JerryvonKramer

I don't really like this point. First because it is not exactly true, and second because I feel like you are trying to question or undermine my critical acumen. Luckily we have a thread here which lists everyone's five star matches: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/30977-your-34-matches/&do=findComment&comment=5669539 Here are the all-time numbers of 5-star matches I've given: JCP / NWA: 4 WCW: 3 WWF: 8 Mid-South: 3 AWA: 1 Memphis: 0 AJPW: 23 NOAH: 1 NJPW: 5 Lucha: 2 Indies: 1 All Japan women: 1 So in all the reviews I've ever written or recorded in podcast form, I've handed out 5 stars a total of 52 times. I don't know how many matches I've reviewed total, but it has to be across four figures at this stage across written reviews and podcasts. I just don't take kindly to someone saying I'm handing out five stars willy nilly. I've worked hard to be as consistent as I possibly can be in all of my ratings.

I didn't want to derail WK11 thread, so here is my reply to OJ here: It's because my beef has always been more to do with presentational elements (promos, commentary, angles, character work, etc.) than it is to do with in-ring quality. I am not an ideologue though, I'll watch good wrestling from any time or any place. Although I do think on the whole an above average worker in the 80s (e.g. Terry Taylor, Dick Slater) had better fundamentals than an above average wrestler now (e.g. Kevin Owens). But this ultimately comes down to style. As a self-styled "goldilocks fan", I ideally want psychology AND athleticism / cool moves in my wrestling. So my sweet spots are almost all guys who can deliver both. The wrestling now seems geared more towards athleticism, and psychology can go missing. I think it's because of the culture of hitting lots of fancy bombs rather than layering the bombs. There is no obvious hierarchy a lot of the time. Moves of Kevin Owens as listed on Wikipedia: Moves of Dory Funk Jr: * I'd probably add in his stump piledriver too, as well as the running forearm. I've watched a good few matches from both guys. Kevin Owens struggles to escalate violence in his matches because all his moves are called things like "Swinging fisherman from the top rope" Dory, who has a lovely pared down moveset that still has some depth can escalate violence by moving through his high spots towards the biggest bomb in his arsenal which is usually that "Delayed double underhook suplex". We can chalk it up to style preference, but for me economy is important. I want enough moves so that there is clear progression, but not so few that guys are only throwing punches. Goldilocks like I said. All of these things are still possible in 2017.

@ Matt D - Okay deal!

I'd request his take on Goto / Shibata too. I will offer that Hase / Misawa 2000 review in return!

Case, did you think the main had more heat than Goto / Shibata? Just curious. For my part, overall, I thought it was quite interesting to see four big matches all in a row and all worked quite differently. I'm not sure that I could make any blanket statements about "the style" because I saw four different styles in four matches. I'd be very interested to get Elliott's longer takes on Shibata / Goto, because that was the standout match for me. I've seen others talk up Tanahashi / Naito as the stand out match. I was persuaded to watch ALL FOUR of them by Chad, and I'm glad I did. I'd recommend Elliott and others do the same. It was rewarding overall, even though I had things I actively disliked about two of them.

I guess my frustration is ... why can't he just do a basic elbow drop or a stomp or a knee drop? Why is it an elbow drop with a Muta twist? When I teach students how to write, my first rule is this: "never use a fancy word where a simpler alternative would do". AKA do not highlight the word press SHIFT and F7 and pick a word that looks more impressive than the one you wanted to use, it tends not to make you look more clever but less clever. I know long-time wrestling writer John Lister has the same views on this because he was strongly associated with the Plain English Campaign, here he is providing a 20-year history of it in 1999: http://www.johnlisterwriting.com/pdfs/issue42.pdf As it is with English grammar, so it is with wrestling grammar. And to me Kenny Omega is the wrestling equivalent of a writer who habitually uses fancy words when he could use plainer ones. Not only that, Omega is worse, he's sometimes guilty of malapropism, which is when you use a word incorrectly because you don't quite know its meaning.

I don't know if you read my review, but I honestly took the opposite away from this match. I thought Omega just isn't good enough to carry a match like this. Exact words: I guess my biggest questions to you are these: - when you say "fundamentals", what do you mean by that? - when does Omega even do a "basic" spot? I am not at all trying to be a dick when I say this but Omega came across to me as being a guy who doesn't even have a grasp of the fundamentals. Timing, pacing, when to feed, all of that. I thought parts of the match were all over the place. It would be interesting to see your answers to these things. Just want to understand more where you are coming from.

One thing I want to ask, just to play devil's advocate for a second. - Can anyone tell me WITHOUT revisiting the match, just from memory, what happens in the first twenty minutes of Bockwinkel vs. Hennig?

One thing I've said that would instantly help these workers is to sprinkle in some old basic spots into their movesets. Like a basic bodyslam, a basic stomp, etc. They go from big spot to big spot. If you watch 90s AJPW, Kawada knows when to sit in a chinlock sometimes. Kobashi is not above a simple slam or stomp. These guys seem to make every single move something that requires a running start. They never just do a suplex, it's a suplex with a twist, it's a dragon suplex, it's a hurricanrana, it's a tornado DDT. You can't really have escalation if your moveset is literally all finishers.

I seem to recall that WM25 is better than WM26. Looking around and I don't think I've watched them since they happened. If I have I didn't review them.

I only watched the last four matches, reviews here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/31793-jvk-reviews-pimped-matches-from-late-90s-10s/page-25&do=findComment&comment=5781722 Kushida vs. Hiromu Takahashi (1/4/17) ** Hirooki Goto vs. Katsuyori Shibata (1/4/17) ***** Tetsuya Naito vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi (1/4/17) **** Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega (1/4/17) ***3/4 I really loved Goto / Shibata and really took a big dislike to Omega. I am considering downgrading the main, those snowflakes are chiefly for the OMGness of the OMG spots. Going to read this thread with interest now.

I'm thinking about the rating on the main and wondering if it deserves less. I am fairly rare I guess in hating HBK vs Taker, both matches, and I can't remember the rating I gave them but it's less than 3.75. Will have a think, but since Omega is an ersatz HBK and this felt like a homage to those matches complete with tombstone reversals, I'm thinking on principle it should be lower. Searching this thread now to see if I've reviewed either of those matches in the past couple of years.

Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega (1/4/17) Okada takes a leaf out of the Richard O'Brien playbook to start and makes it rain gold leaves. "Start the fans please!" There's no nice way to say this so I'm just going to come right out and say it: these workers just aren't good enough to have the match they were trying to have. They just aren't. There is a vague story running through the first half of Omega targeting the core area of the kidneys / lower back. But it all seems like table dressing for what they are really going for, which is the holy shit dazzle. And we did get some: - dive from top over the guard rails! - double stomp from top onto table - super reverse butterfly suplex (I don't even understand how this was done) - neckbreaker onto the knee (sick) But between these moments these guys don't seem to know what to do to fill the time, it's just spot after spot, and after a while you start to wonder why on earth they are going to random hurricanranas or obvious setup charge the corner spots. It's because they don't know how to fill the time any other way. One of jdw's standard criticisms of Ric Flair is that in his longer matches he has *stuff to do*. But in a way, that criticism is taking for granted the fact that Ric is a world-class wrestler who just knows how to fill that time. It takes someone of that level to go as long as this and keep a match interesting. I honestly don't think either of these guys are on the level of a Terry Taylor, let alone a Ric Flair or a Steamboat or a Jumbo or Funk or Bockwinkel. They just don't seem to have the ring savvy or the gravitas required to pull this off. I mean god, try a stomp, a headlock, a bodyslam, a basic transitional move. Not every single damn thing has to be a tornado DDT or whatever the fuck. I just don't get it. Spots for just no rhyme or reason. It leads to a situation in which it seldom feels like anyone has any real control in the match. So much running, but why? Kenny Omega is literally terrible in parts of this match. They've been going forty + minutes and he just can't get over the war or the struggle or the gravity of anything .... he's so ... fake. I hate to use the word but what else is there? He's worse than Shawn Michaels, he's a guy who has GROWN UP wanting to be Shawn Michaels. It's almost unbearable. I did not enjoy this. Yes, some spots were very cool, but this isn't a classic not by a long shot. It wouldn't make a top 500 of mine. Why? Spotty, lack of coherent storytelling, Okada was completely anonymous and characterless (I suppose in the grand tradition of Chono), and Omega looked like a generic HBK-knock-off indy worker inexplicably elevated to headline the Tokyo Dome. Still, the knees looked good and I'm still wondering how you do a reverse butterfly suplex off the top. ***3/4

Tetsuya Naito vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi (1/4/17) A lot of hair here. So much hair. Girl's hair. If this was a video game you'd have to go to the girl's hair bit on the "make a warrior" to create these guys. For a Japanese chap Naito is remarkable for being such an out and out heel, the spitting was disgusting and an effective way to generate heat ... not just for the crowd but with me. First two thirds of the match is really good with the story being leg vs. leg. That culminates into a kick fest to the legs and everything up to that point in the match is very solid, logically worked, decent character stuff from Naito. The big splash from the top into the knees from Tanahashi was a pretty sick spot. Right onto the knees. What I don't get is how the story didn't at all play into the finish. The match is won with a reverse tornado DDT thing. It's just weird they built all of that and it had nothing to do with the finish. This is solid work here, but I couldn't really get invested in Tanahashi as the face / ace, he just seemed to be there. Maybe this match was all about building Naito, but I wanted to see more from the hero really. Good without being great in my book. ****

So hideous

I want to say Chris Jericho cut the first promo in that manner. "Because at unforgiven ... it's going to be ... hell in a cell!" It literally doesn't matter what the words are or who says them, the cookie cutterness is all we get from it. "Because at No Way Out ... it's going to be ... your last ride!"

One of my real bug bears is how everyone has exactly the same intonation on their promos. Hard to describe but hopefully you know what I mean. It makes my skin crawl. They pause in the same place and emphasise the same word in the same way. "Because at Backlash ... it's going to be ... a night to remember" Or whatever it is. Drives me mad. I'm wondering who the first ever person to cut a promo in that intonation and voice was. Legit the worst thing ever to happen in wrestling.

Hirooki Goto vs. Katsuyori Shibata (1/4/17) Chono sitting at ringside (contender for my least fave wrestler ever). As this match started my girlfriend who was meant to have just gone to bed came in, sat down, and then ended up staying for the whole match. She'd never seen a wrestling match before so started out with all the usual "it's fake isn't it" talk, but that soon died down and she ended up getting really into the match and rooting for Goto. Her exact comment at one point was "the one in the black has been a real shit, I want the other one to come back and get him". By the end she was marking out for near falls. This was a very interesting experience in itself for me, because it's the first time I'd watched a match with a non-fan for years and years. I thought this was a really excellent and fucking brutal match. I loved the sick arm section at the start with Shibata ramping up violence. He was working so stiff and sick, the level of roughness was breathtaking at times. The hope spots from Goto were well timed, and each time Shibata took back control he ramped up the level of violence and dickishness some more. There was also a good level of cock-measuring stuff going on from him, I thought his character work was very effective. Goto down his comeback stretch pulled out a number of pretty incredible spots I've never seen before which generally involved Shibata's neck landing on his knee. Some of those spots were "holy shit" incredible in my book. This match had everything really, sound psychology, great storytelling, really next-level brutality, innovative (groundbreaking?) spots, and a gradual escalation of violence (it boils over when Shibata nails the ref). As good a match as I've ever seen in an NJPW ring. And it won over a non-fan in front of my eyes, which is something. *****

I can't be sure if I've seen Hase vs Hash need to double check. Will rectify if not. Seems very weird to me having Misawa / Williams over Misawa / Kawada. Edit: turns out I have: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/32747-hiroshi-hase/&do=findComment&comment=5717167

Posting these in here, because I'm trying to avoid any and all reviews. Kushida vs. Hiromu Takahashi (1/4/17) Two ridiculous high spots out of the gate. I have never been a fan of high flying style and that's one of the reasons why. Then they hit the mat. I've also never been much of a fan of NJ juniors and this is one of the reasons why. Some bigger bombs now. Swank release German suplex in there. A lot of this stuff looks cool but there is no impact to anything. I mean how can we care about this senton when he did that huge somersault thing right out of the gate? I've very much struggled to follow the structure of this match. Arm hold applied from the dive from the top to the outside was pretty impressive. They've gone into hard kick mode now. Submission sequence. Victory roll gets two. I really could not get into this match at all. Just left me utterly cold. All flash and bluster. I did like some of the wow spots, and appreciated the intensity in the work, but I was never going to like something like this. Just no psychology there. Also Takahashi sauntering off with the belt with a smirk on his face totally buries the idea of this massive war they were meant to have just had. Sorry kids, not for me this one. I did like seeing Liger sitting there. ** My Mrs is about to come back, will finish up the card later on.

I agree that it is an issue if people only cherry pick best matched. It leads to weird scenarios like on the Tag Teams Back Again podcast where Marty Sleaze, a younger fan, had literally never seen a Hercules match or Warlord match before. It is very tough though since there isn't all the time in the world to watch everything. Most of us have lives and interests other than wrestling. To some extent we all have to cherry pick. I always thought Will did a great job on the 80s sets including the extras discs. I remember watching the Dibiase vs JYD feud play out on there, and it's some brilliant storytelling. Likewise, the build to Dibiase vs Duggan multi-stip match is really the thing that earns that its 5-star rating from most people. A brilliant thing on YouTube a while back was how someone had edited the entire Hansen vs Colon feud into one 2-hour package. You see all the angles, and matches and it is a must-watch experience. It is the last time I felt the community here was all together when we ALL reviewed and marked for it. There is a way to watch old stuff without it just being the matches. I remember when we did the Titans specials for Georgia, I edited the footage MYSELF so we could watch whole angles play out. Freebirds vs Dibiase feud all in one package, for example. For the guys who did that show, I think it was a memorable experience for all of us. It's the angles and promos we remember rather than the Uncle Elmer matches. Similar to when we saw Bruno vs. Larry Z feud play out in WWF, or Sgt. Slaughter cobra clutch challenge. I guess what I'm saying is that things can be packaged into storylines or feuds rather than just matches. The 90s yearbooks are quite good at this too.

I have been banging the "more than just the matches" drum as long as I've been here. And it's all the stuff other than the matches which modern wrestling truly sucks at, which I've also said many many times. And that means promos, angles, commentary, Gorilla Monsoon and Bobby Heenan goofing around, Sean Mooney in a cowboy hat, absolutely atrocious skits by WCW (See Motorcity Madman in the pool hall), Memphis BS, Gordon Solie talking about wrestling with such gravity you'd think the world depended on it, the whole lot. But all that stuff is so missing from current product offerings that there is no choice but to focus on the matches.

One thing I wonder about is the way that indie promotions don't really have set rosters, and the whole culture of the one-shot dream match. Is there anything to this? It feels to me like a lot of the indies now have more of a "travelling world warrior" vibe a la Street Fighter 2. Everyone works in different places having dream matches with everyone else. And surely some of this has crept into WWE too? I kinda feel like a lot of super cards happen in a vacuum. It's the ROH culture.

It's interesting though because lots of things I've watched since 2011. AJPW 80s set. All the 90s and 70s AJPW classics. AWA 80s set. Mid-South. And on it goes. I didn't grow up watching that stuff, I grew up watching WWF videos fronted by Sean Mooney. The critical mass argument is an interesting one and I wonder how far that transfers across to something like AJPW? For example, there were times on the 80s set where you'd be watching four or five ****+ matches in a row. And in all that certain things don't stand out as they might in other contexts. One example I can think of is Hansen / DiBiase vs Choshu / Yatsu from 85. If that had happened on a WCW or WWF card it would be a match talked about forever a la Bret vs Mr Perfect from SS91 or something like that. As it is, it's "just another" great match in a sea of it and is much overshadowed by Jumbo / Tenryu vs Choshu / Yatsu, an all-time classic. Maybe the focus on in-ring quality now is such that it's essentially AJPW 80s set conditions all the time?

Without looking it up what were the best matches of 2014 or 2015? Can you rattle them off like we could for 89 or 92 or whatever? Can you do it for 1978? There's a fine line between some sort of universal resonance and nostalgia. We have people on this very board that could absolutely do it for 2006 or whatever, because that's their 1992. That said, part of the issue is that there's so much more of it now. Well, I mean *I* could do 78, I could probably do some 00s years too. But the thing is, loads of stuff I would name isn't stuff I watched when I was a kid, it's stuff I've seen in the past five years. And some stuff resonates *for me*. That Hero tag from evolve 53 which I think is the best US tag match in history and no one else cares about, Roman vs Brock, but I sometimes feel like I'm in a minority when I talk about modern stuff like that. I try to add to my own little pantheon of great matches, but it's weird. Chad tells me he has over 50 matches rated at 4+ for 2016, I wonder though if he'll still be talking about them in a few years.