JerryvonKramer

It feels like an apples to oranges comparison. I've watched a lot of Lawler matches, he doesn't always throw the same punch. He has a lot of different styles of punch. Jabs, uppercuts, straight rights, flurries and so on. It's not really the same thing that I'm talking about. It's not one move its lots of different ones. The Flair chop is a spot. The same spot being used to different ends. That's what I was talking about.

One function of criticism is to open up people's eyes to things they didn't see before. 1. Chop at start of match that says "come on, you're in the ring with the champ now". It's a little wake up call, and a statement of intent. 2. Chop as a wear down tactic. It's meant to take the breath and wind out. Picture a big stiff chop in the corner. 3. Chop as an annoyance tactic. Especially against a bigger opponent. Picture Nikita getting increasingly pissed off. 4. Chop as method of getting over superiority of opponent. Picture Flair hitting Taker, say, and finding it has zero effect, trying again and then backing up and begging off, the hope in his face draining away. 5. Chop as a comeback. Especially when he's babyface, of course. 6. Chop as invite to chop exchange. One of the cool things about the Flair chop is that it invites a reply. This is where an exchange can start. And this can go in a number of ways, straight up manly exchange (see Tenryu match) or with either guy coming out on top and transitioning to something else. 7. Chop as feed to babyface comeback. Primary usage, more of a hint of desperation here. Think about that for a second, the same move he uses for his own comeback, also feeds a babyface comeback. 8. Chop as demonstration of total superiority. This is bully Flair kicking the shit out of Ricky Morton or whatever. 9. Chop as a pop to the crowd. This is when he hits it and woos and the crowd woo back. 10. Chop as a mind game. This is especially important in the longer matches. Flair might have been getting his ass kicked for twenty minutes and then he still goes and pulls a huge stiff chop out and it's a mind fuck. A lot of Flair as champ psychology is about playing with hope and then taking away hope. That's what I see. I hope this will enrich other people's experiences of watching Flair matches.

The guy with the communist gimmick?

I was relentlessly fair to Taker, he finished just outside my #100 and had the same score as Magnum TA and The Iron Sheik. Magnum got the spot due to tiebreaker rules: Undertaker Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 1/3 = 4 Intangibles 9 Great matches 5 Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 3 1. Hulk Hogan, 2. Shawn Michaels, 3. Mankind, 4. Jeff Hardy, 5. Kurt Angle / Rock, 6. Brock, 7. Randy Orton, 8. Batista, 9. Edge, 10. Big Show, 11. HHH, 12. CM Punk, 13. Vince, 14. Kane, 15. Austin, 16. Diesel, 17. Bret Hart Variety = 17 opponents = 7 28 -------- I was really just having a bit of fun in this thread, apologies if I offended or hurt the feelings of any Undertaker fans. I did thank him for the memories.

I'm not sure that this thread or poll is really getting at the original thing I was talking about. I wasn't really talking about skill or technique or execution. I was really talking about the many different things Flair can get out of a chop within the confines of a single match. Much of that is about context and psychology rather than about skill. I wasn't really saying "Flair throws a great chop", I was talking about what he's able to wring out of it in many different moments. See posts above.

It was fleshed out. In this series of posts: This was exactly what I was talking about. Perhaps not always the strongest or loudest, but always great audio on his and absolutely no one was better at *using* the chop rather than just throwing it out there for the sake of it. Such a brilliantly organic and smart worker. Can throw 10 chops in one match and each one will be in a different context and carry a different meaning. Little 10-year old Low Ki never understood that, I reckon. There's also the one he throws just before the beg off, with the hope draining out of his face. Brilliant spot to feed a babyface comeback.

My point was to emphasise the sheer volume of shockingly shit or forgettable stuff he was involved with at every stage and in every era of his lengthy run.I waive post-peak stuff as being periferal at best to cases. Taker didn't have a peak, so it is all fair game. I am angered by the charge of hypocrisy, genuinely angered, because I've been ridiculously consistent in applying criteria. Anyway, if "Being the best guy in WWE for a while in 2007" and a handful of good matches on prominent PPVs is enough to make someone a top 100 worker of all time, so be it. The voters have spoken.

When was he one of the best workers in the world would you say?

Flair could have died in 1991 instead of going to WWF and giving us an all-time Rumble, all-time promos and a memorable feud with Savage, and his case would be made already. I realise that Undertaker was always already dead, but what year do you think his case was made by? And what low points during that peak run of Taker's would you say are comparable to Flair's low points 78-89? What are Flair's low points 78-89? To use your favourite word, goc, that line you wrote was "silly".

The reason Flair could get more nuances out of his chops than Kobashi is because his character was more multi-faceted than Kobashi's and so there were different and deeper registers to go to. Being mostly a heel helps there. It is a shame GWE has coloured things to the extent where basic appreciation of a master at his craft has to be tinged with certain overtones. I look forward to the day we can just talk about wrestling again without them. I'm not sure if there is another move in wrestling as multilayered as Flair's chop, in terms of how many different things it can do in the course of a match. I'd have to think. Misawa's elbow might have more depth but probably less range or versatility. Kobashi is #2 chopper in my view.

I maintain the work they do in that first thirty minutes is not much different from your typical Muraco vs. Pedro snoozefest, only Muraco probably switches up a bit more than tunnel-vision Bob. Maybe I'll review the match again one day. The idea it's on par with Bock vs. Hennig or something like that seems bizarre to me. I'm also saying this really cos I can see a lot of newcomers to Bob being really put off and put to sleep by that match, and he has so many more accessible and enjoyable matches. It's an era that can be hard to get into and my instinct is that match will turn off more people than it turns on. Why not watch the 82 Greg matches which are so much more exciting? Or Patera Texas death? Or Adonis match or Patterson or any number of great matches he's had? I'd argue that it would be better to go for that 79 Greg match last, once you've built up an understanding of all of Bob's weird quirks, etc.

When was Undertaker's peak?

Also, I think his 1980 match with Hulk Hogan is an EXCELLENT carry job. Andre will rank higher on this list, but Andre couldn't do shit with Hogan in 1980. Backlund got a GREAT match out of him.

I think one of my criticisms of Backlund around that time was that he has a "paucity of imagination". Like a lot of 70s guys will progress through holds. Not Bob. Headlock ... errrr ... back to the Headlock!!! Now what ... HEADLOCK! It's like he's got tunnell vision. He is pretty consistent with it. Sometimes it's the row row row. Sometimes it's a leg hold. But he doesn't just go back to a specific body part but to a specific HOLD. For like 20 straight minutes. Sometimes I think "Bob... BOB do you have a single other idea in your head?" My qualms with Backlund are well documented, I won't go over them here. I just think the 82 series between Bob and Greg is way way better than the 79 stuff, to the point of being blow-away great. In fact, Backlund has a really strong case to be "best worker in the world" in 1982 now I come to think of it. Adonis, Slaughter, Orton Jr, Snuka. All 82. He had a smokin hot year.

It's a thread about chopping and it was made by me. What do you expect?

With Flair it has GOT to be Wahoo hasn't it? Hasn't he said it is Wahoo a lot of times? He was around when Wahoo vs. Johnny Valentine was going on. And he tagged with Greg late 70s. Flair and Greg are actually really similar workers in some ways. Someone was talking about that recently on one of the show. Was an astute point.

Have you seen his hour draw with Valentine? I'll continue to bring this up, but when both workers say that Greg was blown up after 3-4 minutes and that was the reason they sat in a headlock for the first 30 mins, why is it so routinely overlooked when analysing that match? What makes the 30-minute headlock Bob does there better than a 30-minute Don Muraco chinlock? Serious question. The story with that match is that Bruno was stuck in snow or something, and they unexpectedly had to go long. Greg got blown up, which is why they laid an egg for the first half. Then it picks up. I see a lot of people shower ***** on that match, but both Bob and Greg have MUCH better stuff against each other and on the mat.

I don't think some of the Japanese guys had the same level of psychology in their chopping as Flair did. I find Tenryu a more one-dimensional chopper, so he'd be below in the chopping ranks. That said, Tenryu vs. Flair from 92 is a very good chopfest.

Don't worry, that's what they all say.

I specifically mean the scenario where you can clearly see one worker waiting for the other worker to hit a particular move. They stagger like they are in a video game until Shawn hits that kick or Rock hits the Rock Bottom or whatever it is. Absolutely abysmal trope. Video game wrestling of the lowest order. A variation on this is when the guy doing the move is gesturing for the other guy to get up so he can hit their move. Bottom-drawer work of the most bottom of drawers. This trope also plagues most John Cena matches.

Judy, you are a weird bird.

One thing I've learned is that El-P drastically overrates Backlund.

My least fave modern WWE trope is the endless waiting around for certain finishers to hit. It's another one I blame on HBK: namely, his "winding up" of the sweet chin music. Fucking awful trope.

I'm okay to be an outlier on this: I don't and have never seen the fuss over LA Park. The time I spent watching his matches for this project is time I'll never get back, and I blame Grimmas for it.

The Destroyer was my 29th. I don't have great love for him like some people do, but do dig his character work.