tomk

Hogan/Belzer? The UIW out of Baltimore? Axl's promotion or some other Baltimore fed?

Travis wasn't completely insane. He was a guy who if you got into an argument with, he'd refuse facts and just make up facts to prove his own point. Jdw can probably say more. All of toa was filled with last word marks (again I think jdw will admit to his own guilt there) and some of those would get really nutty in their pursuit of last word.

Travis Beaven who i think was working on a project with WWF at the time would mention it regularly. I'm pretty sure other folks referenced it as well. It jibes with what I know of comedy writers (unfortunately know several writers for Scrubs, Real Time, Futurama etc--don't remembere what folks were doing in the late nineties), and the way they riff is distinct from the way comedians or other folks riff. So no reason to question it when Cole's background mentioned.

I haven't watched either show for a while but the real thing people are missing is that since the beginning the roster split has meant you can keep Undertaker and HHH away from each other. Brand split really protected both guys and protected them from the shadow of the other. Both guys were the anchors of each brand with the rest of the show deffering to them. All this is assuming Taker doesn't get switched, HHH doesn't get traded back, HHH beating Cena and Batista at Night of Chmpions won't permanently end the brand split, etc. Will Taker retire at next Mania when HHH ends streak? I mean there are going to be some interesting dynamics. It's not going to make it a show I want to see, but may make reading the results interesting. Oh yeah Cole and Lawler can be really amusing together. Lawler has good comic timing, and Cole comes from a comedy writting background and the two play off each other well. I remember them having lots of good Yokozuna/Yoko Ono "who's on first?" type banter. Cole is better at calling wrestling then he was back then and still can mix in the comedy, so the rifs no longer seem like a non-sequitor and more directly connected to the in ring action (the Melina date rape episode of Smackdown had Cole almost making his broadcast partner loose it when Melina got hit with the 619--"Not the first time she's been hit in the back of the head today").

Yeah I read that post. The point is that I think the resistance to his coverage of AAA was largely reader resistance. At the time it read like reader resistance. I'm sure he had sources who didn't like the comparison to lucha. But the bulk of complaints felt like they were comig from readers. I doubt the resistance to shoot stuff is coming from inside the industry. Pro-wrestlers and folks in pro-wrestling find the "MMA is pro-wrestling" to be flattering. Heyman, and Ross both seemed to be among the people who pimped the HBO promotion of De La Hoya-Mayweather as being "pro-wrestling". I get no sense that there is anyone in the "biz" who complains about the MMA coverage. He may cite people in the industry to make his point, but the resistance was from the readership.

I don't know how much of this was sources and how much was readership. I never got the sense that his sources were upset with hislucha coverage, and knowing the nature of the industry I imagine his sources are flattered by thinking that what they are doing is somehow linked to MMA. Objections came from readers. The response to his lucha coverage in the early 90s from his readership was negative. Maybe not largely negative maybe just the negative was more vocal. But you read those issue in like 93/94 and you really get a sense that he was forced to spend more time having to come up with new defensive explanations for lucha coverage than he spent actually getting lucha sources. Just because the people who argued against you ten years ago were wrong and idiots, doesn't mean you are always right.

All this is distraction from basic Muchnik paranoia. Don't know if he's suggesting that Chavo actually showed up to clean up and just said fuck it or what he's suggesting but the who let the dogs out. Suggesting that the WWE would tamper with a crime scene doesn't strike me as absurd as it strikes Bix. Implied in all of the stuff written about Benoit, is that disposing of the drugs is what wrestlers do after another wrestler dies. I mean my favorite wrestling is fucked up thing from the immediate aftermath, was the people in the biz who were shocked that Benoit wouldn't do his own clean up. " I can't believe he left the drugs out, what was he trying to say"... Really a guy kills his family and people are surprised that he didn't make sure to dispose of his drugs. Still if Muchnik's suggesting that the WWE tried to tamper with evidence, they did a really incompetent job of evidence tampering.

http://www.cs.brown.edu/stc/outrea/greenho...on/itworks.html Provides a real simple explanation. Whole page may be worth reading. Pre Calculus texts and Stats texts used to have pages of log tables in the back. You didn't have fancy calculators. You couldn't calculate exact numbers and instead had to go to chart and use interpolation to figure out where answer fell between two known numbers in the table, estimating the answer based on where it fell between two known values. Slide rules used the same principle and you needed linear interpolation to be able to read them. It was necessary skill for any advanced level math. We can actually now do things with mathematical precision pretty easily. You no longer need to predict unknown values. Everyone has a calculator and you can calculate exact values. And so those tables just aren't in your basic stats text. And no one is using a slide rule. I don't think you could buy a slide rule if you wanted to. Interpolation may still be taught but it isn't as important (it was necessary for calculating answers off a slide rule or log table, neither of which are necessary tools) and I doubt taught in high school. I went to DC Public schools and my texts were at least a good ten years old to begin with, (I want to say that my stats book may have had a word problem dealing with the "colored" situation or something as absurd), and I fucking hope they got some new texts. Not extrapolating, I want to say inductive and not deductive but yeah inferring may be the best word.

I don't know if folks do interpolation these days. I took some time off from college and when came back folks had graphing calculators and there were no tables in the back of books anymore. When I was doing math tutoring pretty clearly a subject dropped from curriculum. My guess is that its a dead (no longer taught) math skill at this point. It was used idiomatically to mean filling in gaps between knowns to get an approximate answer. Probably also dead as an idiom. But really feels like a better word choice than deduced. But it's me, fuck if I know anything about proper word choice.

I've just started reading the book, but my memory is Benoit wasn't working a ECW stuntman style in WCW untill Russo showed up. Before that there was big diving headbutt onto a chair in a PPV tag match and a diving headbutt of the top of cage in another tag. There was alot of brawling ringside and through the crowd. PE, now those guys were going through tables in every match. those guys were working ECW crashdummy stuff. But don't remember a ton of chairshots when Benoit was teamed with McMichael.

I was a fan of allmusic for a while. For a while their they had some really great (or at least interesting) writers who seemed to write about whatever interested them. I mean really it's not like anyone assigned Eugene Chadbourne to review the Unesco produced Music of Malaysia record. At some point it became less writer directed and more pop comprehensive, and became less interesting. Also I don't think there is anyway to search by author (if you find an author whose opinions interest you good luck figuring out what else he reviewed). That said wrestling could use a database thats more facts oriented than opinion oriented. The Online World of Wrestling (ex guys who ran Obsessed with wrestling) is really helpfull in finding dates and such.

When putting the set together we had an inccomplete version of this. I'm assumig we had it from Houston tape and not one we got from Mrs. Watts.

Robinson Crusoe is the foundation of the English novel. It was published and initially recieved as a straightforward traveler's tale. All of English novelistic literature is thus founded in an immitation of reality. Still fiction.

Would it be possible to include the actual thread links in this thread?

Again I have yet to read the book and so am only basing stuff off what's been leaked in threads. Have you read Matt Hughes autobiography yet? Pre-murder of his family do the stories about Benoit make him come off any more insane, sadistic, or psychotic than Matt Hughes portrays himself? Being a sadistic psycho in a subculture where that is normative behavior doesn't make killing your own family any more predictable.

I didn't say equal to. At least based on what Bix has pasted he's making a distinction between "no brainers" and guys levels below that. guys who's candidacy he thinks offers interesting comparisons with Ole. some bettercandidates, some lesser candidates, some equivalent.

So I can't actually find the Ole HOF thread but... OK of those guys guys now in the HOF who Meltzer at one point thought were comparable to Ole (some of whom he was strong advocate for inclusion): Bob Backlund Masahiro Chono Undertaker Michael Hayes/ Terry Gordy Is Ken Shamrock in? I thought Pat Patterson was in the original class. Who am I missing?

Kip Frye era is my favorite WCW era and I'd point to him as the best of lot. Still wrote this here in early January: The manager that lets people under him contribute is a smart manager. And while puppets need a puppeteer and Bischoff often let the strings too loose, the manager who is willing to let the people under him contribute creatively...still is and should be given credit. Watching a bunch of WCW I think it's also clear that for better or worse Bischoff is a guy who really really liked his martial arts. Anyplace else and under anyone else,Stevie Ray would have likely been the guy with the big singles push. Bischoff likes kickers the way Vince likes WASPS with Irish last names. And yeah it gave us the Cat, but it meant that Ultimo, Booker T, Jerry Flynn and a ton of other guys were presented as having credible offense. He gets credit for the influence that the cruiser division has had, he gets credit for the influence that Benoit heavyweight style has had, etc. These were things that the "talent" developed on their own. Juve figured out how to work for a US audience. Benoit figured out what the WCW audience would get into. But Bischoff is the guy who put it out there and didnt second guess the talent and tell them to do anything else. Being in charge means you take the credit and blame for everything that happens under you. It's why when Russo says "Giving David Arquette the world title wasn't my idea" it is meaningless. It happens under your watch it's yours.

He may have praised him there too. And probably not praise of Dupree series so much as single Dupree match. But pretty sure it was Dupree match that got pimped as contrast to an Orton stinker when young Orton was being pimped. Sometimes Jewett will look at a series of matches. But this was more his basic two cherry picked matches interestingly taken apart and then uninteresting broad extrapolated conclusions from cherry picked matches. At time remember being more interested in what he said about Dupree in match then about Cena.

I'm not sure. He only shows up in the top ten once, in the DVDVR covering the six months before november 2002. I think Misawa injured Takayama in October 2002 keeping Takayama off the 500 (where he would have been #1). And part of the whole HOLY SHIT TAKAYAMA IS AMAZING! is: http://the-w.com/thread.php/id=8312 So the flaws of the worst of the Smackdown six stuff was already known. On the other hand Summerslam 2002 opener opposite Rey is still one of my favorite Angle matches where it felt like Angle combined his bumping style and intricate reversals into real smart great rudo. But even then the comparison was to Marabunta and not Fuerza. Still my guess is he had a body of matches during that six months that we liked. Shocked that he's above Rey (although Rey was saddled with Edge for most of that period), but not surprised he made the top ten then.

Oddly Fun MSG card up now. Really feels like a B or C level show. No hogan, no savage, no Andre, no real main eventers. But kind of worlds awesomest Heat. Main evennt is tag team battle royale where if one partner goes out both have to leave. Rest of show is singles matches from all the different tag teams. Brian Blair v Brutus Beefcake.-Beefcake really doesn't have the working ability of Austin Idol. On a show with Big John Studd, Beefcake looks like the least worker on the card. Tama v Moondog Rex.-fun match where Tama brings the bumps and Moondog brings the offense. fun workrate match. Did these two teams feud? Bundy v Big Machine- I think Big Machine is Superstar and this is well worked. Dynamite Kid v Anvil Neidhart-I think I liked this more than the Bret v DK match on the DVDVR WWF set. Jacques Rogeau v Iron sheik-I've watched a bunch of Memphis Jacques Rogeua recently and didn't want to watch more but in fast forward felt like I made a mistake fast forwarding through it. Mike Rotunda v Jim brunzell-this is face v face and announcers are really putting over how the MSG crowd is a smart crowd who appreciates this kind of thing. I dug it but actual MSG crowd is filled with loud BORING chants. Davey Boy Smith v Greg Valentine-I think this was my favorite match on show. Sd Jones v Moondog Spot- Moondog works hard. I was hoping for Moondog Spot v Haku Haku v Volkoff- Haku works hard but Volkoff isn't Spot. Bret Hart v. Raymon Rougeau-Less of a WWF match and more a Gran Prix match as such super fun. For some reason they don't use the Moondogs in the battle royale and instead have Steve Gatorwolf/ Strongbow and SD JOnes is rotunda's tag partner. Battle royale is nothing special but I enjoyed watching haku go around stiffing the fuck out of everyone. Not Low ki in ECWA battle royale as never a focus of the match but, he just walks around the ring pasting people. Actual finish with Islanders v Bundy/Studd is pretty hot as well. Normally these MSG shows don't do anything for me but this thing is pretty good top to bottom.

I missed a bunch of this apparently while housebreaking a new puppy. Are we arguing that headrop at beginning of match while ignored long term contributes to vertigo making the crossbody more difficult? Race is a heavyweight wrestler. Lack of selling (or if you want different selling) in juniors matches is a given. Nobody is surprised by no selling in Dynamite match. It's part of what people point to when they prefer heavyweight wrestling. It's why Race spot is more jarring. Angle criticism is pre-smackdown six and picked up during the Smackdown six period. 2001-2002. Cena showed up around 2002 and I think seeing people pop as big for his rolling bodyslams as everyone elses rolling Germans was a big nail in the coffin of that dead end style. there was some praise of Cena v Lesnar series, but most of that was aimed at Lesnar. JDW or CRZ might be able to find where Jewett praised the smartness of the work in some Cena v Dupree matches. CRZ may be able to find where I wrote some flattering things about Cena v Eddy Latin street fight. And I know I wrote some stuff complimentary of the mic work in the Cena/B-2 pairing. But really there wasn't alot of praise for cena as more than amusing undercard act in 2002. But nobody who was criticizing Angle in 2001-2002 period was praising Cena. He just showed up in 2002 and his finisher was a foreign object.

On what part of the debate? I’m a guy who likes good formula. Don’t care for Takada. Liger I like a lot but is midcard New Japan attraction and an indy draw, for guy in that position don’t know if I feel comfortable ranking him above MX. Jumbo in the 70s leaves me cold. My sense is always wow these two guys could have a great match in them, but this isn't it. Like him in the nineties but would rather watch Baba in the 70s and 80s. Don't know if I've ever seen seventies Flair. I’m not the biggest fan of Footloose Kawada. Kobashi is interesting guy to talk about because this classics thread was written in 2002. I wish I had what I wrote about his GHC win in 2003. But from memory the point was that it had some nice opening stuff and then the post big spot to the floor stuff was well done but in the middle you got the sense that both Misawa and Kobashi needed to study Arn Anderson tapes and learn some formula and comedy spots. That they weren’t very smart about time filling in the middle of match and so just exchanged meaningless suplexes when they should be pointing to their head only to get hit with a left or some such. Anyway Kobashi went on to become the one of the four pillars to successfully figure out how to work from the Top, as the “Man”. No more underdog crying “what will it take”…but actual MAN. Watch the next four years of his career and he never did get the Arn Anderson tapes but instead seems to have gotten the Flair ones. As the way he works as the man is by having all of his opponents work as Ric Flair. Kobashi built his matches around having his opponent do Flair spots. Big crowd pleasing Flair comedy spot where Flair tosses opponent into corner for chop only to be reversed in corner and have face win chop exchange. Flair works the leg, wich leads to figure four, which strong face reverses. Run the ropes get caught into power slam etc. Didn’t matter who the Kobashi opponent was. No one who challenged for the GHC belt was a “choad” like Luger and Nikita. Every match, every opponent, same formula. Against a guy like Yoshinari Ogawa, who always works a chickenshit heel Flair game plan I dug it a lot. Against other guys, it could feel frustrating as felt like he was limiting what it is they do. Still the point of it all is that big formula comedy spots were succesfull, got crowd pops, kept matches moving, and were smarter time filler than just exchanging suplexes (protected Kobashi's health for a couple extra years). Formula works. I’m a guy who likes good formula. That all said, if I was going to do a list of top fifty wrestlers, most likely it would be all luchadors.

Amusing thread. Like that Meltzer mentions the superior athleticism of the other guys in comparison. Was hoping for him to list how much Takada and Flair could deadlift vis a vis Doug Furnas too. And reading through wonder how much non big match Jumbo, Jewett watched as I can't imagine him sitting through any of the six man's where he was paired against Hara and did nothing but missed clothesline exchange spots.

Ron Garvin v Iron Sheik from WWC is pretty good and well there is alot of good Ivan Kolloff out there. Has Meltzer really been harsher on Backlund than he is on Tommy Rich. Unless you work a big bumping style, not a guy who seems to recognize what it is that white meat babyfaces effectively contribute to matches.