JerryvonKramer

KrisZ, forgot to mention before: I saw Travis as a jobber on some of the TNT footage from 84 I watched.

It's Saturday and the weather is fine. Some people will be out drinking in the pubs and bars. Later on, some will go out dancing in the discos and the clubs. But not JerryvonKramer, for he will spend the day in the company of AWA 1986 vintage. And, of course, DVDR is down once again.

Never knew Adonis worked face.

The awards are now online: http://jerryvonkramer.ipage.com/podcast/wh...of-year-awards/ Posted here for convenience: Chad's Picks Best special celebrity guest – Lyle Alzado The Loss award for "Best ring apparel" – Miss Atlanta Lively Best personal hygiene – Terry Taylor Best Gimmick – Jim Cornette Worst Gimmick – Ranger Ross Best woman - Baby Doll Best ref – Randy Anderson Best manager – JJ Dillion Best Announcer (play-by-play) – Tony Schiavone Best Announcer (colour) - David Crockett Best Feud - Ric Flair vs. Ron Garvin Most Improved Wrestler – Lex Luger Best Show – Clash of the Champions 1 Worst Show – Bunkhouse Stampede 88 Best Tag Team - Midnight Express (Eaton and Lane) The Total Billy Graham Award for worst wrestler (+ next 4) 1 (worst) Dan Spivey 2. Billy Graham 3. Ranger Ross 4. Jack Victory 5. Paul Jones Best Face - Ric Flair Best Heel – Tully Blanchard Top 10 wrestlers (Ric Flair Award for Best Wrestler) 1. Ric Flair 2. Tully Blanchard 3. Ron Garvin 4. Ricky Steamboat 5. Lex Luger 6. Terry Funk 7. Barry Windham 8. Ricky Morton 9. Bobby Eaton 10. Bobby Fulton Top 20 matches 1. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (Clash 6) 2. Magnum TA vs. Tully Blanchard (Starrcade 85) 3. Ric Flair vs. Ron Garvin (Worldwide 9/26/87) 4. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (Wresltewar 89) 5. RIc Flair vs. Terry Funk (GAB 89) 6. Lex Luger and Barry Windham vs. Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard (Clash 1) 7. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (Clash 9) 8. Roddy Piper vs. Greg Valentine (Starrcade 83) 9. Rock & Roll Express vs Ivan Koloff & Krusher Kruschev (07/09/85) 10. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (Chi Town Rumble) 11. War Games 1: Anderson, Flair, Blanchard, Luger and Dillon vs. Nikita Koloff, Dusty Rhodes, The Road Warriors and Paul Ellering (GAB 87) 12. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (Starrcade 87) 13. Barry Windham vs Tully Blanchard (WCW 01/23/88) 14. Barry Windham vs. Ric Flair (Worldwide 1/24/87) 15. Barry Windham vs. Ric Flair (Crocket Cup 87) 16. Ricky Morton vs. Ric Flair (GAB 7/5/86) 17. Midnight Express vs Fantastics (Pro 03/26/88) 18. Ric Flair, Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs Lex Luger, Barry Windham & Sting (Main Event 04/03/88) 19. Tully Blanchard vs. Ricky Steamboat (Starrcade 1984) 20. Ronnie Garvin vs. Tully Blanchard (GAB86) Next Five: Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (Starrcade 88) Ole and Arn Anderson vs. The Rock 'n' Roll Express (Starrcade 86) Midnight Express vs. The Fantastics (Clash 1) Final Conflict Cage Match Nikita/Dusty vs. Tully/Lex (Finals of Crockett Cup 1987) Parv's Picks Best special celebrity guest - Jason Hervey The Loss award for "Best ring apparel" - The Blackmailer Best personal hygiene - Norman the Lunatic Best Gimmick – Ivan Koloff Worst Gimmick – The Dynamic Dudes Best woman - Baby Doll Best ref - Tommy Young Best manager - Jim Cornette Best Announcer (play-by-play) - Jim Ross Best Announcer (colour) - David Crockett Best Feud - Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger Most Improved Wrestler - Steve Williams Best Show – Great American Bash 89 Worst Show – Bunkhouse Stampede 88 Best Tag Team - Midnight Express (Eaton and Lane) The Total Billy Graham Award for worst wrestler (+ next 4) 1 (worst) Billy Graham 2. Dan Spivey 3. Ranger Ross 4. Johnny Ace 5. Flat-top Nikita Koloff Best Face - Ric Flair Best Heel - Terry Funk Top 10 wrestlers (Ric Flair Award for Best Wrestler) 1. Ric Flair 2. Ricky Steamboat 3. Tully Blanchard 4. Ron Garvin 5. Terry Funk 6. Lex Luger 7. Arn Anderson* 8. Barry Windham 9. Bobby Eaton 10. Ricky Morton * Places for Anderson and Luger switched during show. Top 20 matches 1. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (Clash 6) 2. Magnum TA vs. Tully Blanchard (Starrcade 85) 3. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (Chi-town Rumble) 4. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (GAB 89) 5. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (WCW 12/28/85) 6. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (Wrestlewar) 7. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton (GAB tour, 07/05/86) 8. Slaughter and Kernodle vs. Steamboat and Youngblood (Final Conflict) 9. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (Clash 9) 10. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (Worldwide 9/26/87) 11. Lex Luger and Barry Windham vs. Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard (Clash 1) 12. Ric Flair, Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs Lex Luger, Barry Windham & Sting (Main Event 04/03/88) 13. War Games 1: Anderson, Flair, Blanchard, Luger and Dillon vs. Nikita Koloff, Dusty Rhodes, The Road Warriors and Paul Ellering (GAB 87) 14. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (Starrcade 87) 15. The Fantastics vs. Eddie Gilbert and Ron Simmons (Clash 4) 16. Barry Windham vs Tully Blanchard (WCW 01/23/88) 17. Midnight Express vs Fantastics (Pro 03/26/88) 18. Barry Windham vs. Tully Blanchard (Main Event 04/10/88) 19. Roddy Piper vs. Greg Valentine (Starrcade 83) 20. Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (Starrcade 88) Just missed the cut: Rock & Roll Express vs Ivan Koloff & Krusher Kruschev © (Worldwide 07/09/85) Ricky Steamboat vs. Tully Blanchard (Starrcade 84) Ole and Arn Anderson vs. The Rock 'n' Roll Express (Starrcade 86) Bill Dundee vs. Sam Houston (Starrcade 86) Ronnie Garvin vs. Tully Blanchard (GAB 86) Midnight Express vs. The Fantastics (Clash 1) Midnight Express vs. The Fantastics (GAB 88) Lex Luger vs. Ricky Steamboat (GAB 89)

There is a move that is called a backdrop that is similar to a back suplex. At least according to late 80s Jim Ross. I'm guessing this thread is about the move from the ropes though. "He put his head down! Well that was a cardinal mistake for a pro"

I'm about to head out, but later on I will create a page on the website listing all our choices.

How did it work though? What's keeping the people going back week in, week out? Let's think about another medium for a while: comic books. A lot of comic books have the structure of a central hero who, week in, week out defeats the latest villain to hatch out their scheme. Batman tackles the Joker this week, the Penguin next week, and maybe during some downtime takes on Calendar Man or some non-costumed mobster. Even though Batman pretty much always wins, the audience still keeps buying the comicbook because they want to see how the latest villainous caper and how he foils it. It's very hard to imagine something like a comic book series following The Penguin devising villainous schemes week in, week out and then getting foiled by different heroes. That just doesn't make sense to me. Penguin does a crime. Hero foils it. Penguin goes away for a while as another villain comes in with their own scheme. Same hero foils it. That makes sense. Penguin does a crime. Hero foils it. Penguin does another crime. Another hero foils it. That seems like topsy turvy world. So how did the heel-led territories work? I guess Portland would be the one people know most about.

I think it's fair to say that through out history, company aces have tended to be babyfaces. From Bruno to Hogan to Austin to Cena; from Big Daddy to Jumbo to Jerry Lawler etc. etc., most promotions have thought it wisest to base their fortunes around a guy that the fans cheer. I have been wondering about if it's even possible to have a heel in the role of ace. If it is, how can it be sustained over any period of time? I was thinking about instances where it is at least imaginable that someone might argue that the heel was the ace. I want to put forward 4 test cases: - Flair in Mid-Atlantic / JCP - Bockwinkel in AWA - Hogan in 96-7 WCW - HHH in early 00s WWE I realise there are some crucial caveats with both Flair and Bock being travelling champs, but if they were not the aces of their respective promotions who were? In the AWA case, was Verne really still considered to be ace material before Hogan turned up? I can see pretty strong arguments to suggest that none of these four guys were really "aces", but they are the closest I can think of. Can a heel ace be sustained for a long time? What's the longest a heel has been on top of any company without being turned?

Things I would like to know from listeners of this episode: 1. What are your views on Piper/Valentine and do you think it is generally recognised (i.e. outside of these forums and DVDR) as a great match? 2. Chad surprised me by putting Bobby Fulton on his list at 10 while leaving Arn Anderson out altogether, bearing in mind all the shows and matches we've watched, can you see where he's coming from? 3. What is your take on Flair's character during the Funk feud. This is something of great interest to me -- as I said on the show, it's one feud where it feels like Flair is just sort of there. I think he's a little aloof / ambivalent / oblvious even about the whole thing. 4. Are you generally with us on Garvin or not? This seems to be the biggest thing people disagree with us over outside of PWO. I realise this is a mammoth show by the way, so we might leave a little gap here to give people a chance to listen. Believe it or not, we are trying to cut down on time. It's not working.

I agree and so will provide comments with mine. Will preface by saying I've still not got to 86+ AWA or seen any 90s All Japan: 5. I really want to put a WCW 92 era team here like Steamboat/ Dustin, Arn / Larry, Arn / Eaton or even Steamboat / Douglas but all those runs were too short to justify inclusion. So ... Stan Hansen and Tenryu (89) - a pair of total asskickers, Tenryu bringing bad assery to the max with his attitude, Hansen is Stan fucking Hansen. Unlike many other asskicker type teams these guys could really work too. And totally awesome matches to boot. 4. The Fantastics - two very good workers, Rogers probably the better worker overall but Fulton on his day could really bring it and outshine Rogers (soup23 put Fulton as his number 10 pick overall for 80s NWA workers). In NWA they seem to have a greater number of really good ****+ matches than the Rock 'n' Roll Express and, for my money, their offense is more dynamic and occassionally more brutal and intense (see that Gilbert/Simmons match or vs. MX from one of the TV matches in 88) 3. Arn / Tully - I do think they may be a smidge overrated in general, but that doesn't take away from the fact you've got an all-time great worker in Tully and once of the solidest of good hands in Arn on the same team. They work an interesting dynamic with Tully often playing a "weak link" chicken shit schemer and Arn the power man. Will never get enough of the spinebuster and the sling-shot suplex. Some truly great matches like vs. Luger/Windham at Clash 1. Some good stuff in WWF too. 2. Yatsu / Choshu (85-6) - Involved in the best tag match I've seen. Total kickass combination. Yatsu I maintain has some of the coolest offense of any wrestler, Choshu just oozes charisma and big-timeness. Together they have awesome double team spots and always work at a million miles an hour. Very awesome team. 1. The Midnight Express - it's not just Eaton and partner, it's Cornette too, a vital part of the package. I've seen some really great stuff from Lane recently in their 88-9 stuff working both heel and face. Condrey was probably the best "character" of the three of them, and certainly the best at schtick or working the crowd. Probably a smarter wrestler than Lane on balance, but Lane is a tad underrated I think. Eaton is obviously great.

No love for Saito / Bock?

I watched it and enjoyed it for the most part. Ric doesn't seem as sad as all that. When you look at guys like Ricky Morton or Jake, he's far from the most tragic guy in wrestling. His costs are absurd though. $300 a night on eating out, $140 a day on a housekeeper.

From what I've seen of AWA to the end of 1985 so far, Rick Martel is one of the 4 or 5 best fired up babyfaces I've seen. In fact, I am finding it hard to think of people who are actually as good as that when fired up for their comeback. I'd put Martel ahead of Hogan for it. I realise I need to see more face Lawler. Martel is also really superb at selling submission holds.

What is "hazing"? Not familar with that term.

You say there's less emphasis on a "gassed up look", but it strikes me that you don't get guys who look like Bobby Eaton, Tommy Rich, Ted DiBiase or Terry Taylor any more (I'd describe these as "wrestler's physiques", Jericho is the closest), let alone your Harley Races and Dick Murdochs. Everyone has very well toned bodies now. So arguably look is more important than it was. Would WWE put a guy who looks like Bobby Eaton on TV now? "Making it" is defined simply as "becoming a wrestler and making a decent living". The reason I asked the question is this: Do you think a guy like The Miz would have even been allowed to become a wrestler in the first place? Would this guy have ever made it through Stu's dungeon? Would any of the oldtimers have let him through the door? And would he have been able to see through all the abuse once he was through that door? Seems to me that there's a real disconnect between the old generation of wrestlers and the current generation. The older guys all got through by paying their dues after being allowed entry into what was essentially an old-boy's network. You had to have a certain type of personality and determined staying power even to get through the door, or you had to have an personal or family connection. The guys now seem a lot more ... I dunno, like normal people. I'm not saying The Miz is "just a normal guy", I'm saying that I wonder if he has the sort of personality that would have seen him break into the old-boy's network back in the day. The recruitment and selection process is very very different.

Yes. This at least was my original intention in June 2011. But that doesn't necessarily exclude Flair. His period under Bischoff after 95-6 to 98 for example saw him go from main eventer and company legend to virtual bit-part player. But then he goes back up the card, and then is presented as a legend in WWE with prominent feuds and matches until his in-ring retirement, so he's not a great example. Someone like Pedro Morales, for example, would count over a long period. From world champ to JTTS in 20 years. All wrestlers ultimately slide down the card. The question is who had the biggest fall. You'd be hard-pressed to make a real case for Flair.

This turned out to be quite a monster-long show, but I had a lot of fun putting a list together and looking back on all the stuff we've seen. Just wanted to say that I'm grateful to Chad for agreeing to do these shows with me almost a year ago -- couldn't ask for a nicer or more dedicated guy. It's been great getting to know him as this show has progressed and I'm glad we've managed to come this far. I still don't really understand how he gets through all the footage he does while being married and working a busy job. He's a wrestling-watching phenom, but it's good to know that he's almost always ready and prepared. I feel ready for the 90s now. Will probably be watching the Yearbooks in between shows from here on out, which I'm really looking forward to. Where the Big Boys Play #45 - 80s End of Decade Awards Chad and Parv briefly discuss Jackie Fargo, Matt Bourne and 80s AWA before launching into their end-of-decade awards marathon for Jim Crockett Promotions / NWA. Here are a list of the categories: The Loss award for "Best ring apparel" Best personal hygiene Best woman Best ref Best Manager Best Announcer (play-by-play) Best Announcer (colour) Best Gimmick Worst Gimmick The Total Billy Graham Award for worst wrestler (plus next bottom 4 wrestlers) Most Improved Wrestler Best Feud Best Show Worst Show Best Tag Team Best Face Best Heel Top 20 matches Top 10 wrestlers (plus the Ric Flair Award for Best Wrestler)

Trying to compile my top 20 matches here is impossible. I am looking at a list of 27 matches I legitimately rate ****1/2+ When the Crockett / NWA DVDR 80s Project set drops, it will be the set to end all sets.

Tully Blanchard vs. Barry Windham for the Western Heritage States title from 01/23/88 has a replay finish. There's this shot over Tommy Young's shoulder as he watches it back on the monitor.

Just think that Yatsu/Choshu vs. Jumbo/Tenryu tag is so awesome, fast-paced, intense etc. that it should be added to your list. I think it's like Luger/Sting vs. The Steiners on crack to the power of 10. For NWA: Garvin vs. Flair from 85, the studio match. MEATY

It's 5am I'm down to my last half pint of ale and this is what it has come down to. Buck Zumhof vs. Steve fucking Regal. The birds are tweeting and I'm getting a headache. I don't think I've ever gone into a match with lower expectations. This is dedication right here. Regal / Zumhof Zumhof is dancing. Lost me already. So I'm officially supporting Regal here. What am I actually doing with my life? This match is giving me an existential crisis. I don't understand why an attempted armdrag from Zumhof results in Regal face down on the mat. Regal didn't go over, he just dropped flat. What was Zumhof meant to be? A comedy act? A guy people were legit meant to be cheering for? What is he? Regal takes a proper armdrag now. The way Zumhof is working this arm is mildly interesting, he's just holding it and it doesn't look at all painful but ever once in a while he throws him a bit by the arm. That, I think, elevates this above being total total shit. It's shit but of an ever so slightly higher grade of shit. Connoisseur's choice shit. I'm minded of a disturbing film I watched a couple of years ago called Salo in which they actually do eat shit with teaspoons and then grade it. Y'know I've recently finished reading Bertrand Russell's History of Western Philosophy. A classic and excellent book that makes you think about the fundamental questions. I've got one: why does this match exist? Just think, the development of humanity from Plato to G.E. Moore culminated at that moment in THIS. Why does this exist? That headlock went on for so long that I take back what I said: this is not Connoisseur's choice shit, it's total total shit. 1, 2 ... NO. God's sake. Come on. Seriously fuck this match. I'm going to bed. F

This is probably a logical place to stop, but I said I'd see 85 out and god dammit, I will see 85 out even if it means watching Steve Regal vs. Buck Zumhof. --- As for the "group think" talking point, absolutely don't think this promotes it. I've been watching matches tonight with the podcast as company and have raved about matches that the guys on the show didn't seem to go crazy for and, likewise, they've been higher on matches I didn't think much of. I did think when I was actually on the show that I might have been being swayed or swept up in the group emotion when I felt myself going nuts for Wahoo vs. Bockwinkel (as we were recording), but then everyone else thought that match was great. Going back over comments, we seem to have diverged massively on that Kamala match too.

Boris / Martel Martel stomps a hole in Zhukov to start. He's almost wrestling himself here at times. I like how there's quite a lot of give in this AWA cages. It's like the steel is made of elastic bands. Martel's fire has got to be up there with the greatest. Zhukov's head looks like it's going to explode like a melon being rammed into that cage. What was that finish? We've seen some great cage matches on this set, this looked like it was headed to be another one. However, not only is that finish really bad, but also I'd have preferred it go on another 10 minutes or so. B

DVDR seems to having database problems. Brilliant. Comment for Hall/Hennig vs. Garvin/ Regal Hall is STACKED here. Shades of Billy Jack. Nice. Big. Crunchy. Headlocks from Hall on Garvin here. Nice 5-7 minutes feels like a whole bunch of nothing. Garvin's flying forearm was good. ----- How bad is Steve Regal! Dear god. I actually thought this was better than the Freebirds matches. D

Let's try this again then ... English ale, American style chips yada yada. Magnum TA vs. Ric Flair. This is something I wasn't expecting to see.