JerryvonKramer

https://np.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/2u73cg/tumblrbashing_why_or_why_not/co5ucsk/ Curative fandom ftw

Without looking it up what were the best matches of 2014 or 2015? Can you rattle them off like we could for 89 or 92 or whatever?

There feels like a difference between people who are from the old school of star ratings, and ... I don't know how else to put it, the twitter people.

Lou Thesz and co looked down on Ric Flair and co. For me these days the problem more than anything else is transience. When I was growing up, I read about fans talking up Flair vs Steamboat, and older fans talked up Dory vs Brisco or other legendary feuds. Things that happened when I was younger seem to have retained their significance. I was struck when I was reminiscing with Allan and Chris Hero a few weeks back, both Allan and my minds went back to Bret Hart tapping the belt on his shoulder in the build to Wrestlemania 9. Now Mania 9 wasn't even a good mania and and Bret vs Yoko wasn't a particularly great match but the importance still seemed to etch itself in our 11-year old minds. I do wonder if stuff these days retains that sort of significance. Will people still talk about the great matches from April 2016 in the same way we still look back on 1989 or 1992 now? For some reason, it doesn't seem the same. It's all transient. I do not know though if it's just cos I'm older or if it's something to do with the product.

They definitely did.

Yes

Aims: - finish 80s sets (lol), including PR and Portland - watch all the pimped Evolve matches to date - watch all pimped Chris Hero - follow the new World of Sport - get to Hogan arriving in WCW on WTBBP - wrap up Titans

Well I mean reading the reviews you guys helped me see some more of the positives; four stars is pretty high praise. I dug early part of the match more, and I guess focusing on the character stuff I was willing to forgive some of the inconsistencies a bit more. It's not an exact science. That puts it on par with something like Dory vs. Horst Hoffman from '75 or Midnights vs Rock n Rolls (5/23/84). I don't give 4.25 as a rating so 4.5 is very high and 4.75 is top 100 territory.

So Lord James Blears was the PWF President, later it was Hansen, then Hase, then Kobashi, and I believe these days it is Dory. But what I don't get is ... if AJPW was part of the NWA, weren't the NWA their official sanctioning body as per the other territories? Why this additional layer of bureaucracy? On top of that at various times you have a President of AJPW too.

Bumping this not only for people to read the tremendous knowledge drop from jdw making some excellent posts, but also because I'm wondering who or what was "the PWF"?

I've never done this before but after reading OJ, Elliott, Matt D, Exposer and dawho5, with several calling this one of the all-time greatest performances from Satanico, I felt compelled to re-review this trying to keep all their observations in mind. Lucha 3.3 Gran Cochise vs. Satanico (9/14/84) I noticed some more of the character elements here, especially Satanico's subtle heeling in the first two falls and Cochise working rougher in the third. The match actually felt faster than the first time I watched it, they keep things moving a fair bit. I also appreciated the fluidity of the counter exchanges a bit more. Satanico's selling in the third fall *is* really good, I mean he does make those holds look very painful and the selling is as good as a Jack Brisco or Rick Martel. I was also able to see elements of "the chess match" in the third fall a bit more. It's enough for me to want to bump the rating up, but sadly I'm still not seeing an all-time match or performance. I wish I could see it but I can't. ****

I've been reading around and have been legit shocked to learn that this is almost like a Steamboat vs Flair or Dory vs Brisco of lucha. Not just a five star match but a "match of ages". I had no idea, but that should not change anything in my review which were my honest impressions. I just wanted to note that I wasn't being deliberately iconoclastic or anything like that. I might watch it again given some of the other reviews I've read now, including OJ's. Just to see if I might see what they can.

Going to try watching with minimal notes to see if it helps. Lucha 3.2 El Satanico y Espectro Jr. v. El Faraon y La Fiera (8/12/84) Somewhat compromised by VQ and clipping so found this very hard to follow. Can't rate. Lucha 3.3 Gran Cochise vs. Satanico (9/14/84) There's a title on the line that looks like Hogan's 85 title with the flags around the belt. A sleep-inducing mat-based affair in the first fall gives way to some intrigue as Satanico works the left arm which plays through the finish into the second fall. Sound psychology without being that fun to watch. Cochise manages to injure Satanico's arm with an elbow and so he has a section working the arm too now. I thought this second fall was very poor, arm work went nowhere, counter exchanges looked silly worked at a very sloppy pace and the small package three-count came out of nowhere. By the third fall the arm stuff seems a distant memory as both guys liberally do power spots with their injured arms. Cochise even applies an arm hold on the wrong arm at one point, not even any pretence of continuity. They sell exhaustion over the next few near falls so things become lethargic just when I'd want an escalation of violence. A dynamic emerges in which Cochise can't put Satanico away, and his escapes become increasingly desperate and the crowd seems to get behind him. I did not think this was very good. The best section was towards the end of the first fall and into the second during which Satanico executed a game plan on Cochise's left arm, but the match fell apart a bit after this point. I'm not sure they'd done enough to earn the exhaustion in the third fall, and I'm not sure that they'd told the story well enough to establish Cochise 's apparent dominance which made Satanico an underdog for the crowd in the third fall. There was no continuity in the story of the match or in the long-term selling, which was non-existent. Execution was sloppy throughout. Some of the quick counter exchanges looked good but they weren't enough to save this one. ***

Chief Jay Strongbow vs Don Kent (Detroit, Fall 1975, Shark Cage Match)

Well, have it at. What are you waiting for? Talk about cultural imperialism. I really don't get this. My positions in this thread have been: 1. People who aren't into lucha have come to the conclusion that it sucks / is not for them (phrase it how you want), for whatever reason. 2. The reason it didn't have prominence historically, was probably a combination of Mil Mascaras wanting to keep himself special by keeping other luchadores off cards, and the LaBelle LA territory going under and then being bought out by Vince by 1983 severing the key link between US wrestling and lucha. I noted that Southern territories had Mexican workers who were not luchadores. And on the flipside Japanese promoters having strong ties with the NWA and post-WW2 Japanese heels being a thing in the US, kept the association between Japan and Wrestling precident in the minds of fans. All of these things rather than cultural imperialism seem to explain it to me. 3. We are better off talking about matches and challenging old narratives through the assessment of matches than in having these conversations about workers or styles. I think the board is at its best when it has done this. I do believe that these theoretical discussions get us to the point of being "utter wank". You haven't really wanted to engage on these fronts. You've wanted to go over GWE, you've wanted to accuse me of being a conservative and anti-intellectual, you've wanted to talk about canon and whatever else. These have all been your harping points. If people seriously believe I'm the problem, rather than you, it is time to remove myself from this community entirely.

The key question about coverage remains this one: Most people from most places are concerned with stuff at home first and stuff abroad second. USA has a reputation around the world for being particularly insular in this regard. So why would anyone expect fans from that country to give equal weight to wrestling from another place? I think it should be celebrated that fans have watched puro or lucha AT ALL. That in itself is a remarkable thing. The relative weighting matters less than the fact that there are so many fans who have crossed international borders to watch. That in itself challenges stereotypes about Americans not caring about anyone but themselves. Of course, I'm from a country that tends to think of itself first and everyone else second too. I've tended to think of wrestling as "an American thing" and historically felt I could view it from an ironic distance. But as I've learned about British traditions of wrestling through some of the wonderful sites out there, Regal shoots, and people pimping old WOS here, I've come to want a more homegrown product on a national level, and have high hopes of the ITV WOS revamp being something big and sustained rather than a one off. I imagine this is of greater interest to British fans than it is to people who live elsewhere. Hardcore connessiuers and enthusiasts from USA and will be interested, but most people won't be. I don't see that as a great issue. I still don't see why coverage and weighting is an issue to anyone. It's almost like complaining that French art house films don't get the same coverage as the latest blockbuster out of Hollywood. I mean, for one, they are speaking French and for two, the audience for serious chin stroking films is niche. I just don't know what planet you are living on if you expect the nature of these things to change. An American publication is going to gravitate towards American concerns in whatever field. You should celebrate how remarkable the wrestling community has been in looking beyond the horizons of the border. Nope. Anyone who thinks the problem with this thread has been that we didn't talk about this enough is sorely mistaken.

You learned to love Dory. You set out to watch all the great AJPW. How is this any different? I watched the stuff and felt compelled for whatever reason to continue rather than being put off. Dory was part of my wider project to deep dive into the 70s, I also looked at Jack Brisco, Harley Race, Giant Baba, The Destroyer, and others. Through it all, I gained a love of 70s AJPW and of the old NWA style. Plenty of people dismiss that. It's longer form, it's slower in parts. I get "Dory is boring" jokes as par for the course. I don't really mind. I think the high end stuff speaks for itself, and all my reviews are there if anyone else wants to check that stuff out for themselves. People kinda roll their eyes when I point them towards a 45-minute tag from 1977 ... something like Funks vs. Jumbo / Baba. Masterpiece of the style, textbook excellent wrestling in my view. Some people would rather watch five-minute Earthquake matches or the latest RAW. I get that, it's all cool. During GWE, people were flat out saying stuff like Jumbo sucks, I cared because I thought it was important that someone with a career like that got his due. He fell from #1 in 2006 to #11 in 2016, which suggests that en masse people valued 70s AJPW less than they did ten years ago. I was against that because I didn't think GWE should be less a reflection of values and more a reflection of who had the greatest career with the most great matches in it. Now GWE is over it doesn't matter, there are no stakes. I don't care in the slightest who does and doesn't watch 70s AJPW. If you find Jumbo boring, cool. If you think he sucks, fine. It doesn't matter. And that's what I've been telling you since the start of this thread. It doesn't matter if I think lucha sucks or if you think 70s AJPW sucks. I'm not gonna try to make you watch Dory matches to try to change your mind. I encourage people to discuss matches and review them.

This feels like much more hard work to me than my other experiences as a wrestling fan.

Capital Truth - found it:

I like this. The conversation appears to be spinning its wheels here. I am sure this is available somewhere here, but can I ask where you have a few matches that I am pretty sure you have seen and reviewed? Chicana vs MS-1 - 9/23/1983 Satanico vs Cochise - 9/14/1984 Santo vs Espanto Jr - 8/31/1986 Dandy vs Azteca - 6/1/1990 Dandy vs Satanico - 12/14/1990 Santo vs Casas vs Dandy - 12/6/1996 Atlantis vs Vilano III - 3/17/2000 Trauma I vs Lupus - 9/4/1016 Not to pry for full reviews of them all, but I am curious as to where you have them. Those are all matches I have at *****. They aren't the only lucha matches I have there, but they are matches I think are fantastic and are sure fire classics. I just went and had a look through all my lucha ratings (reviews mainly in 80s catch-up or microscope threads). Picked out notables:MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana (9/23/83) ***** Atlantis y El Hijo del Santo vs. Fuerza Guerrera y Lobo Rubio (11/25/83) ****4/3 Atlantis vs. El Satanico (1984) **** Mocho Cota vs. Americo Rocca (1/27/84) ****4/3 Mocho Cota vs. Americo Rocca (2/3/84) **** Atlantis y Lizmark vs. El Egipcio y El Faraon (2/17/84) **** El Faraon, Herodes y Mocho Cota vs. Lizmark, Ringo Mendoza y Tony Salazar (2/24/84) ****4/3 El Dandy vs. Angel Azteca (6/1/90) **1/2 El Dandy vs. Satanico (12/14/90) **** El Dandy vs. Negro Casas (7/3/92) ***** Negro Casas vs. La Fiera (1/10/93) **** Negro Casas vs. Mocho Cota (9/23/94) ****3/4 How can you say a style mostly sucks and give that many four star ratings? It doesn't make any sense. I can tell you Backlund era WWF mostly sucks too but could also provide a list of four+ star matches from the stuff I've seen. Why doesn't 70s/early 80s WWF get more attention? It's the same answer. A style can't be judged only by its best stuff, you have to look at the average and not very good stuff too. Average JCP or average AJPW feel better to me than average AWA, average WWF, or average lucha. I lack the knowledge to be able to differentiate between CMLL and AAA. I can distinguish between technical matches (title), brawls (hair / mask), trios, and tags. I don't like the mat-work style, dive trains, or the 2/3 fall structure in the brawls, all these are reasons why I watch Lucha less than other styles.

I like this. The conversation appears to be spinning its wheels here. I am sure this is available somewhere here, but can I ask where you have a few matches that I am pretty sure you have seen and reviewed? Chicana vs MS-1 - 9/23/1983 Satanico vs Cochise - 9/14/1984 Santo vs Espanto Jr - 8/31/1986 Dandy vs Azteca - 6/1/1990 Dandy vs Satanico - 12/14/1990 Santo vs Casas vs Dandy - 12/6/1996 Atlantis vs Vilano III - 3/17/2000 Trauma I vs Lupus - 9/4/1016 Not to pry for full reviews of them all, but I am curious as to where you have them. Those are all matches I have at *****. They aren't the only lucha matches I have there, but they are matches I think are fantastic and are sure fire classics. I just went and had a look through all my lucha ratings (reviews mainly in 80s catch-up or microscope threads). Picked out notables: MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana (9/23/83) ***** Atlantis y El Hijo del Santo vs. Fuerza Guerrera y Lobo Rubio (11/25/83) ****4/3 Atlantis vs. El Satanico (1984) **** Mocho Cota vs. Americo Rocca (1/27/84) ****4/3 Mocho Cota vs. Americo Rocca (2/3/84) **** Atlantis y Lizmark vs. El Egipcio y El Faraon (2/17/84) **** El Faraon, Herodes y Mocho Cota vs. Lizmark, Ringo Mendoza y Tony Salazar (2/24/84) ****4/3 El Dandy vs. Angel Azteca (6/1/90) **1/2 El Dandy vs. Satanico (12/14/90) **** El Dandy vs. Negro Casas (7/3/92) ***** Negro Casas vs. La Fiera (1/10/93) **** Negro Casas vs. Mocho Cota (9/23/94) ****3/4

This is one of the things that I find really regrettable about GWE, and the sorts of lines it created. So some people look at someone like me now and think I'm this fuddy duddy conservative upholder of cannon because I think Flair, Jumbo or Misawa are all-time greats. Whereas on the level of matches I've very much been part of a conversation reassessing standard takes inherited from Meltzer or jdw. I feel like that revisionism has a lot more value than in questioning the greatness of workers. It's back to the matches vs workers debate. But that's the sort of thing I'd hope Lucha fans would be more invested in. Less who is or isn't into lucha and more debate on what are the great matches and why. Like I have Casas vs Mocha from 94 (*I think*) 4.75. I'm much more interested in the conversation about if that really is a near-classic than in the conversation about whether lucha is any good or the topic of this thread.

Three questions: 1. Does anyone have any idea of how much Mexican fans in Mexico care about or watch US wrestling? Same for Japanese fans in Japan. 2. Does it matter? 3. To what extent do you expect people of a country to be concerned primarily with themselves vs those who live abroad?

First quarter of 2016 was wrapped up with GWE, something I continue to have mixed feelings about. The rest of the year has largely consisted in getting over it. For me that meant trying to enjoy modern stuff whenever life would give me a chance to watch it, and reconnecting with the things that made me a fan in the first place (which has really been the topic of Letters From Kayfabe). 2016 was a really busy year for me both in work and personally (I've just moved home this past week). Wrestling has had to complete with music and politics in what little spare time I've had. I watched Evolve 53 a few months ago and haven't had the chance to watch the next show since... life gets in the way. I have a long sabbatical coming up in which I hope to have the time and space to start watching footage again. I want to finish the 80s sets (including lucha), I want to go through Loss's 90s list, I want to watch Chris Hero matches ... There's a lot I want to do. I hope in 2017 things will be more chill, that people come together, that divisions are mended, that time will heal, that community is celebrated... both in our little bubble and out there in the big wide world.

i'll take this over yet another guy who gets obnoxiously indignant over defending his boring-ass canonical takes Can I just ask why is it the worst sin in the world to call someone a hipster or contrarian but this sort of thing is totally fine? Isn't that not only a double standard but also a built in proof of my oft-derided claim that some people see themselves as challenging established narratives?