used to publicly maintain his gimmick, and had nothing to do with reality. I know I have Thesz doing commentary for a midcard U.S, womens match, and I'm pretty sure people have put up results from cards with Thesz in main and midgets and women on the undercard. If you paid him enough he would have tagged with a woman a midget and an exotico.
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The last thing I want to do is discuss a minor WWF character from the early 90s but: Yeah there is a pretty straight line from The Genius’ scroll to the Dudleys tables to Helmselys sledgehammer (or belt shot). I still want to say that Droese getting hit with his own trashcan (and the bumps he took from the trashcan shots) were treated very differently than the Genius hitting someone with a scroll. Probably Phillycentric folks are idiots and Droese probably wasn’t an attempt to imitate garbage wrestling. The point was if it was an attempt to lift something from garbage wrestling, it was a poorly executed attempt.
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Wrestling Observer Recap -- 11/12/84
tomk replied to Cross Face Chicken Wing's topic in Newsletter recaps
I want to say Ron Reese was the Yeti/Big Ron Studd. Jerry Reese (no relation) was Big Red/ Vodoo Malumba. ha WTF? I don't think I've ever heard Studd listed in any of Meltzer's storngest men in wrestling articles. -
I've watched enough UFC to have little sympathy. It doesn't matter how regulated the rules are, if your own advertising campaigns pimp it as modern Roman gladiators and fight club come to life you really can't get upset when the media portray it that way.
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Living outside of Philly in the mid-nineties I may have been too exposed to idiots who thought Philly was center of the universe. But Duke Droese was all about the garbage can shots...I remember people assuming this was inspired by Philly wrestling. Don't know how it was covered in the sheets.
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The WWF had Duke Droese hitting folks in the head with a trashcan in 94 (lifting elements from TWA and Todd Gordon era ECW I guess), and while Bischoff was quick to grab the NJ 3(Malenko, Benoit, Eddy) the WWF grabbed the plus one (Scorpio). Lifting elements or talent is one thing. Showcasing them in ways that grabs the audience is something else.
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I wish toa had an archive so I could find my old workrate reports for the first two several two hour PPVs. There was this brief period where they were running out of money and it became a really great Bert Prentice fed with AMW v Hot Shots where I thought it had some potential and then they got a money mark and it went back to hell.
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I'm a Ramones fan.
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Kojima may have been in All Japan but c'mon. In post Mutoh All Japan, Mossman had adjusted to work more New Japanish. Who would be the All Japan guys in MLW who represented King's Road? Steve Williams?
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This is a weak set but most amused by: Really? Harlem Heat getting "we hate jigaboos" heat in front of a biker crowd? Is this meant by the WWE as a shot at Booker, a shot at the WCW audience, or just a sign that no one has actually watched the matches selected?
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It should be said that all of this involves on some level accepting Meltzer's myth that you need a Michael Jordan/Tiger Woods superstar figure (guy with no real rivals) on top.
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I think you’re looking for something inherent in the structure of chase story when the real answer is just folks are lazy. I’m fascinated by the world of beekeeping. Along with the story about penis piercing, stories of how “Before the bees were Africanized, my grandfather raised bees which could produce hallucinogenic honey” were my favorite stories that every herbal healer told. I’ve posted a bunch on bees on organizational theory web sites and wrestling web sites over the years and am kind of pissed that I haven’t effectively converted folks to the world of bee keeping analogies. Used bee keeping in arguments as to how “passing the torch works”, as explanation of why don’t like face v face title matches, as explanation of why Smackdown was more effective at creating new challengers than Raw, etc. http://www.motherearthnews.com/Modern-Home...ers-Primer.aspx Hives are organized around one queen. Whole social organization built around feeding and caring for one queen. How do you reorganize a hive around a different queen? The whole WWWF/WWF transitional heel champion is a really good system. You get new top face in place (move old queen to supporting role) without having to change social structure much. On some level the “money is in the chase” should read as there isn’t a social structure there to support the new guy who wins the chase. He doesn’t have a system of rivals and guys to feed him in place. It’s hard work to create that. It’s easier to be lazy and not bother.
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When did the Japanese fans quiet in their appreciation thing start? I always assumed it was a U.S. response to watching New Japan: response to both the acoustics in the Dome and type of US fan who only watched juniors matches on New Japan cards.
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JDW's post on orthodoxy got me to thinking about Meltzer's defenses over last tow years of HHH as a guy who shouldn't be voted most overated in the annual polls. I really enjoyed Wrestling II in 83 and 84. My sense is 1980 Johnny Walker was a high level worker who was one of the most popular wrestlers in the company and had mostly very good matches this year. Still even if Meltzer agreed with that I can't see him making the defense.
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Thanks. I started reading prowrestlingonly after all this. I want to say that there were at least two Figure Fours where Alvarez expressed his anger at a toa post I wrote about Michaels. And this was suggested as also being a possible shot at me (from December 19, 05): I'm kind of easy guy to parody and have seen people do it well. So this was dissapointing. I like violence and good formula. I was in the toa quote machine praising the most foirmulaic of cartoons (Pepe Le Pew)and have little to no interest in anime. But if a shot or me or not, you'd still think that Hogan and Cena are guys who do Tom and Jerry really well.
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From Wade Keller thread Campbell mentions that Loss: What did I miss?