JerryvonKramer

For what it's worth, Terry Funk disagreed with Flair ALOT in his book, and called him out a few times over disagreements about various guys. But when they did the joint shoot, they were nice as pie to each other and didn't disagree on anything. Bret is a more prickly character than Terry, so it led to more awkwardness, but in person it seems like people don't really want to disagree with Ric face to face, whether it's out of respect or not wanting to hurt his feelings or whatever. Flair clearly has things he likes (stiffness, selling, motion, action) and things he doesn't (matwork) and things he thinks he can't do (offense). It's a pretty clear philosophy even if he doesn't always articulate it.

Which stories are you thinking about in particular? I can't remember many he told. One about Savage.

I see Bulldogs as guys who did high end offense, it's what sets them apart in the 80s. I also get the impression Bret is unaware really of the Southern Crockett guys and what they could do. Steamboat and co were workrate guys. Bret's view of things is entirely skewed by a WWF or Northern centric mindset.

Also, if you look at what Bret did in a match, did he really work harder than say Race? Who was pinballing around the ring for thirty minutes+ every night.

Did Marty Jones and Rocco do 57 different varieties of suplex? I still haven't seen any real bombs in WoS.

"With this show, Kris Zellner has foregone producing podcasts and has moved into the realm of making audiobooks." - Parv, May 2015.

Elliott has kind of inspired me to go on a binge. I have the day off with no distraction. I think I'm going to spend the next 12 hours watching wrestling. Expect a lot of reviews today.

Flair haters gonna hate.

You won't get too many arguments from me on Lex, always thought his rep was a bit unfair. Hence my "even Luger" above. His main crime it seems to me was not being one of the boys, then second not loving wrestling.

Broadly speaking though, would you agree that both Bret and Flair are not really in the same bracket of heatseeker as Brody / Sid / Warrior / The Road Warriors or even someone like Luger?

What do you think are the best studio matches? What's the best one you've ever seen? I love a TV studio match. They always feel a bit different to arena matches. Here's my favourite and the best I've seen to date: Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (WCW 12/28/85) Truly I love this one. You can hear the chops echo in the studio.

I do think he harmed Lex Luger's career. But of the list of guys who were difficult to do business with, Flair doesn't even make the top 500. I mean was he wrong to be against Dusty at that moment? I don't think so.

Flair in the 90s is a strange case because he clashed with people who he probably felt had no business being in the business (see: Jim Herd, Eric Bischoff). I also think that he did see Jim Crockett Jr as the big boss in the same way he might have seen Vince, or back in the day Sam Muchnick / Eddie Graham / or any of the old NWA mafia guys. And even in the late 90s, he'd do jobs and put people over. But this says more about their respective management styles. Guys who tried to be one of the boys (Jim Crockett Jr / Eric) or those who were literally clueless about the business (Herd), were people who Flair wouldn't take shit from. But even our ultimate "company man", DiBiase, clashed with Eric Biscoff. A lot of the old pros did, because the lunatics were running the asylum. As to the rest of your post, it's well-thought out and sensible. And I can see why people want more rebels now in 2015, when most of the locker-room seem to be company men and Vince goes on Austin's podcast and calls them all millenials who lack ambition. I can see it. But the "nuance" is that most people aren't hard extremes. Steve Austin wasn't really a "rebel", he'd stand up for shit he believed in but MOST of the time he'd do his job. Bret was the same. 9 tens out of 10, he's going to go out there and do what is expected of him. And that helps with their equity if they ever do make a stand. Warrior, Sid ... The Road Warriors ... any of the real guys who were difficult to do business with, didn't deserve that because with them it's always a case of "fool me once, fool me twice". I agree also that Hogan was ultimately bad for business at the tail end of WCW. All of those guys who were on guaranteed contracts with creative control who refused to job were bad for business.

Sad to see you become the fantasy booking version of Honky Tonk Man, Steven.

Best mustache in wrestling, discuss Most well-kept beard, discuss Stephanie McMahon, would you? Which of the McMahons do you think is kinkiest? What's your favourite high spot and why? Kayfabe-wise, do you think the piledriver hurts only the neck, or does it hurt the top of the head too? To what extent do you value character work in your wrestling and how does this affect the your ratings both of matches and of individual wrestlers? How prepared are you to watch wrestling outside of your wheelhouse? Curt Hennig or Barry Windham, why? That'll do for now.

The definition of a pyrrhic victory. You were always the TNA to my WWE, the minor leagues. This would be the equivalent of "winning" if someone had put a bomb in the Standford office and killed Vince and his entire staff.

Ha ha, let's not get too political Mick. I've been accused of always siding with The Man many times. I think guys like Ted, Flair, Arn etc. are better for the business than guys like Sid, Brody, Warrior. If everyone was like the latter guys, then how would anyone ever get over? Vince might reward Warrior short-term so his PPV goes well, but then he'd immediately fire him, blackball him, and years later release childish DVDs desecrating his legacy. Whereas the soliders get Hall of Fame treatment, guest spots, etc. etc., so long-term it paid off to be a good soldier. If you give too much power to the boys, what you get is late 90s WCW. It's why Vince now has a monopoly.

Have you seen his matches against Inoki circa 81? I think those might be interesting for you.

One of my deepest loves is guys hitting each other very very hard. Wahoo might make my list for that ability alone. Hansen is the stiffest of all. Have you seen that match me and Steven went gaga for vs. Kawada yet? If you have limited time, stick that one on the top of the pile.

I don't think you're right Mick. Ted has maximum respect in the business, total. Whereas you don't see a lot of guys talking up Rude. I just made the post in the Flair podcast thread, but look at the list of heatseekers. Brody. Luger. Sid. Warrior. The latter three in particular have zero respect from anyone. Terry Funk in his book repeatedly talks about wanting to be a good and loyal soldier. His first loyalty was to the NWA. Then to Giant Baba.

I also think that Flair -- like DiBiase -- was essentially a "good soldier" and always has been. It's one of the reasons he was NWA champ. A lot of guys who broke into the business under people like Verne took well to hard leadership and instruction. If you think about the heatseekers and so on, it starts with people like Brody. Ultimate Warrior. Sid. Luger. Vince has always been a master manipulator who can adopt the style of management to fit the situation. That style clearly works with Ric.

I can't really see you being that high on Hansen, Matt, since 90% of his matches are worked following a similar structure.

Interesting list. Questions / comments Satanico What would you point to for him? Negro Casas Ditto. I still really feel like I need to get into Lucha and might just beeline straight to all the highend stuff. Toshiaki Kawada Mitsuharu Misawa Interesting that you have these guys below Flair. Sangre Chicana Hijo del Santo As with the other Lucha guys. Genichiro Tenryu Tatsumi Fujinami Nick Bockwinkel Buddy Rose This back half looks strong. Ricky Morton Steve Regal Super high for these two. Kenta Kobashi Giant Baba Very high placement for Baba, interesting. I saw him doing well in mine but not that well. Kobashi a fair bit lower than Misawa / Kawada. Daniel Bryan Vader Dustin Rhodes Super high for Dustin here. Jack Brisco Nice to see him making people lists. Bobby Eaton Randy Savage Ricky Steamboat Arn Anderson Interesting run here. None of them look out of place. Jushin Liger Kerry von Erich Super high for Kerry. I need to see more high-end Liger. Yoshiaki Yatsu Yay. I love Yatsu too, but this is pretty high. Billy Robinson Seems low relative to Brisco and Baba. Interesting. Robinson is the 70s guy I'm looking forward to exploring the most . Rick Martel High rating. Barry Windham Ted Dibiase Tully Blanchard Michael Hayes Interesting run of guys here. Barry over both Ted and Tully interesting, but I can see all this is ballpark. With the exception of the Lucha and Memphis guys, our lists would look quite similar so far. Tajiri Is this the Tajiri from the Monday Night Wars?! Masa Fuchi Bret Hart Chris Adams Steve Austin In isolation this run looks strange to me. Fuchi better than Bret, Chris Adams right there with them. With Austin right there behind them. This would be my biggest disagreement so far. Andre the Giant Curt Hennig Ron Garvin Bobby The Brain Heenan Mick Foley Fit Finlay Sgt Slaughter Terry Gordy Jerry Blackwell Steve Williams Dusty Rhodes Hulk Hogan Brian Pillman This run is starting to look more mish-mash, but I can see you trying to get in guys you like. I think a lot of people will do this in their 70-100 range. Tommy Rogers Interesting that you ranked Rogers. I think he might just miss out for me. Mocho Cota Interested in how much Cota is out there beyond what is on the 80s set. Is there really enough? Cool list though man!

On that, at one point Flair seems to suggest that he'd never seen a superplex till that Summerslam match, but doesn't Steamboat hit one on him in 89? Or was he saying he'd never seen Bret do that move? I was confused by that.

What offense did Bret really innovate anyway?