JerryvonKramer

5. Edge Edge might struggle to get into the WON Hall of Fame, but in the Wrestling Chin HoF he's a slam dunk. However, as with so many aspects of Edge, it's a bit overrated. I mean, it's not THAT big. He's not really in contention for #1. 4. Jay Leno His wrestling career might have been short-lived, but Leno's ample chin played a significant role in the storytelling of that match at Road Wild 98. The way Leno works his chin into the body of the match demonstrated greater psychology than we've ever seen from Edge's chin. 3. The Great Khali A magnificent specimen. Khali's chin is defined by its manliness. 2. Sgt. Slaughter Absolutely intimidating. Slaughter's chin probably could have won the 91 Gulf on its own if it wasn't for the power of Hulkamania. 1. Antonio Inoki Jesus Christ, "Look at it Tony!!!!!!!" Here you can see it in all its humbling glory, Ali does his best to poke his chin out but he just can't compete with that.

For me it was when Pat Patterson won it in Rio. Before that it was a really important main event title defended all around Brazil and Argentina. Titanes En El Ring was built around the IC title in the 1960s. Martín Karadagián is probably the greatest IC champion of all time. The belt lost all credibility when it found its way to New York.

Neither am I, I was thinking specifically about the times he held up Vince. I do hold stuff like that against workers. I don't like Sid being a pain in the ass about doing a job on the way out of WCW, I don't like Brody holding up the NWA title by going into business for himself, and I don't like Warrior holding up Vince at Summerslam 91. Some smart arse will bring up Flair not putting over Luger in 91, but the answer to that is, "but yeah, Flair was also the greatest wrestler of all time who'd been world champ for a decade" whereas Sid, Brody and Warrior were guys who'd been in the business five minutes who thought they were the dog's bollocks.

Total legend. Get him in the hall of fame! “My name is Rufus R. Jones, and the ‘R’ stands for ‘guts.'” ha ha ha awesome!

Actually really interested in this. I have to say his number of title shots even into the 80s was pretty striking to me. I should also note that he had a run with the Mid-Atlantic title as late as 1983 defeating none other than Dory Funk Jr! Probably Dory's first clean job since 1973. And yes, he was off to Japan the following week.

I don't know Will, can I trust you anymore? It's going to be like Windham vs. Luger GAB 91, crowd is chanting "WE WANT LOSS" and then jdw walks out as your new manager.

It would be a great punch too!

You've taken us over the page Dylan. Hope that doesn't mean people will miss my previous post, because it took quite a while to put together. If there is McGuirk data missing, then surely that would mean Murdoch probably had more than 41 shots given that he worked there regularly. I went through every single result in that list from 1969 to 1990 looking for the three guys. I have to say, and this isn't me trying to knock Murdoch, that it doesn't tell us THAT much about him other than that he was the guy they were putting against the champ when he came into town -- at least in the Florida and Amarillo loops. The reason that Murdoch has so many, if you look, is because the champ would come into the territory and then they'd take that match on the road around the regular local loop. So every time the NWA champ goes to West Texas, that's +3 or even +5 onto Murdoch's tally. The reason I'm not sure how much it tells us is because some of the other names that recurred with real regularity weren't exactly stellar. Rufus R. Jones must have had about 60 title shots from the 60s to the 80s. Is Rufus R. Jones a HoFer because of that? Dick Slater is another name that came up a lot. The more "meaningful" title shots are in St. Louis -- because they were always bringing top names in -- and then later in JCP when the territories were winding down. Which to his credit, Murdoch has a bunch of too. On face value it seems to add a lot to Murdoch's case, but I'm not sure it does. Because of the way the NWA title was booked, a title shot doesn't mean what repeat title shots vs. Bruno at MSG meant. Why? Because all it really means is "this is the top guy we had in the area at the time who we could put up to lose against the champ". Again, not trying to run Murdoch down, but trying to contextualise what this data actually means.

Jack Brisco vs The Gestapo (1978) This is in Florida. The Gestapo is Rip Oliver under a hood. As this match starts Brisco evades an attempt to grab him by The Gestapo and stays behind him with a waistlock and then a leghold. Brisco is excellent at this amatuer-style stuff. Droptoe hold by Brisco brings Gestapo down after some rope running. Gestapo gets some time on top now and Brisco sells for him pretty wildly. But this is a pretty quick win for Jack. Brisco is lightning quick in his counters. And in this match shows that he is more than willing to sell against much lower opposition. Jack Brisco and Bob Roop vs. Bobby Shane and Bearcat Wright (1972??) This is either from Tampa or St. Petersberg, 72 at the earliest, 74 at the latest because that's when Wright retired. I have a suspicion I've seen this match before, see here and his is mislabelled with it acually being Raul Mata tagging with Brisco, which would make the date 3/9/72. Looking closely, the partner is definitely Bob Roop because he has Bob Roop's face. Going to give traders the benefit of the doubt and assume the two matches are different. Roop is certainly as fat Raul Mata was. Brisco maybe liked to make himself look leaner by tagging with chunkier guys. Well, this is definitely the same match as the other one cos Wright and Shane win the Florida tag titles and the finish is identical. Looks like whoever compiled the original Florida footage mistook Bob Roop for Mata. I apologise for making the "Raul FAT-ter" joke back in July. Jack Brisco vs. Austin Idol (07/06/79) I've seen this listed as 3/29/80, but it's almost certainly the June 79 match from the stadium show in Dothan, Alabama. This starts with a talking head providing analysis in the top left corner. I'm not sure who it is. I'm also not sure what promotion this is from. It's for the South Eastern Heavyweight title with Idol coming in as champ. And that means I'm guessing the TV is from Fuller's South Eastern Championship Wrestling (SECW) promotion. Holy obscurity Batman. I'd love to know who the the guy talking might be. He seems to be scoping out Idol for an upcoming bout. I'm about 70% sure that it's Steve Keirn based mainly on his face, but this guy has dark not blonde hair, but 1. Keirn did work in SECW around this time, 2. He mentions that he had several title shots with Brisco in Florida and faced his bother a few times too, and 3. He probably dyed his hair blonde after this when he started with the Fabulous Ones. So I'm saying it's Keirn, but if anyone could verify I'd be grateful. Idol does a lot of heelish stuff to start including begging off and bailing. A HUGE headlock by Brisco now where he wrenches the headlock up and down like a maniac. It actually looked a bit ridiculous he was wrenching up and down so hard on it. Bob Backlund eat your heart out, that's the sort of headlock you could only dream of! Big hiptoss by Brisco. Idol begs off again. Idol tries to come back and there's lots of motion but Brisco goes to the headlock takeover to stop the momentum. "Keirn" says that he ranks the Briscos as being just a shade below the Anderson brothers in terms of "best brother teams" in wrestling. What about the Funks then "Steve"? Idol is all schtick and stalling here. He does a thrust to Brisco's throat which looked both cheap and effective. Bodyslam. Knee drop. Unusual execution on these moves from Idol. Brisco hits on Idol's legs to try to comeback but Idol goes to a reverse chinlock to maintain control. Idol works on the leg with a variety of moves including the spinning toehold to set up the figure-four. But Brisco kicks him outside the ring and then brings him back in with a back suplex, but Idol seems to land on top of him and gets the three count to win. Yet another pinfall loss for Jack, yet another labelling mishap from my trader who says "18 mins of match shown but no end/Great Match!" in the listing. He's not correct on both counts. First, this isn't a great match. Second, we saw the end! I thought this was a real clash and mismatch of styles. Idol was doing a lot of Memphis-y stuff, Brisco would trying to work a no-nonsense straight matchup. It did settle into being a fairly decent match, the action was good, Idol's psychology in focusing on the leg was decent, but I wouldn't call this "great". That said, Brisco continues to impress. He's a great offensive wrestler and a great denfensive wrestler who can sell and bump. Complete worker pretty much. *** And that's the end of this disc. EDIT: It's also possible that "Steve Keirn" was Hot Stuff Eddie Gilbert.

Not a single hope in hell and I'm even actively opposed to others including him on their top 100s. Terrible wrestler, terrible promo, terrible person. Probably in my bottom 5 wrestlers behind Chief Jay Strongbow and Road Warrior Hawk. Hated him as a kid, hate him even more as an adult. His death changed nothing about how I feel about him.

The control centre with all the screens and tape machines was Mooney's domain. He ruled that area on so many CHV releases that I could probably try to make a WON HoF case for it. This has really made my day.

Jim Crockett Sr is a very interesting figure to me. He seems like he was a little outside of the NWA Mafia that ruled the 50s and 60s, and by all accounts promoted stuff other than wrestling in the region. I don't really imagine him fraternising much with Sam Muchnick, Eddie Graham, Bob Giegel and so on. Just seems like he was more of a local big name in the Carolinas, rather than a wrestling guy. People say that prior to George Scott, Mid-Atlantic was thought of as a tag promotion, but it seems like with the switch to singles matches on top, MACW became a more important territory and seemingly a bigger payday for stars. I am curious to know more about Crockett Sr. The JCP Good Old Days doc just eulogised him in a sentimental and non-specific way. To what extent are my generalisations fair?

I can confirm that that 69 Dory match was not a title shot. There is an incredibly full NWA title listing on Wrestlingdata.com, find here: http://wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=titles&kategorie=8&liga=16&aufgabe=matches&titel=144 1969 is about 93 pages in, where the Dory/Kiniski switch is at the top of the page. Rufus R. Jones got a hell of a lot of title shots! Also quite funny to note Dennis Stamp getting title shots against Funk in 76. I'm going to go through this pulling out all instances of either Dick Murdoch, Ivan Koloff or Ken Patera. Dick Murdoch CWF @ Miami Beach 1970/12/02 @ Jackie Gleason Theatre in Miami Beach, Florida (United States of America) Dory Funk Jr. © defeated Dick Murdoch CWF @ Nassau 1970/12/05 @ Nassau Stadium in Nassau (Bahamas) Dick Murdoch vs. Dory Funk Jr. © - winner unknown CWF @ Miami Beach 1971/04/14 @ Jackie Gleason Theatre in Miami Beach, Florida (United States of America) Dory Funk Jr. © defeated Dick Murdoch CWF @ Tallahassee 1971/07/02 @ Sports Stadium in Tallahassee, Florida (United States of America) Dick Murdoch vs. Dory Funk Jr. © - winner unknown CWF @ Tampa 1971/07/27 @ Fort Homer Hesterly Armory in Tampa, Florida (United States of America) Dory Funk Jr. © defeated Dick Murdoch CWF @ Tallahassee 1971/07/30 @ Sports Stadium in Tallahassee, Florida (United States of America) Dick Murdoch vs. Dory Funk Jr. © - winner unknown CWF @ Tallahassee 1971/08/13 @ Sports Stadium in Tallahassee, Florida (United States of America) Dick Murdoch vs. Dory Funk Jr. © - winner unknown CWF @ Orlando 1972/01/10 @ Eddie Graham Sports Stadium in Orlando, Florida (United States of America) Dory Funk Jr. © defeated Dick Murdoch Show @ El Paso 1972/01/31 @ County Coliseum in El Paso, Texas (United States of America) Dick Murdoch vs. Dory Funk Jr. © ended without a winner as a time limit draw (1:00 hours) Show @ Brownwood 1972/02/04 @ Coliseum in Brownwood, Texas (United States of America) Dick Murdoch vs. Dory Funk Jr. © - winner unknown Show @ Odessa 1972/06/06 @ Ector County Coliseum in Odessa, Texas (United States of America) Dory Funk Jr. © defeated Dick Murdoch Show @ El Paso 1974/08/12 @ County Coliseum in El Paso, Texas (United States of America) Jack Brisco © defeated Dick Murdoch Show @ Lubbock 1974/08/14 @ Fair Park Coliseum in Lubbock, Texas (United States of America) Jack Brisco © defeated Dick Murdoch by disqualification Show @ Amarillo 1974/08/15 @ Sports Arena in Amarillo, Texas (United States of America) Dick Murdoch vs. Jack Brisco © ended without a winner as a time limit draw (1:00 hours) [2 out of 3 Falls Match] Show @ Lubbock 1975/01/08 @ Fair Park Coliseum in Lubbock, Texas (United States of America) Jack Brisco © defeated Dick Murdoch by countout [special Referee: Lou Thesz] Show @ El Paso 1975/01/13 @ County Coliseum in El Paso, Texas (United States of America) Jack Brisco © defeated Dick Murdoch by countout Show @ Amarillo 1975/01/16 @ Sports Arena in Amarillo, Texas (United States of America) Jack Brisco © defeated Dick Murdoch by disqualification [2 out of 3 Falls Match] CWF @ Tampa 1975/02/11 @ Fort Homer Hesterly Armory in Tampa, Florida (United States of America) Jack Brisco © defeated Dick Murdoch Show @ St. Louis 1978/06/16 @ St. Louis, Missouri (United States of America) Harley Race © defeated Dick Murdoch MACW @ Greensboro 1978/07/02 @ Greensboro Coliseum in Greensboro, North Carolina (United States of America) Harley Race © defeated Dick Murdoch MACW @ Columbia 1978/07/04 @ Township Auditorium in Columbia, South Carolina (United States of America) Harley Race © defeated Dick Murdoch Show @ Odessa 1978/12/12 @ Ector County Coliseum in Odessa, Texas (United States of America) Dick Murdoch vs. Harley Race © - winner unknown Show @ Lubbock 1978/12/15 @ Fair Park Coliseum in Lubbock, Texas (United States of America) Dick Murdoch vs. Harley Race © - winner unknown Show @ Amarillo 1979/03/08 @ Sports Arena in Amarillo, Texas (United States of America) Dick Murdoch vs. Harley Race © ended without a winner as a time limit draw Show @ Lubbock 1979/03/25 @ Fair Park Coliseum in Lubbock, Texas (United States of America) Dick Murdoch vs. Harley Race © - winner unknown Show @ Odessa 1979/03/27 @ Ector County Coliseum in Odessa, Texas (United States of America) Harley Race © defeated Dick Murdoch Show @ Amarillo 1979/03/29 @ Sports Arena in Amarillo, Texas (United States of America) Dick Murdoch vs. Harley Race © ended without a winner as a double disqualification Show @ Florence 1979/08/06 @ Florence, Colorado (United States of America) Dick Murdoch defeated Harley Race © by disqualification Show @ Lubbock 1979/08/08 @ Fair Park Coliseum in Lubbock, Texas (United States of America) Dick Murdoch vs. Harley Race © - winner unknown Show @ Amarillo 1979/08/09 @ Sports Arena in Amarillo, Texas (United States of America) Dick Murdoch defeated Harley Race © by disqualification - TITLE CHANGE!!! [???!!!] Show @ St. Louis 1979/08/10 @ St. Louis, Missouri (United States of America) Harley Race © defeated Dick Murdoch CWF @ Jacksonville 1980/09/18 @ Jacksonville Veterans Memorial Coliseum in Jacksonville, Florida (United States of America) Harley Race © defeated Dick Murdoch JCP @ Norfolk 1986/09/11 @ Norfolk Scope in Norfolk, Virginia (United States of America) Ric Flair © defeated Dick Murdoch by disqualification JCP @ Charlotte 1986/09/13 @ 'Old' Charlotte Coliseum in Charlotte, North Carolina (United States of America) Ric Flair © defeated Dick Murdoch JCP @ Cincinnati 1986/09/23 @ Cincinnati, Ohio (United States of America) Dick Murdoch vs. Ric Flair © ended without a winner as a time limit draw JCP @ Raleigh 1986/10/01 @ Dorton Arena in Raleigh, North Carolina (United States of America) Ric Flair © defeated Dick Murdoch JCP @ Greenville 1986/10/06 @ Memorial Auditorium in Greenville, South Carolina (United States of America) Ric Flair © defeated Dick Murdoch JCP @ Baltimore 1986/10/09 @ Civic Center in Baltimore, Maryland (United States of America) Ric Flair © defeated Dick Murdoch JCP @ Greensboro 1986/10/11 @ Greensboro Coliseum in Greensboro, North Carolina (United States of America) Ric Flair © defeated Dick Murdoch JCP/CSW @ St. Louis 1986/10/12 @ St. Louis Arena in St. Louis, Missouri (United States of America) Ric Flair © defeated Dick Murdoch JCP @ Atlanta 1986/10/26 @ The Omni in Atlanta, Georgia (United States of America) Ric Flair © defeated Dick Murdoch Ivan Koloff MACW @ Norfolk 1974/07/04 @ Norfolk Scope in Norfolk, Virginia (United States of America) Jack Brisco © defeated Ivan Koloff Show @ St. Louis 1977/11/18 @ St. Louis, Missouri (United States of America) Harley Race © defeated Ivan Koloff by referee stoppage MACW @ Savannah 1981/08/23 @ Savannah, Georgia (United States of America) Dusty Rhodes © vs. Ivan Koloff - winner unknown MACW @ Columbia 1981/08/25 @ Columbia, South Carolina (United States of America) Dusty Rhodes © defeated Ivan Koloff MACW @ Charleston 1981/08/28 @ County Hall in Charleston, South Carolina (United States of America) Dusty Rhodes © defeated Ivan Koloff MACW @ Greenville 1981/08/31 @ Greenville, South Carolina (United States of America) Dusty Rhodes © defeated Ivan Koloff MACW @ Raleigh 1981/09/01 @ Raleigh, North Carolina (United States of America) Dusty Rhodes © defeated Ivan Koloff MACW @ Sumter 1981/09/03 @ Sumter, South Carolina (United States of America) Dusty Rhodes © defeated Ivan Koloff by disqualification MACW @ Knoxville 1981/11/06 @ Knoxville, Tennessee (United States of America) Ric Flair © defeated Ivan Koloff MACW @ Raleigh 1981/11/24 @ Raleigh, North Carolina (United States of America) Ric Flair © defeated Ivan Koloff by disqualification MACW @ Knoxville 1981/11/26 @ Chilhowee Park in Knoxville, Tennessee (United States of America) Ric Flair © defeated Ivan Koloff JCP @ Asheville 1985/09/08 @ Asheville Civic Center in Asheville, North Carolina (United States of America) Ivan Koloff vs. Ric Flair © ended without a winner as a no contest JCP @ Charlotte 1987/10/03 @ 'Old' Charlotte Coliseum in Charlotte, North Carolina (United States of America) Ron Garvin © defeated Ivan Koloff Ken Patera Show @ St. Louis 1980/08/08 @ St. Louis, Missouri (United States of America) Harley Race © defeated Ken Patera [special Referee: Lou Thesz] Show @ St. Louis 1981/01/02 @ St. Louis, Missouri (United States of America) Harley Race © defeated Ken Patera GCW @ Macon 1981/06/30 @ Macon Coliseum in Macon, Georgia (United States of America) Dusty Rhodes © defeated Ken Patera GCW @ Atlanta 1981/07/19 @ The Omni in Atlanta, Georgia (United States of America) Dusty Rhodes © defeated Ken Patera GCW @ Augusta 1981/08/03 @ Bell Auditorium in Augusta, Georgia (United States of America) Dusty Rhodes © defeated Ken Patera by disqualification Show @ St. Louis 1982/11/19 @ St. Louis, Missouri (United States of America) Ric Flair © defeated Ken Patera Final tallies for NWA World title shots Dick Murdoch: 41 Ivan Koloff: 13 Ken Patera: 6 Comment Well in terms of NWA World Title shots, it's pretty conclusive that Murdoch was a regular challenger from 1970 to 1986. Somewhat ironically given our earlier discussion, his numbers are helped out quite a bit by the fact that he headlined in Lubbock, TX But if you look, he also has multiple shots in Orlando, St. Louis, Greensboro, Charlotte, and The Omni. You'll note that Ivan Koloff only has two NWA title shots for the whole of the 70s. Why is that? Three reasons: 1. He was blackballed in 1975 for working IWA, 2. Associated with the WWF belt and as an opponent for Bruno, 3. He was a heel, which meant that he wasn't going to be the guy Harley Race or Terry Funk would face. He was a regular opponent for Dusty Rhodes in 1981. The lack of shots against Jack Brisco is because of the blackballing. Still, he doesn't have a great many shots to his name. Will leave Patera to Dylan. All-in-all, Murdoch's case looks a good bit stronger having mined that data.

Hey Will remember when we were recording five-hour podcasts about The Kinks and David Bowie that never seem to get released rather than "feuding" over Dory Jr and Dick Murdoch's place in the WON HoF? Where have all the good times gone?

I'm asking everyone on the board how much they value ... Facials Ha ha, look at that. Anyway, how important are facial expressions to you? I really value them and they are very nice to have, but I do think some people are unreasonably marked down if they don't have great ones. Case in point: So the guy might have been one of the greatest NWA champions, and may have a load of great matches to his name, but his FACE looked bored. What to do? I'm just picking this out as a sort of hidden or "under-the-radar" criteria, because facials aren't really something that people went heavy on in this thread, but clearly they are important in how certain guys are perceived. To what extent can someone's facial expressions boost or lower someone's ranking for you? This sounds like I'm being really facetious but I'm not I'm being deadly serious. And now "facetious" sounds like a bad pun. Ha ha.

I still can't work out if the eerie "Bobbbbbyyy Boobbbbbbby" chant in 91 was his entrance theme or the actual crowd. Either way, it's weird.

Coach Heath is a top 3 all-time colour analyst for me. Pete, have you seen Dory Jr vs. Mike Graham Australian rules match from Florida circa 81? Heath makes that match.

Certainty for my top 100, but probably in 80-100 region. - Tremendous heat, especially as a heel in 1981 WWF, and again in 1991 WWF - Great "marquee matches" - All-time great bumper - Magnificent chin, second only to Inoki's

Completely writing him off.

It would be cool if there could be a thread where people share a snapshot of these. The main place where my ratings are stored are in various threads on PWO, not the most organized system in the world. I haven't kept track of any ratings I've given out on podcasts beyond keeping a tally of the various end-of-show and end-of-year/decade awards on WTBBP, and there's no way I'm trawling through 200+ hours of audio to find them all. That's funny. I never use a straight 1/4 star but do use ***3/4 and ****3/4. It's why I sometimes use the letter ratings.

This is completely untrue and were Terry sitting there with you, he'd probably punch you for making that claim.

Well can you demonsrate using data from Kris's post where Murdoch was doing that outside of 70-1 Florida, a few months in 78 Mid-Atlantic and 85-6 Mid-South?

It's not just working towns, it's working ON TOP in towns and drawing them. This isn't a "this guy worked different territories in the 70s" case it's a HoF case.

Right but there were quite a few others guy who played Houston, New Orelans and Orlando who aren't really HoF worthy. Off the top of my head, Dick Slater probably had main events in those places. My point is that from that time period, unless you have something truly exceptional like Lawler in Memphis or JYD in Mid-South, a "HoF worthy" case is main eventing in WWWF, Mid-Atlantic, GCW, Florida and elsewhere and consistently drawing against different opponents. Murdoch wasn't working those big promotions for the most part and, my point is that what he actually did do -- US-wise -- isn't that remarkable for the timeframe for a guy on the road. I'm not trying to be a dick here, just pointing out some things I think were kind of glossed over when you were making the case. I don't see Murdoch's case as being anywhere near as strong as Ivan's.

Cheers, OJ. I didn't want to start a new thread for this but it's another Japanese question not related to the commentators ... How did New Japan and All Japan split up Japan geographically? Was it like the US territories where they each had certain towns or did they run against each other everywhere? Was all the business basically in Tokyo or did they move around? Were some guys bigger stars in certain parts of Japan as opposed to others or was it largely homogenous?