JerryvonKramer

He's a very good looking young man isn't he.

I think in general people should watch the stuff and share their thoughts if it sounds of interest. I wouldn't want reviews of mine to put people off watching. I think everyone should make their own minds up. Also, PeteF3 came down on Chad's side, so those guys must be right. PeteF3 is the man.

I'll watch it soon. I had to fulfill a debt obligation to Matt D. I am currently watching in stolen moments. I've just moved in with my girlfriend, so I can't openly give wrestling more attention than her ... yet. I will try to sneak some in tonight, Ikeda vs. Ono is top of list.

Making me think I went too low on JBL vs. Eddie: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/31793-jvk-reviews-pimped-matches-from-late-90s-10s/&do=findComment&comment=5695791

I just call it as I see it and to me they seem unpolished. I encourage others to watch the match and give their takes. I like this match-based discussion, even if we aren't agreeing. I will check out that Lee vs. Everett match.

If you are saying EVOLVE has better production than I just don't know what to say. EVOLVE has shitty sound were you can barely hear the ring at points because the commentary is blaring. In addition, I can't see much facials of the crowd because it is usually so dark or in such a dingy arena that it is impossible. I thought this crowd was certainly fine. I pointed out the example of Dustin yawning in my review but he is someone that traveled distance to get to that show so that shows his commitment to the promotion. CWF seem like they have better quality cameras and mics, but do less to mask the venue. I guess I kinda like the murky crowd. Manhattan Centre RAW style.

Yeah, but I guess I wouldn't have thought of Breaks AT ALL if Lee hadn't explicitly been doing Breaks spots.

One thing I'm also interested in re: Lee vs. Skyler is the crowd. Now, this is a high school gym, about as far away as the Tokyo Dome imaginable, but ... they seemed kinda dead. It doesn't help that you can see random dudes in the crowd picking their nose or falling asleep, but generally CWF looks like they might try to mask the high-school gym envonriment a little bit more. I was actually impressed with the presentation and camera work, the general *feel* of the place was fine, but the venue did contribute to this general feeling that something wasn't really happening here. From the Evolve stuff I watched, they seemed to manage small venues a bit better with lighting and so on. You don't need huge crowds, just a way of filming it to make it feel intimate rather than a group of people randomly watching this match in a gym. Would fans of CWF admit this is something they could do better?

Chad, gotta admit, I did an IRL lol at you bringing up 3.5 for Dory vs. Bock at Slamboree. That's more of a unique masestro vs maestro affair, and I'm not sure it would do guys who are 23 years old much good to be compared to two of the all-time greats putting on a greatest hits package in a legends showcase. It's possible it was Skyler pulling that match down more than Lee, but the whole thing felt sloppy as hell. I also couldn't help compare Lee to Jim Breaks when he was doing the limb stuff, and that comparison is only ever going to go one way. I do not want to dick on the guy though, he's young. And possible he has greater performances and matches if he has this rep.

I'm happy to watch more Lee. Based on this match though, I'd have him below practically everyone I've seen from NJPW or Evolve from the past year, save perhaps the juniors (who I never like).

Just out of interest -- Dylan, Chad, whoever else who is high on the Lee / Skyler -- doesn't it bother you at all that the workers are so unpolished? Dare I say it, even green? I mean, is execution so unheralded now that we are just willing to turn a blind eye entirely to workers who clearly are not the finished article? I got a "but you like Dory matches" comment about this review. Dory was a seasoned pro and NWA champion with one of the most secure grasp of fundamentals in wrestling history, are people really asking me to compare him to John Skyler? Serious question. You simply can't compare that CWF match to something like Dory vs. Inoki, or a 70s Jumbo match, it's barely comparable, because those guys were top-of-the-range. Do people really rate these guys? Do you think Vince should be signing them or whatever? They don't look very good to me.

@OJ - I do think that's what people do though. For example, Jimmy Redman's top 10 matches of all time, as of April 2016: 10. John Cena vs Brock Lesnar - WWE Extreme Rules 2012 9. Shawn Michaels vs Undertaker - WWE Wrestlemania 26 8. Triple H vs Undertaker - WWE Wrestlemania 28 (Hell in a Cell) 7. Triple H vs Undertaker - WWE Wrestlemania 27 6. Shawn Michaels vs Undertaker - WWE Wrestlemania 25 5. Trish Stratus vs Lita - WWE Unforgiven 2006 4. Trish Stratus vs Mickie James - WWE Wrestlemania 22 3. John Cena vs Shawn Michaels - WWE Raw 23rd April 2007 2. Team Austin vs Team Bischoff - WWE Survivor Series 2003 1. John Cena vs Umaga - WWE Royal Rumble 2007 (Last Man Standing) My top 10 matches of all time, as of October 2015: 10. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat, 2/20/89 Chi-Town Rumble, JCP/NWA/WCW 9. Mitsuharu Misawa and Kenta Kobashi vs. Akira Taue and Toshiaki Kawada, 12/3/93, AJPW 8. Wargames, 5/17/92 Wrestlewar, JCP/NWA/WCW 7. Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, and Toshiaki Kawada vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue, and Masa Fuchi, 4/20/91, AJPW 6. Jumbo Tsuruta and Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu and Yoshiaki Yatsu, 1/28/86, AJPW 5. Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. The Sheik and Abdullah the Butcher, 9/19/78, AJPW 4. Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada, 6/3/94, AJPW 3. Magnum T.A. vs. Tully Blanchard, 11/28/85 Starrcade I Quit Cage Match, JCP/NWA/WCW 2. Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu, 6/5/89, AJPW 1. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat, 4/2/89 Clash of the Champions VI, JCP/NWA/WCW Since these are our top 10 matches, you can be sure that we think all 10 are "5 star" affairs. There's no two ways around saying that my list reflects my values and Jimmy's reflect her values. There are matches on her top 10 I know for sure that I wouldn't rate 5 stars. It's possible there are matches on mine she wouldn't rate 5 stars. I mean, it used to be the case that people would just have no problem saying "well, it's clear Parv's is the better list", but we live in different times now. If GWE proved nothing else, it proved that.

Jimmy did you see Joe Lanza's post in the WK11 thread? I thought it might be interesting for you to see: What do you make of that?

Trevor Lee vs. John Skyler (9/7/16) This is from CWF Mid-Atlantic. In a high school gym somewhere. Long feeling out process and a lot of stalling to start. Some pretty old school (as in 70s) mat sequences now centred on head lock vs head scissors. Lee targets fingers, shoulders and wrist. Match stops again. There's an awful lot of down time here. Lee goes for the ankle now. This has all been very bitty so far. Lee stamps on the elbow and back on the arm with a chicken wing. Not a double one, not a crossface one. Just a basic chicken wing, huh. Should be happy I guess. Shades of Jim Breaks now as Lee snaps back the wrist but Skyler reapplies the headlock. Several strikes and a spear on the apron by Skyler now. Something about this match doesn't seem like it is happening so far. They go outside, brawl in the crowd a bit. Is the ref going to count or what? Skyler goes for a piledriver outside but it gets reversed ... that spot happened in basically every single Harley Race match I watched. That piledriver never hits, ha ha. Struggling to get into this. Abdominal stretch from Skyler. Octopus by Lee. What is this Inoki cosplay? Lee gets the crossarm breaker on. Skyler manages to escape and stomps. Strike exchange now. Kick to the same arm he's been working all match from Lee. Slingshot spear by Skyler. This has been on the dull side. Double stomp from the top onto the left arm by Lee. Deadlift German for two. That was good. Don't really think Skyler's selling has been up to snuff here. A better wrestler could have sold this arm for all the world. One detail for example, on his comeback moment, he does a shoulder charge with the left shoulder -- that's just dumb, it's the body part Lee has been working all match. These details count. Think of Rick Rude going for the swivel and not being able to do it. Why did he forget about the shoulder? Super kick by Skyler. Goes for something from the top. Lee gets the arm. They tumble off for a near fall. Looked messy to me. Goes outside. This is so sloppy. Come on. Skyler goes to the knee. Uses rope as weapon Slingshot spear and Lee gets STF tucking in the injured arm for the submission. God. At times this was like watching late 60s / early 70s JWA, very slow going. The throughline with the arm work is there but needed a much much better sell job from Skyler who I was very very unimpressed by in general. Timing, execution, all very sloppy. Didn't particularly care for Lee much better, he did some of the Jim Breaks stuff but not that well. Not very good, and very long for what it was. Yes, it had a coherent story but a match needs more than simple coherence to be good. Didn't care for this one bit. **

New for 2017. Episodes will be around 10 minutes. I will host the first few, then others will guest in the hot seat. Shows will drop every Monday. Here's the first one: Top 10 Stiffest Workers https://soundcloud.com/prowrestlingonly/the-monday-top-10-stiffest-workers Discussion of your own picks is encouraged here.

Sometimes, I think it's a commitment thing. Nailing one's colours to the mast. There's a stake to a star rating that isn't there with just the words. The stars are subject to change with repeated viewings, but it's still a bigger gesture than just writing. I think people who don't use star ratings like or take comfort in that greater amibguity. It feels less final, it feels more fluid, or definitive, or whatever. Which is just a personality thing, I think.

Saying a match is five stars is not substantially the same as Dylan saying a match is awesome. That's about as plain as the nose on your face. Are you really trying to tell me that you, Parv, do not place any sort of importance in five star ratings? The Parv that meticulously compiles star rating lists, used them for BIGLAV, once argued that Bob Dylan was the greatest musician to ever live because he had more five star albums than anyone else? I don't wanna start coming across as the Star Ratings Nazi since I hardly ever use the things. My point of view is from the perspective of people who use star ratings as a guide for what to watch. Well what does it really mean to say that a match is five stars or that a Dylan album is five stars? Steamboat vs. Flair is an awesome match, pretty much the best that a wrestling match could be and the absolute pinnacle of its style. (in case of doubt, I mean: Clash 6) I've recorded enough material explaining why I think that, but it's all still shorthand for saying "I think this is one of the best ever things". Some others prefer Chi-Town or Wrestlewar, which are also incredible. It led to a great thread: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/33034-ranking-the-holy-trilogy/ You could do the same thing with Bringing It All Back Home, Highway 61 Revisted, and Blonde on Blonde. I have no idea what the results would be on Expecting Rain, probably it's a thread that has been done loads of times. But the 5 star rating is still a code for saying "this stuff is awesome and the most awesomest of awesomes" You'd be saying exactly the same stuff without the star ratings involved too. I only mentioned Dylan cos he doesn't use star ratings but still bangs the drum for stuff he thinks is "the most awesomest of awesomes". What difference does it really make? Where I -- as a star ratings guy -- get frustrated occassionally is how noncommital and fluid language can be. "This is great" "This is awesome" "This is fantastic" These statements lack the precision of the star rating, so we don't quite know just how "great" or how "awesome" the person thinks it is. I think its more economical to throw out the stars at the end.

I mean, I would rather people read the words rather than the rating. I sometimes see on twitter a comment like "Parv gave it 5 stars". I've never seen "Parv said this match is 'Like snorting pure adrenaline through a straw up your nose.'" It's just the nature of the fandom. We ask each other "where did you go on it?" in the first instance, and then usually there'll be some elaboration on why. I see that conversation all the time. We never ask each other in the first instance "what words did you use to describe it?". Just the way it is.

I don't see why people get so caught up on numbers. "This match is five stars" is substantially the same as Dylan saying "oh man, this was AWESOME, you owe it to yourself to see this Buddy Rose match." Just expressed differently, but it's the same thing. I don't know why people get so caught up over it, just semantics. Numericals attached to value judgements are still only value judgements expressed in a numerical way. I think a category confusion happens because people associate mathematics with abstract truth or something.

I was thinking about this and it seems more daunting because there are obviously lots more matches than workers, but in actuality I think it is a lot more management since in practice it wouldn't really require one to have seen every match ever but simply a good chunk of the highly pimped matches. More to the point, as a community we have had some pretty rigourous ways of sorting said matches and the wider wrestling community also: - DVDR 80s set final rankings - Loss's top 500 of the 90s - Ditch's matches of the 2000s project - Will's old MOTYC sets - ***** and ****3/4 thread - SC "epic" rated matches - Meltzer five star rated matches - WON MOTY winners Through all of that you are also only really talking about absolute cream. There would still be a lot of cream, but I wonder if the number of matches you'd be left with would actually be less than the number of workers who had threads in GWE. Having seen enough matches of 100s of workers to be able to make a list is actually a much more Herculean task than having seen all of the highly rated matches ever.

I'd be really up for. Greatest Match Ever project one day and think it would be a lot more fun than GWE because of the nature of matches. That would be a group-wide version of working out the wrestling equivalent of those Halliwells ratings I was talking about. Which is to say that it doesn't feel like all five star matches are created equal. It would take some real thinking about how it would all work though.

What I really couldn't get behind in that recent match with Kenny Omega is that the guy literally has no *normal* moves, like not one. Imagine it was a video game. You control Ted DiBiase, and the A button makes him do a punch and the B button makes him do a kick. Hold down the A button and it'll make him do an elbow and collar tie up and from there he can do a piledriver, a suplex, or a backbreaker. Throw the guy to the ropes and as he runs back you can do a backdrop or a scoop powerslam. And so on and so forth. With Omega, it's like the A button would make him do a senton with a quarter twist and the B button would make him do a somersault. From the grapple position he can do a perfectplex, a Tombstone or a tornado DDT! He has NO.NORMAL.MOVES.

I had missed this post but was directed back to it after someone mentioned it to me. Quite interesting and useful. I think -- and this is going to be controversial for some -- that some matches are only ***** in the group 2 of group 3 sense and not in the 1 sense. One of my go-to examples would be CM Punk vs John Cena. During GWE, I went and reviewed a lot of John Cena matches with guidance from Jimmy Redman. It was a journey for me confronting one of my deepest prejudices. I literally stopped watching wrestling because of the spinner belt and Cena represented everything I loathed in modern wrestling. A lot of the highly pimped matches I reviewed held up, for example vs. Umaga (*****), vs. Lesnar (*****), but the match against Punk fell flat for me. In fact I winded up on exactly the same rating I did for Okada vs. Omega (***3/4). Sometimes you just "have to be there", and by that I mean in the mental space of having followed the storyline week to week and being emotionally invested in what is going on. I watch modern stuff in exactly the same way as I watch something that happened forty years ago, it makes no difference at all to me. The only difference is that for a lot of old matches the book has already been written and for one that has just happened, we are writing the first few pages. But it surely makes a huge difference whether or not you are following the thing and into it right now (a fan so to speak) or are someone watching it with the same detachment and level of remove as you might watch something from 2000 or 1987 or 1975 ...

Yeah I never got why people rave about that stuff, no interest.