JerryvonKramer

Where will he finish for you Pete? Ballpark.

Quick note that Larry Latham wasn't in the original version of the Moondogs in WWF until mid-1981. At first it was Moondog King (Ed White aka Sailor White) and Moondog Rex (Randy Colley). King had a dodgy past and (being Canadian) was denied re-entry by US border control just after they won the titles against Garea and Martel. Latham would be the one to replace him as Moondog Spot. We're right at that point in our current Titans watching and pretty much all agree that White is a much better worker than Colley.

Does this mean I can get special dispensation to ignore the 00s indie scene completely for the purposes of the Greatest Wrestler Ever project?

Actually I've called 1980 MSG crowds "idiots" on many occasions. I have no problem criticizing crowds from different eras. None at all.

On a slightly different note, how often would the PWF Chairman be there? In All Japan's history, there have only been four: Lord James Blears (I think from the start to ... 2000??) Stan Hansen (2000-??) Hase (???-2013) Dory Funk Jr (2013- present) Are they present for every single title bout or just at the biggest shows? What's the deal with the PWF chairman?

This isn't much better though is it? It's creepy. Why are the crowd sucking up to the wrestlers? Wet. Why not bust out the "We are not worthy" chant too? I do agree with Loss though that the workers and promoters should be stronger in working whatever style they want and stop pandering to these crowds. It's a vicious cycle that ends up making workers actively worse.

Joe did hit on something which was that IF fans were a bit more discerning with when they do those chants, it wouldn't be quite so risible and annoying. I went to those two indie shows last year, one in Stevenage "Southside Wrestling" and the other in London at York Hall in Bethnal Green to see Liger, among others, for Revolution Pro. The key difference between these two shows were the crowds. The Stevenage crowd had a lot of kids there, and families. The heels played up their villainy for boos, the faces were cheered. And this was just *so much fun*. I thought to myself, "well, if this was local, I could come to this every single week no problem". Having a crowd like that made the basic psychology of the work in the ring very solid. I was impressed with that show. The London show had a much more "hardcore indie" crowd. They were busting out "This is Awesome" chants left, right and centre. They were driving me up the fucking wall with it. And it had a really adverse effect on the work in the ring, which was -- on the whole -- much spottier and lacking in basic psychology. Some guys were on both cards, and they all seemed better on the Southside one. Seems to me the dickhead crowd were entirely to blame. They were just *waiting* to get their shit in. "Holy shit!" "This is awesome" and all the rest of it. There was a guy from this board who went with me who would be able to attest my utter disdain for that crowd. They were ENCOURAGING bad work actively. It's one thing being a "smart" crowd, it's another to be a "smart" crowd that only seems to want to see cool spots. It's philistine chanting of the worst order. You can say what you want about old southern crowds, at least they understood good wrestling when they saw it. If I could have my way, I'd literally ban crowds like that -- I reckon they've done as much damage to the business as Russo or Bischoff. I'd sooner have the old-school Japanese business guys in their suits on those 6pm shows in the 70s clapping politely than a crowd like that. Interestingly, when I went to see Hogan at that TNA show, I did witness a *third* type of crowd at Wembley arena. That was your "soccer" style crowd who were going to chant and sing songs, and have their own fun, virtually regardless of what was going on in the ring. I had no idea who were faces or heels at that show, other than Hogan who was massively cheered, but THAT crowd was really good in its own way too. But yeah, I don't really care if I hurt anyone's sensibilities, I flat out hate the style of indie crowd I witnessed at that Bethnal Green show and think they actively ruin wrestling. I'd prefer them to spend their money at home on their New Japan iPPV or whatever.

I think the problem with it for me is that the tone is basically this ... I'm generally not keen on that as a fan reaction. I think WWE did pretty well at channeling that general sycophantic douchery into making Bryan a proper babyface battling proper villains.

Twatty and annoying. Ditto. Just boo the heels and cheer the faces like a proper wrestling crowd for god's sake. "Thank you Kenta" = worst moment in wrestling history.

Wahoo is a guy whose name I find it hard to ignore on a lot of the old 70s and early 80s footage I'm trawling through for other purposes. There are lots of his matches buried on old Maple Leaf Garden shows, and places like Southwest or even in the middle of Mid-Atlantic shows that aren't that easy to find just on Youtube. Wahoo is probably going to be a guy that I take a comprehensive look at down the line. I am predisposed to like him a lot: his chops are among the stiffest ever, he was a real asskicker who knew how to work. And here's the best thing at all: he wasn't Chief Jay Strongbow.

My impression after reading over that OJ is that the Southwest stuff is alright but it's not really addind a great deal to his resume. That sound right to you? I do remember reading about a great blood feud between Tully and Terry Funk but sadly it looks like it's not on tape, we have the TV before and after but those weeks are missing. I did watch some Southwest tracking Dory, and do like the general feel of that promotion, complete with it's awful but also compeltely hilarious commentator. The reason I bring this up is because I do think Tully is hurt by a lack of longevity. We only really have 4 peak years, so anything and everything from Southwest will help to put him higher on the list. If there isn't a great deal there, there's a natural limit on how high he can go. He'd be comparable to someone like Yatsu who is in a lot of high-end stuff in a short space of time, even though gut instinct says that Tully goes higher than Yatsu.

How much pre-Crockett Tully have people seen? Is there anything out there worth seeking out?

By the way, here's the weird thing about that match. They mention on the tape that it's signed for October 16th ... but according to Clawmaster's record books, Dory was not in Puerto Rico at all that month in 1983: Wednesday, October 12, 1983 – Memorial Auditorium – Spartanburg, SC 1) Ric Flair & Roddy Piper (sub. Wahoo McDaniel) & Mark Youngblood defeated Dory Funk, Jr. & Dick Slater & Mark Lewin (w/ Gary Hart) This was a television taping with eight more matches advertised including Baron Von Raschke, Greg Valentine, Bugsy McGraw, Charlie Brown, Chavo Guerrero, Bob Orton, Jr., Kevin Sullivan and The Assassins. Thursday, October 13, 1983 - unknown arena - Orange, VA 1) Kevin Sullivan defeated Vinnie Valentino 2) Mark Lewin defeated Steve Muslim 3) Chavo Guerrero defeated The Ninja 4) Charlie Brown & Johnny Weaver defeated Bob Orton, Jr. & Baron Von Raschke via DQ 5) Ric Flair defeated Dory Funk, Jr. Saturday, October 15, 1983 - Civic Center - Roanoke, VA 1) Gene Anderson defeated Keith Larsen 2) Scott McGhee defeated Kelly Kiniski 3) The Assassins defeated Bugsy McGraw & Brickhouse Brown 4) Dick Slater defeated Dory Funk, Jr. 5) Charlie Brown & Mark Youngblood defeated Baron Von Raschke & Gary Hart Sunday, October 16, 1983 - Coliseum - Greensboro, NC 1) Dory Funk, Jr. & Bugsy McGraw & Mark Youngblood defeated Paul Jones & The Assassins 2) Scott McGhee defeated The Magic Dragon 3) Terry Gibbs defeated Tom Lintz 4) Gene Anderson defeated Keith Larsen 5) Jack Brisco & Jerry Brisco vs. Ricky Steamboat & Jay Youngblood 6) Wahoo McDaniel defeated Dick Slater via DQ 7) Baron Von Raschke vs. Charlie Brown 8) Steel Cage Match: Ric Flair defeated Bob Orton, Jr. Sunday, October 16, 1983 - unknown arena - Fayetteville, NC 1) Vinnie Valentino defeated The Ninja 2) Kevin Sullivan & Mark Lewin defeated Scott McGhee & John Bonello 3) Dory Funk, Jr. defeated Chavo Guerrero 4) Charlie Brown defeated Baron Von Raschke 5) Ric Flair & Wahoo McDaniel defeated Bob Orton, Jr. & Dick Slater Thursday, October 20, 1983 - Sumter County Exhibition Center - Sumter, SC 1) Vinnie Valentino defeated Tim Gerrard 2) Gary Royal defeated Ric McCord 3) Chavo Guerrero defeated The Ninja 4) Kevin Sullivan defeated Keith Larsen 5) Mid-Atlantic Heavyweight Champion Rufus R. Jones defeated Dory Funk, Jr. 6) Tag Team Champions Ricky Steamboat & Jay Youngblood defeated Jack Brisco & Jerry Brisco Is the video wrongly dated? Dory was booking Crockett in 83, so makes sense that he was around Mid-Atlantic. I can't find any Dory vs. Invader matches listed until back in 1980. There's this: Friday, October 17, 1980 - Juan Pachín Vicéns Auditorium - Ponce, PR 1) El Gran Apollo vs. Luke Graham 2) Big Red vs. Toru Tanaka 3) Dory Funk, Jr. vs. Invader #1 4) Invader #2 vs. Pierre Martel 5) Gama Singh & The Destroyer vs. Johnny Rivera & José Miguel Pérez 6) Dutch Mantell & Danny Condrey vs. Mighty Igor & Jay Strongbow Or did the match happen a lot later? Not a particularly big deal, just trying to do a rough timeline for the Funks and can't make head nor tail of this clip of Dory in PR in 1983. Surely it can't be 83?

Cheers, goc, depends on how long the clip is I guess.

[hype] we're doing a show on five WoS matches this weekend. However, my real reason for posting here: OJ, on Cornette's show, Adrian Street put over a guy called George Kidd as "the greatest technical wrestler ever to lace up a pair of boots". Have you seen him or heard of him?

Pretty excited to see those pre-Crockett Garvin matches. I've also not seen the 86 Flair cage match. Garvin might end up top 40 or even higher for me when all is said and done.

There is LA stuff from Olympic shows from 82-3, look complete to me. There are also Chavo matches on the South West TV footage that's out there and buried here and there on TV from all over the place . I've seen his name come up in all sorts of random stuff but it's piecemeal and buried on obscure comps. There is a match from 85 vs DiBiase that took place in San Antonio for All Star that is a holy grail of mine because it does exist on tape and some people speak highly of it. Chavo has been a bit hit and miss for me after impressing in that match vs Mr. Olympia in Mid South. Sometimes he's great, sometimes not.

Anyone know if this match actually took place? I can't find any record of it. That "Texas Death Match" sign is hilariously shoddy.

The Hangman would have got it.

I was just kidding Pete! lol

Seems to me like Ross has gotten a whole lot better while Austin has really gone off the boil in the past couple of months.

See when you give me a list of elite guys like that and he's only got one **** star match out of it, something tells me the problem is him. Sam Houston has better matches with Flair!