tomk

That doesn't feel like an accurate description of our conversation (which I am trying to respect here). If you want me to publicly post the Pms I will do so. You raised your reaction to a thread from three + years ago, I think some context to that response was neccesary. You described one of them as being a novelty match and the other as being a sign that people appreciate Michaels good work. My point was they were both praised using the same criteria.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/sports/o...mp;pagewanted=2 the culture of people working through injuries is not uniquely Japanese.

I don't know if anyone has ever called him a Graham, Ventura, Nash, Ron Reiss, Studd level bum but that's aiming the bar low. 24/7 is a great resource and I have seen him get outworked by WWF era JYD in tags a couple times. You can watch late 90s matches with Page or tagged with Rodman where he contributes more positively. And its quite possible that it is a myth that he was "lazy" working in the WWF when the truth was that he did as he was told and worked WWF formula that was aked of him. Yes but he was someone who was deeply hurt by that accusation and regularly made the "people are prejudiced against the opinions of bigots" plea. I didn't want to make it, but it's a fair shot. And really would be improper to revisit the old threads without keeping it in mind.

In the end high flying didn't become Sayama's calling card either.

Well yes no one could do anything with Big John Studd. But problem with your analysis is that it isn't that Hogan was just having spectacular matches in Japan opposite Fujinami. Hogan was also having really good Japanese matches opposite Andre the Giant, Killer Khan, Abby etc. I've seen enough high end Kimala and high end Bundy that the idea that we should blame Hogan's performances on his opponents seems silly.

Reading through this a bunch of quickish points: 1) I think part of what’s missing from people reflecting back on the HBk vis a vis Henry threads is one of the points was that Henry had as many if not more moves in his arsenal than HBK from same period. And yet you’d get people posting “but HBK has bigger moveset”. Part of the idiocy of a good chunk of the "MOVES~!" discussion on the net is alot of it involved people saying "MOVES~!" without actually discussing the moves wrestlers use. I have seen a lot of praise for the Mania Taker v Michaels match. That praise hasn’t been about the moves in the match or the workrate. The praise has been that it was a very well scripted match between two professionals who are masters of conveying emotions through physicality, who know how to captivate your attention through their facial expressions which stay in character for whole match as they never make you forget their reason for being in the world and in this match where they managed to create this epic match feel yadda yadda. These are the exact same criteria under which Show v Mayweather was praised. HBK v Undertaker gets some additional praise for the novelty of it's length. EL-P's posts were: From crossfacechicken wing’s 3/4/85 observer recap: Schneider pointed out that Dundee was a guy with moves and so EL_P threw out workrate sprinter Choshu's name instead. EL_P may have just as well said that "I don’t like Saturn cause he doesn’t have enough moves, high enough workrate." How do you respond to that? I sure as hell wasn't. I mean the discussion was a response to Rob's points, cause there is at least something worth arguing about there. There is nothing to argue with folks who think Saturn didn't do enough moves. EL-P was silent cause he had nothing worthwhile to say. 2) I'm a little reluctant to make this point. Anarchristxxx very politely asked me that I stop making fun of him for being a Holocaust denier and thinking that blacks were a subhuman. He said that he stopped posting that type of thing on wrestling boards two years ago and I should stop harping on it. I have respected that request. But since this is a thread where he wants to revisit discussions from more than two years ago, he’s forced my hand. In the Henry threads Anarchristxxx was a guy who regularly posted that Henry was rubbish and Booker T was worthless. At the same time he was regularly posting about blacks as a "species" being subhuman and incapable of culture, yadda yadda. People suggested that he might have less than savory reasons for thinking that Henry was rubbish and Booker T was useless he responded annoyed that anyone qould question his unbiased judgement. Called people who did biggoted. Thinking that his motives were false demonstrated prejudice against white supremacists. Bigotry against bigots of course is the worst kind of bigotry (bigotry squared). I think the problem doesn't start when people start saying, and I quote, "people who don't like Mark Henry don't like him because he's fat, black and sweaty". The problem starts when people who think all blacks are trash that society needs to be rid of call individual blacks rubbish. 3) Historical revisionism: First it’s kind of ridiculous to read a Holocaust denier complaining about the evils of historical revisionism. Second the historical record is pretty clear. Historical record has most successful wrestler of all time being Hogan, guys who had the most success with taking wrestling national being Vince Mcmahon and Ted Turner. Most of us here aren’t interested in questioning that history. We’re doing aesthetic criticism…watch a bunch of matches and criticize aesthetics of them. That’s not historical revisionism. There’s an interesting post on toa that jdw wrote in reflection on Misawa’s death: It's interesting to look at the history of how US puroresu watchers opinions evolved over decade. But the idea that you should watch 1993 New Japan with the same eyes as the US puroresu watchers of 1993 and not 1995 eyes or 2009 eyes is silly (not something that jdw is arguing). It's something that's worth thinking about while watching the wrestling tapes but not critical to understanding or appreciating them. Not watching them with US 1993 eyes isn't revisionism.

I hadn't heard about him training anyone pre iceberg. Who came out of that?

When's the last time you've watched a WWF Shamrock match? Spotty small heavyweight in Jericho was matched up with small heavy who did lots of rope running and ranas= how things are done around here?

At what point was Shamrock considered to be a stiff worker?

The one thing I can say for Styles is that I enjoyed him when he was doing straight up corny comedy; complaining when Simon Diamond announced Dick Hertz..." His name is Richard!!!". Him as corny guy who didn't like double entendre's or degenerates was always amusing to me.

For a guy who woked (and was pushed ) for Bert Prentice alot, he sure talks about how if he had a pussy (like Mrs Texas) he would have used it just like her to get himself ahead.

If the implication always was that she was being paid to keep an autopsy closed...

Really? I mean I guess there are more black wrestlers than black jockeys but I woulds be surprised if someone could prove that wrestling was as integrated as horse racing.

I really have enjoyed the Moondogs as singles workers in the early eighties working workrate undercard matches against the likes of Tama or David Sammartino, etc on 24/7. I have preconceived notion of WWF Moondogs as shittybut they are fun workrate singles guys. I used to write reviews of TNA shows. I used the workrate report format that I think Ollie (forgot his last name) put together on RSPW.You separate the stuff that worked for you/the effective parts of the show from the “what didn’t work”/the bad parts and write about both separately. Doing this for TNA was difficult cause I had to work really hard to come up with something that they were doing well each week. On some level when the overall product is shitty, it’s far more dishonest to make sure to find something good to highlite each week. Calling crap crap doesn't make someone unfairly biased.

I don't get Ben Stein dull droning. He has a Don Cornelius style of detachment. Watch a Cornelius interview and watch a Solie one. I don't get above it either. He's to be respected so as the stuff around him is to be respected. I've watched more WWF wrestling as a result of 24/7 then I did growing up and get the sense that the announcing there was meant more as to create a contrast. The announcers are not Mystery Science Theatre, but there is a real nudge nudge wink wink ironic feel. The wrestling plays straight man and the announcers are like the audience in on the joke. Even with Lawler's Henny Youngman routine, I think alot of what happened in the attitude era is you have the announcers as straightmen with the wrestlers being the guys in on the joke with the audience. Solie on some level is a straight man but on another level he's working for poromotions that weren't running straight man/ironic comedian contrast. It wasn't about one offsetting the other in that kind of way. Solie is to be respected not because he's above the wrestling but instead because if he's portrayed as respectable then the stuff around him (the wrestling) is also worth the same type of respect. The GCW/Memphis cooperation pointis really neat because you can watch Solie and Russell on commentary with each other and the contrast exposes each guys weaknesses as well as highlighting their strenghs. They take a while to establish a good rhythm with each other and are often accidentally stepping on each others stuff. Both guys are really good at dramatic understatement but Solies is more sports broadcaster-ish while Russell is more folksy weatherman. At one point Solie is trying to get the Batttens over as being four sports college athletes while Russell is trying to get them over as just being "swell guys".

Ernest Goes To Jail is a spectacular movie. And I thin Family Matters actually ages well. Its comedy is broader than Full House and the jokes and bits are legit funny (unlike Full House which went for cute over broad laugh). It became very Urkel centric very quickly but it goes so far over the top with its Urkel centricness that you don't mind. I mean Balki was a one joke character while as Dean has explained Urkell was able to be the ideal love interest for everyone: Myrtle ( for Waldo), Stefan Urquel( for Laura), Original Gangsta Dawg (for Harriete), and Urkel (for Carl) and then there's the Urkel bot. Dean did his long thing on how Urkel was able to

That's not really my point. That's a side argument to my point. I don't want to get into the exact history of Jericho's 2002 push either, its been along time since I read the Won/Torch type backstage gossip from that period. I think you're sense of fan reaction and timeline is accurate. Worth pointing out that most of this was during the 8 month period HHH was out with injury, Jericho won the undisputed title I want to say a week before HHH's actual return. I'd agree that Rey was also a crowd forced hand situation. Although should be noted that that hand has been kept pretty tight...despite being one of the few attendance, ratings, and merch draws they have...he's still a guy who they are content to keep hovering around the undercard. My Actual point was: -HHH wants to be 17 time world champion. -Inorder to do that he needs to loose the belt several times inorder to win it back. -He needs credible opponents who aren't over enough to be able to anchor the promotion without him That sounds like an conspiratorially HHH is evil internet screed. It's not intended as such, as there is nothing uniquely HHH to it, that's the way the biz works. Ron Garvin is willing to loose clean to Flair (which Dusty won't do). Isn't a guy who is over enough that people will want to see him v other heels. He isn't a threat to either Dusty or Flair.. He's an ideal guy to trade the title with. Owen not being a guy who is super over isn't something that would keep him from getting a quickie title. It feels like something that works in his favor.

Is that really accurate? I would say that it's true about Eddie. Where when you followed the Observer it was pretty clear that his rise was organic and the organic quality of it semi pissed management off. I remember lots written about the Big Show Us title feud beign an attempt to cut off and control the response he was geting. There was a sense that the fans forced their hand with Eddie. But Benoit and Jericho both feel like guys who were pushed to title as sub Ronnie Garvin placeholders...if you want to be real cynical as guys to help HHH get his 16 world title run. Vince announcing that Benoit was "4 real" wasn't him responding to the crowd but him concerned that the fans needed to be told. I think the WWF had enough of a seniority system that Owen would probably have had a title run, welll not a run so much as being put in the Hardcore Holly/ Kane position of guy who is meaningless veteran challenger (who like Kane not Holly) could get quicky title win and just as quickly loose it back.

So I've seen enough 24/7 to really learn that I like undercard Moondog singles matches. Still not sure why crapping all over something that wasn't particularly good is a sign of poor journalistic skills. Have we really gotten to the point where you're not a good journalist unless you constantly remind folks that Mussolini did make the trains run on time?

In regular social life I find it easier to talk about wrestling with people who don't follow it then with guys who watch RAW/Smackdown every week.

No one writing about puroresu really sticks in my craw or has my goat at this point. I was not knocking Allan4l here. Hell I don’t really care one way or another if no one ever refers to a Muto scale for blood. I don’t really have a ton invested in Kawada v Misawa. I’m saddened by the current "artistic" state of Japanese heavyweight wrestling (something I used to really enjoy); don’t really care one way or another about the state of discussion. The existence of the English puro fanbase at figure four doesn’t bother me so much as amuse me in its bizarreness.. I wasn't mocking the figure four people I was saying that the idea that 6-3-94 represents all the holys, and the pinnacle of wrestling as an art form, that this is what wrestling aspires to be, yadda yadda may have been a talking point in 1999. But in 2009 it's remembered as a good match but not "what all wrestling should aspire to be". I don't feel one way or another is to if that is a good ot bad thing. The idea that it invented the modern smark and modern wrestling discussion is historically inaccurate (there are 80s Observer's being recapped here) and it doesn't influence the smark discussion today. Taking shots at that match as Holy Grail is like taking shots at Spuds Mckenzie. Its dated and doesn't have a ton of meaning to any real contemporary conversations. It should also be said that the circa 99 discussion was all about context with perhaps people overanalyzing context.

I stand by my previous post. I’m not going to pull a Rob and accuse people of lying. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7776046.stm But even if people have seen it, it does not inform any of the current discussions. Doesn't mean anything to people currently writing about puro. Doesn’t inform their writing.

I don't read the figure four, last time I did Bryan did do more lucha coverage than Dave but less insightfull than Scott Keith. The story Dave did was that this was a surprising finish, but the more important story was that EMLL didn't have Mistico available for big show, didn't have Perro Jr either (or Wagner or were willing to make concessions for Santo) and so they hotshotted a surprise finish. No one talked about it being a good match or a good finish at the time. It took about a month for the match to make the interwebs and people to go "wow despite the booking this was a really good match" and by that time, I don't know about Bryan but Dave had certainly moved onto other things. You would think for Dave to influence a match to be worked match of the year he would have to discuss the quality of the match. It's possible Bryan influenced the vote or that the votes were influenced from something else. Who knows? Still again not that many people voted for it.

That’s not the argument I’m making. Of course I don’t have highregard for the average Observer voter’s knowledge of lucha or anything else. But you’re original statement was that you didn’t think people who were familiar with Blue Panther’s work would think well of this match. That seemed ridiculous to me. My response is I can’t think of a better mask match in Panther’s career. I’m a guy who tries to track down all the Blue Panther footage I can get my hands on. It placed well on cubsfan tapatia awards which is a pretty small group (of one would hope folks familiar with Panther’s work). I don't see any reason to believe that it wouldn't appeal to people who are familiar with Panther's work. You complained about the length of the falls. The complaint read to me like the functional equivalent of complaining that Austin v Taker wasn’t 2/3 falls broadway. For comparison’s sake the mask match where Ultimo Guerrero gets revenge for fellow lagunero Blue Panther and takes Villano V’s mask had a two minute first fall a second fall that was a little over a minute and a third fall that went about six minutes. Or if you want to go to Blue Panther’s big run in 93ish his mask match with Love Machine had a first fall that went four minutes, second fall that went about 5 that ended with a DQ (Panther winning two falls in a row). Blue Panther v Vulcano had an under two minute first fall that ended in DQ when Panther refused to stop attacking opponent in the ropes. Antonio Pena came out and removed the ref and then replaces with a face ref and you get a two minute second fall that ends in DQ when Vulcano refuses to break at ropes and about a nine to ten minute third fall. Again neither were quicky mask pulls. Both are actually accidental mask removals were wrestler teases mask removal has his second advise against it and then accidentally removes mask. And neither is a quick fall. sure I would have liked a little longer falls but again I would have liked Austin/Undertaker to go broadway. First fall ends with Panther’s mask ripped off. Villano V is pissed that he accidentally removed mask and was DQed so he rips mask off and throws it at crowd. Panther goes to the back to get replacement mask. Second fall ends with Villano’s mask ripped off. Perro Jr puts towel over Villano’s head and protects him from the faces while Villano V goes to back to get new mask. He comes back out with Perrito leading and commisoner pushing him toward ring. Wandering suggests aimlessly milling about. That wasn’t what happened. Again that’s not the point I was making. But 1)Yes Pena did commandeering ambulance spots. 2)Diego Chico Corrales spitting out his mouth piece allowing his trainer to take his time to clean it and return it is a match restart spot that adds additional question and drama to a match. Stops and restarts are part of wrestling formula. Medical team removes a guy for him to come back is a standard spot. Lucha with its multiple falls takes advantage of that a lot, guys get bandaged up between falls, get new masks between falls etc all the time. Stops and restarts are typical of wrestling, typical of matches with multiple falls/rounds, typical of lucha. It is a storytelling device that works. As to segundacaida types and who votes in awards. I think Phil has a current observer sub. I remember voting in 2007 but no sub this year, I don't know if Phil has ever put a ballot together. Based on numbers of people who bought the PWFG survey comp I would feel safe assuming that at least 60 of our readers spend the money on an observer subscription and my general sense of people is that probably 27 of those are organized enough to actually submit a ballot. Perhaps I'm underestimating there. Despite not having a sub I do read the observer pretty regularly and don't remember it getting really more than a paragraph when it happened and I would guess that Meltzer still hasn't watched it (hadn't watched it at time of awards issue). I don't remember the sheet coverage being about major upset or big moment, so much as there was "business" coverage about it being hotshotted as result of not having either Mistico or Perro available and the poor gate, etc. I remember being surprised that it did as well as it did in voting. But really its not like it got a ton of votes. So Blue Panther v Viallno V got 30 first place votes and would need to have gotten at minimum 148 second and third place votes. Which isn't really a ton of votes.

A couple years ago I saw a Tommy Rich v Snuka match. There is about six-seven years difference in age I think. Both guys were huge recreational drug users who I imagine could have gone line for line over the course of their careers. Both guys probably took the same amount of bumps (not many) and I'm not sure of Rich crossbody is anymore or less damaging on the body than the Superfly splash. Both of them also put more weight on their bodies than their knees can probably support (Snuka through steroids and Rich through boilermakers). Snuka is completely imobile while Rich is pretty spry for a fat man and did the bulk of the work for the match.