JerryvonKramer

If we take a step back from racism a second, the main split we've been seeing in this thread is between people who are assuming on the most basic level that the world is made up of relatively autonomous individuals pursuing their own separate interests and those who assume that they are largely structural products of their time and place. Broadly speaking the former view is capitalist (see Milton Friedman) and the latter is Marxist. We will struggle to see eye to eye on this because we are talking about differences in fundamental assumptions about the world far beyond wrestling. I made a 15-part video series on this should anyone be interested. There is also a secondary split between textualism (or formalism) and contextualism (or historicism). I could recommend some books on how difficult this split is to resolve if anyone is interested, including four written by some bozo. The reason I was so hostile to Herodos's suggestions about cultural imperialism is because they reduce the individual agency of the fan while pointing inevitably beyond wrestling to explain something I think can be explained largely within wrestling. I will have a think about Dylan's set of questions. Right now I have to go to church for a christening so I'll take that with me to ponder.

Also I feel like there were El Bandito style Mexican heels in Texas territories. Think of heel Guerreros. And there were babyfaces like Jose Lothario, but they just didn't work like luchadores.

That raises a good question: why weren't there more racist "evil Mexican" characters in Texas wrestling? Wrestling certainly wasn't progressive when it came to Japan and the Middle East. Maybe there were and I just don't know of them? World war 2 is all

Possible reasons for lucha penetration being limited in the US: 1. Mil Mascaras. I mentioned him before because I wonder if he had a vested interest in keeping himself as a special attraction by keeping other luchadores off the cards. Dos Caras would come in as his tag partner. They worked the various tag tournaments in the NWA including in Georgia, Crockett and Florida. As well as in the RWTL in Japan. Mil worked MSG too. Masked luchadore in New York other than Mil seem to be low card or even jobber fakes -- see Slaughter cobra clutch challenge deal. Mascaras also had Apter on lock down, so the mags featured him a lot compared to other Mexicans, somewhat similar to Moolah and the other women. 2. The territory that most featured luchadores, LA under Mike LaBelle, was one of the first to die and be taken over by Vince. LA became one of the first expansion towns and a Hogan stronghold thereafter. Vince had zero interest in maintaining any lucha elements on LA cards, so the primary Mexican - US crossover point aside from Mascaras was severed. ---- Over on the Japanese side meanwhile in WWF you have the Inoki - Ali connection as well as President Shinma. NJPW workers come in regularly on WWF house shows, for example Yatsu. Also workers like Prof Tanaka, Mr Saito and Mr Fuji were put over as major heels on the main roster. In NWA land, every territory had a Mr Fuji equivalent, and Saito himself traveled widely. Jumbo Tsuruta had runs, including most memorably in the AWA. The NWA champion would travel to Japan also. Mr Baba had a policy of ensuring his up and comers spent a year or so plying their trade in US territories.

Maybe take it to PMs then to save everyone else having to read this shit.

You are telling the community that the results of their list was bland and middle of the road. And you are wondering why phrases like "arrogant hipster" are floating around? Keep going.

I was saying Rude's 92 over indexes vs Ted's whole career. I got angry and apologised, you bringing this up now is deflection. The GWE confirmed every major position I held and restored some faith that common sense prevailed over the ballot. Eccentric positions came out in the wash. The sour taste was left by people being hysterical on the results thread which I didn't post in after #100. You wanted derailment. Now what?

All this is crap and you've come across badly in this thread. In GWE I said "make a dispassionate assessment of their career as objectively as you can." In this thread I've said "some people who aren't into Lucha think it sucks and it comes down to taste" You've said it's about cultural imperialism. Let's focus on that and not on my perfectly legitimate GWE stances.

You didn't get the nature of my GWE stance clearly or you wouldn't be saying this stuff. My point was only ever that it shouldn't be a favourites list. There is zero value in rehearsing those arguments now. Zero. Entirely irrelevant.

More total deflection and derailment that is not relevant to this thread. GWE isn't relevant to this thread. I'm proud of my Fair for Flair mini-series and stand by it. My post-script speaks for itself and I stand by it. Stop deflecting.

Summary of thread which has remained the case throughout from page 1 till now: 1. Some people don't like the fact that other people don't like lucha. 2. Rather than accept the fact they just don't like it, they instead try to come up with other explanations cultural or contextual. 3. People come out and say they don't like lucha, get accused of trolling or are attacked personally. What did I miss? This has been the whole thread. It's not awful because of those of us who have just baldly stated the fact we don't like it, it's awful because people have insisted on over complicating the response to that. I suspect the net result is that people want to speak to those lucha fans less not more.

If the burial is of someone the community likes though, do you expect that tweet to have an afterlife? What does that afterlife look like?

It's not relevant at all to this because I literally do not care if anyone thinks my faves suck. It's not really fair to bring up GWE since the whole argument there (from me) was about how the thing should be about dispassionate assessment of cases, not a list of favourites. I have zero interest in going over those arguments. Zero. And see them as being entirely irrelevant to this thread.

I do see more than just the 8 people I follow. List of about 150 people or so. Still quite a small sampling I grant you but it's the impression I've got over the past year -- for whatever that is worth which might be nothing.

I will say that the situation on twitter is not the same as on pwo. As I've said before it seems to be a culture on twitter more that people aren't allowed to dislike anything.

No need to try to derail or deflect by trying to put focus back on me personally. Cheap argumentation tactic and foul play. Underlying point remains that people say stuff sucks all the time and it only really becomes a problem if Lucha is involved. No point bringing up GWE cos it was abnormal conditions with stakes. It should be considered off topic and a derailment.

None of any of this has anything to do with the point NL was making

Please reconcile those two statements. Here's my guess: When you say "It sucks" about something people like, there is no distinction. When other people do it... it's wrong? He's saying Lucha fans come across as being thin skinned so people feel like they have to tread on egg shells around them.Whereas, for example, you come across as taking criticism with maturity and restraint? ;-) Again totally pointless

Pointless ad hominem attack

Please reconcile those two statements. Here's my guess: When you say "It sucks" about something people like, there is no distinction. When other people do it... it's wrong? He's saying Lucha fans come across as being thin skinned so people feel like they have to tread on egg shells around them.

All of this is true

WWF - msg, Philly spectrum, Boston garden, Meadowlands, cap centre ... by 84 they were running LA (Olympic Auditorium) and St. Louis (Kiel) also. MACW - Greensboro (final conflict, starrcade) Georgia - Omni AWA - they ran big shows in Chicago co-promoted with Dick the Bruiser's WWA, although by 84 I don't know how big those shows were. Also: St Paul Civic Center, Minneapolis Metrodome Mid-South - New Orleans Superdome WCCW - Dallas Sportatorium Florida - St Petersburg, Bayfront Center Central States - Kansas (Memorial Hall)

I'm gonna make some effort over the next month to try to get into lucha. Perhaps without the pressures of GWE looming something might finally click.

On iPhone so minimal notes Lucha 3.1 Satanico vs. Shiro Koshinaka (Hair vs. Hair) (7/30/84) Very good arm work from Koshinaka in the first fall, laser focus, good intensity. Pin was too sudden though. They go to selling like they've been in a long war way too quickly in the second fall, I'm not buying it. Pin comes very suddenly after a sloppy suplex from Satanico. Somehow Satanico moves like a sack of potatoes falling on the mat in both his offense and bumping, quite unusual. More towards scrappy than crisp or graceful. Third fall and the work on Satanico's left arm from 10 or so minutes ago feels like a distant memory, they never went back to that after the first fall. Satanico gets colour. A few hot near falls. Don't understand what the finish was. This was not a very Lucha-y match. Felt more structured, first fall shine, second fall heat, third fall finish over 25+ mins. That said, there was no real long-term psychology. Very spirited performance from Koshinaka, a worker I know virtually nothing about. I honestly thought Satanico brought the match down in parts. Not bad, but the first fall seems somewhat dislocated from the rest of the match and the finishes of each fall were abrupt and poor. I was surprised to see a Japanese guy apparently playing a babyface role in Mexico. He seemed to have the crowd behind him too. ***1/2

Why is that? Not enough character? If lucha is too much like abstract art / ballet, shoot is too much like real sport. I'm a goldilocks fan who likes things "just right"