JerryvonKramer

J-Tex corporation. If anyone can do a blow by blow summary of that fucking mess I'll give them a cookie.

I seem to recall the reason Reed disappeared was because he went off to do rodeo.

Back to twitter then I guess.

In this age of hyper awareness in which everyone is more self-aware than everyone else, in which all discourse is always-already framed for an implied audience, the ultimate irony is that no one is watching, and that people have never before lacked self-awareness on such a grand scale.

Goc, you should bring more of your A-material to the board. Five days letting everyone know Jimmy Golden invented the Ganso bomb is wasted on the twitter plebs. Show us how it's done.

People need to start doing [/sarcasm] on their non-serious posts. I can no longer tell.

I'd have thought the example of Scott Keith's reviews would discourage this line of thought. In the right circumstances even the Mighty Hercules could have a great match (theoretically), and Funker can (and did) have off days.

Homewrecker Penguin has got to be up there: http://uk.complex.com/life/2016/11/cheating-penguins-fight-video-twitter-reacts

I always feel kinda frustrated when wrestling reviews lack ratings, dunno just feels like a cop out. If people beeline to the ratings and don't read the words, that's on them. I think stars carry a certain weight. On wtbbp recently we looked at the Jan 93 Tokyo Dome show co-promoted by WCW. We both gave Dustin / Norton vs Saito / Hash 3.75 and also came across Scott Keith tearing the match to pieces and giving it 1/2* After the show dropped several listeners went and watched that match themselves. I think the disparity in star ratings between us and Keith was a factor. Not just what we said and what he said, but the ratings. Of course another factor is that it's Hash and Dustin and fucking Mr Saito all in the same match, with Scott Norton working as a lost Steiner Brother. I think it's easy to throw out words like "reductive" but in practice I see that ratings have a genuine function in the community from day to day. Although here I think people are are generally good at explaining why they give certain ratings. The first thing I think when I see a Meltzer rating I'm puzzled by is "hmm, why did he give this that rating, what was he thinking?" It is fair to say that Dave is not a great critic.

fxnj - fantastic post, thanks a lot for that. I might see if I can check out a few more 50s matches in the next week trying to keep this way of looking at them in mind.

All I'll say is this: I'm proud of the 3 regular shows I do (Where the Big Boys Play, Titans, and now Letters from Kayfabe) each of which have built their own loyal audiences, and people who have supported these shows with regular feedback and even donations for years now. The first two of those shows are what made the PWO feed possible, and I'm also proud of what that has spawned and become. So, yes, check us out, let us know what you make of the shows, tell other people to listen. I want things to keep going from strength to strength in 2017, and the more listeners the merrier! Edit: Oh and watch Mystery Titans.

There is room enough in the universe for both. Kelly has legit been talking about doing this for a year. If any long time Titans fans have a problem with the overlap, I'm sure they will let us know.

Kelly, Johnny and Parv look at the comeback run of this completely forgotten wrestler.

Weird, it seems to have moved to here:

http://placetobenation.com/titans-of-wrestling-71-wwf-december-1982/ The Titans are back and plum to the very depths of wrestling despair as they journey boldly into one of the WWF's very lowest periods. You don't know man, you weren't there. On the docket: 11-27 ROGERS CORNER: JIMMY SNUKA WWF TV 12-04 ROGERS CORNER: DON MURACO WWF TV 12-11 ROGERS CORNER: BACKLUND/GILBERT/SKAALAND WWF TV 12-18 BACKLUND/GILBERT vs SENZA/MARTIN WWF TV 12-18 ROGERS CORNER: JOHN STUDD/FRED BLASSIE WWF TV 12-25 JOHN STUDD vs EDDIE GILBERT WWF TV 12-28 PEDRO MORALES vs DON MURACO IC TITLE MADISON SQUARE GARDEN 12-28 BOB BACKLUND vs SUPERSTAR GRAHAM WWF TITLE MADISON SQUARE GARDEN 12-28 JIMMY SNUKA vs RAY STEVENS MADISON SQUARE GARDEN Highlights include: - With Titans morale at an all-time low dredging through the quagmire, will all four members make it to the bitter end? - To what extent had Vince Sr tapped out completely by December 1982? - In-depth analysis of ... the mechanics of the Big John Studd bodyslam challenge. - Gorilla Monsoon continues to be a dick to Vinnie Jr on commentary. - They are lumberjacks, and they're okay.

I'm mainly just talking on a much more basic and fundamental level. What exactly do they do and why is it good? What do they do that later wrestlers don't do? Etc. It's the sort of thing that requires understanding and explanation. I picked Thesz vs. Gagne because I've seen it, I marked for the tiny (weensy) bit of stooging Thesz does late on but mostly found it dull, and Flair vs. Jumbo cos it is comparable in length and features longish mat sequences, but the specific examples are less important than gaining the understanding of what exactly makes the stuff good in your view. I don't think it is self-evident or obvious. We have reviews on this site where people are calling Jumbo vs. Terry Funk "slow". Some people (me especially) will need some guidance to see the value. What I see when I watch 50s stuff is a 70s match with the spots cut out, and so it feels like it "never gets going". For example, to me, the headlock sequences are all the same. One guy works a headlock, the other guy counters with a head scissors or body scissors, or else tries to lift himself out of it with a headstand (or whatever). They work around in various combinations, with some opportunistic pin attempts along the way. Eventually (10, 20 minutes?) they will transition to something else. If someone could walk through a Thesz headlock sequence pointing out exactly why it's interesting and when, rather than just "just a headlock", it might help get this stuff more over with fans of later wrestling.

I tapped out a few weeks back. Tempted to come back in for Survivor Series 90, but I soured on Conrad quite a bit.

HHH is an interesting one to think about in this regard since he does the Harley Race knee and the Arn Anderson spinebuster and most of the time JR actually called them that as well. Is HHH the first true "cosplay" wrestler?

I feel most people would come down to this. Sort of the "Good wrestling is good wrestling" approach. It is kinda my view too. World of Sport round system works. 2/3 structure in Portland works. Dory vs. Mike Graham "Australian rules" match works. War Games works. If it works it works.

Even worse for Dicky Slater is that no one remembers him in the 70s and early 80s when he was a very good worker and not much like Funk at all.

The key reason why I can't get into Lucha is the 2/3 falls structure in shorter matches where fall one is coming after 4 minutes and fall two after 10 usually with a longer third fall. The falls are almost always sudden and abrupt, and to me it disrupts the flow and feels disjointed. I like 20-30 minute one-fall main event matches in which the first act is more than table setting. My chief problem with 90s NJPW is the table setting which seems rout and obligatory. Close to my ideal would be stuff like Flair/Steamboat Chi-town, or Rude vs. Steamboat Superbrawl II, where the opening ten minutes feel as important as the finishing stretch. I don't mind a truncated shine sequence and an elongated heat sequence, and generally prefer that to the other way around (see AWA).

The idea of 26 minutes being a long match makes me wonder where we've come to. It might be fun to put some links back to my reviews of these same matches for comparisons (here). I was a bit more taken with the transitions than you. Glad to see Matt finally reviewing some Japanese wrestling though.

I don't think anyone has peddled that he was perfect. I am interested still to know what a Thesz did that later workers did not do though, on the mat I'm talking. I see a lot of standard sequences in those matches, sequences I see later guys doing. Is it more a case of the "edge" and perception of him as a shooter, or is there other stuff he's doing that I'm missing? Something like a detailed breakdown comparing holds and sequences in something like Verne vs. Thesz to something like Flair vs. Jumbo highlighting why one is better than the other would be much welcomed, but I would not be the guy to do it.

I guess a frustration for some of us over the years is that these accusations against Flair tend to come up on the most general level rather than through the discussion of specific matches. When we try to bring talk to specific matches, it doesn't seem to get followed. So which matches do you have in mind? Jumbo? Taylor? Garvin? Wahoo? Steamboat? Luger? Race? Dusty? Kerry? Tenryu? Lawler? Dibiase? I look at those twelve different opponents and see twelve 12 completely different matches, worked differently, and they are each good or memorable for their own different reasons. The point has been made many times yet never adequately addressed. To the extent that any of these has matwork, the one vs. Jumbo is probably the most mat heavy. Although you do see some of that stuff in the Taylor matches, there is some old-school NWA sequences in there, headlock countered by headscissors into the roll up attempts etc. etc., I mean it's not like he couldn't do the stuff. The Ron Garvin matches feature a good few of those exchanges, although rightly people probably remember the chops more (awesome). I guess I just question the extent to which Flair really was "rag dolling" like a bitch in any of these matches. It's not my memory of them. I think I've watched every Harley NWA title defence on tape, and he seemed to spend much more of his matches ragdolling than Flair, two of my least favourite matches ever are Race vs. Backlund and Race vs. Steamboat because they have babyface 95% on offense with no heat sequence. Race is terrible for bitching out completely, which is ironic because he's probably the best offensive wrestler of his generation. I feel like Flair always got in more time on top, and that even the account given by fxnj here is too simplistic and reductive in its generalisations. It's not true that the babyface would always get 20 minutes to shine to start before a transition. Sometimes he'd do some hold-counter hold stuff, sometimes he'd control a bit. The transitions when they do come tend to be very good also (always think of Luger Starrcade '88), and Flair is generally underrated (as much as the #1 GWE pick can be underrated) for they way he could go to work on a leg. Go and watch something like his Jimmy Garvin match, whatever you make of the match he fucking destroys Garvin's leg in it. Where I will agree is that I always get the sense that Flair himself would rather keep things moving and doesn't care for time spend on the mat. For a philistine like me of just can't stand drawn out matwork, he actually keeps things quite interesting cos they are never gonna lay there and he's going cry out "OH NO!" In pain so the guy sitting back in row Z is in no doubt that the move is hurting him. For some, cartoony, for me great work to make a boring hold more interesting. Flair did do matwork though, even if it was a little begrudgingly and de-emphasised by the structure of the match. I'd love someone to break down a Flair vs. Garvin mat exchange and tell me what exactly Thesz and co are doing that is so next level beyond it. I just see the same exchanges over and over again. Dory has about six or seven he cycles through, but it seems like everyone else has the same ones. Headlock-head scissors sequence Hammerlock-pin sequence The bridging sequence Back-slide sequence Greco-Roman knuckle lock sequence Etc. Etc. When I watch 50s stuff, all I see is several of those standard sequences we've all seen a million times strung together for an hour before some arbitrary and incidental finish. Maybe if more people could go into detail and break down some of it, show us what they are doing that is next level beyond what we'd see out of Flair or Jumbo matwork, it might help more people get into it. Thesz or even Verne who died and got some shine time got very few GWE votes or attention. I'll freely admit typical Verne matches bore the shit out of me.