Ricky Jackson

I think the Feb 20 show is supposed to be the kick-off show for Mania with the Rock appearing, so good timing for you. Also good on you for having a wife who is more into WWE than you are---my wife humours me from time to time, but essentially she thinks wrestling is juvenile garbage.

Yes, the somewhat socialist aspect of TV revenue sharing in America's Favorite Sport is one of life's great ironies. (although, I think revenue sharing was first implemented in the 60s (50s?) to basically prevent the pattern of franchise failures and instability that plagued the NFL during its formative years)

Thank God I'm not the only one who considers those movies the most overrated, overhyped thing in the history of mankind.

Eh, you Europeans just don't understand the greatness of REAL Football. Seriously, I enjoyed Ross and his real sports commentary style in the early 90s because it was such a contrast to the often too cartoonish world of the WWF. I haven't rewatched any Saturday Night's from that period and have only watched a few of the WCW ppv matches here and there, so I haven't got to a point where Ross' football obsession has become annoying. The man loves football and he cut his teeth in a territory where emphasizing a wrestlers athletic background was considered a key part of getting someone over and making wrestling seem "legit" to the mainstream. He was just continuing the tradition of NWA-style commentary, but had a bit more of a hard-on for football than most. (and what the man may or may not have fantasized in the privacy of his bedroom is his own business ) Regarding Steve Williams, I just don't get the love or understand why he made the HOF ahead of so many other guys . Granted, I have only seen a smattering of his work over the years, but what I have seen has usually bored me to tears and hardly left me dying to see more of his matches. Just my opinion, though.

One of my all time faves as well. I remember watching this match with a group of friends who were wrestling fans, but far from being hardcore like me. Needless to say, this match sucked them in completely and had them marking out for all the big spots, more so than just about any other match I watched with them during a period (roughly between 96-98) when I hosted numerous WWF and WCW ppvs in my parents basement (and yes, I have moved out ) Great times... Anyway, yeah, excellent match, holds up well, and one I usually watch again every few years.

Flair and Warrior worked house shows in Sept/Oct 92. All I could find online is a fancam match. Couldn't find any results for a Warrior/Ramon singles match, but they did meet up in the ring: They also ran this match in Boston, Baltimore and a few other places.

Just a few quick notes, as I've got nothing better to do on my day off and it's bitterly cold outside... The Valiants worked three MSG main events against Sammartino and Strongbow: 8/26/74, 10/7/74, and 1/20/75. The only number Cawthon lists is "over 22,000" for the 10/7/74 show, but they must have had some drawing appeal for Vince Sr to go with them three times on top, and even if it was with super draw Sammartino on the opposing side. Not counting the Rocca/Perez era and one time or short time pairings like Blassie and Volkoff, heel tag teams worked MSG main events before--Fuji and Tanaka vs babyface dream team Sammartino and Morales on 10/16/72, and the Mongols vs Sammartino and Rivera on 8/1/70 (Bepo Mongol also worked solo vs Sammartino on 9/14/70 and 10/23/70)--but after the Valiants I couldn't find any others (Afa and Sika worked solo main events vs Backlund in 1980), so they were a "special" team in that regard. In Boston, they also worked three main events: 10/12/74 and 11/9/74 vs Sammartino and Larry Z, and 1/13/75 with Albano vs Sammartino, Monsoon and Strongbow. Philly results for the 70s on Cawthon's site seem to be a little spotty, but on 10/5/74 the Valiants and Kowalski main evented against the awesome combo of Sammartino, Andre and Haystacks Calhoun. No attendance numbers for those shows, though. So, it seems they were a hot act in New York for the better part of a year. But so were numerous wrestlers over the years, many who are not in the HOF. I know they worked in Indianapolis prior to going North and apparently worked in several other areas after (Georgia, Florida, San Fran, Indy again, etc), but I have no clue what kind of numbers they put up. In the end, a great short term act, but not great enough (no record numbers or all-time classic matches) to be HOF worthy. Edit: Regarding the 10/5/74 match in Philly, the description on Cawthon's site makes it sound really epic:

97 also suffered from Shawn's bailing in the months building to the show. In defense of Warrior (I can't believe I'm saying that), WM VI did have the second or third biggest attendance figure in WWE history up until that point. Maybe...but Shawn couldn't draw flies to shit during his title run in 96, so I'm not sure if he would have made much of a difference. Maybe for a rematch with Hart, but who knows. Hogan vs Warrior was a very appealing match at a time when face vs face matches happened once in a blue moon, especially in the main event scene. Warrior was super over and *seemed* like he would be a draw, but he wasn't. I wonder if part of the problem was Hogan setting the bar so high. I've bashed Warrior a lot over the years myself, but I'll admit he was a part of quite a few memorable matches and angles, at least between 88 and 91/92.

Yep, Taker vs Sid was a main event people were just dying to see.

Here's the latest. Yet another strange grouping. Which of these is the strongest Hall of Fame ballot contender Jimmy Hart 187 48.4% Bill Goldberg 61 15.8% Yuji Nagata 47 12.2% Skandor Akbar 29 7.5% Ultimo Guerrero 15 3.9% Cima 12 3.1% Los Hermanos Dinamita 12 3.1% Masato Tanaka 11 2.8% Hector Garza 7 1.8% Naoya Ogawa 4 1% Manabu Nakanishi 1 0.3% Also... I could be wrong, but I think 1997 was the only time Mania wasn't the top drawing WWF/E ppv of the year.

wrong thread

An 80s WWF star finishes first, often by a large margin, in almost every one.

Tito tops one of the weird mish-mash of guys HOF ballot polls Dave has been doing recently:

The internet and all its wonders knows no borders.

I think Clay's gimmick will either get over huge or sink like a stone, with no in between. I'm gonna say Jericho stays mute until the Monday after the Rumble.

It's been so long I'd forgotten the F in WWF stood for Foundation.

Miller is in the HOF as well.

Jose Lothario? Probably someone else I'm forgetting.

Bravo gentlemen. I can't say I agree with a lot of the points raised, or that I haven't found the argument to be tedious at times, but the degree of thought expressed in this whole deal was impressive. Really, a lot of the recent discussion regarding wrestling theory on this board has been impressive and far beyond my ability to articulate.

Johnny Valentine is one of the wrestlers that have intrigued me the most over the last few years. Part of it is because of the mystique surrounding his career due to the lack of footage of his prime years, best matches and angles, etc. The other thing that interests me is how those who saw him wrestle describe his style as being unique and how he was obsessed with realism in his matches, to the point of working a hold for 20 minutes and refusing to run the ropes, among other things. I also love his quote regarding his wrestling philosophy: "I can't make the fans believe wrestling is real, but I can make them believe I'm real." I've really become a fan of guys who worked the methodical, 60-minute draw, "real wrestler" style you don't see anymore, like Dory Funk Jr, Jack Brisco, Thesz, and others. I would LOVE to see more Johnny Valentine matches if possible.

I've always found the term rather ambiguous, but I would consider a wrestler behaving in a manner that suggests they are "thinking" like their character as "good psychology".

Comparing 84-93 Tito to 84-93 Bret is interesting. As far as who had the best matches, Tito from 84-90 would have the edge, although Bret had many memorable tag and singles matches over that time. Survivor Series 90 was a turning point for both men, as Bret had his breakout performance with DiBiase, while Tito had his last real spotlight moment making it to the final match with Hogan and Warrior. Bret gets the big push in 91 and Tito slides into a JTTS role, so Bret has the edge from 91-93 (I really need to see more of Tito's El Matador matches, though). Both were great. Overall, who was better from 84-93? *Flips coin* Uh, Bret.

I'm not sure Steele ever had a really good match, even in the 70s against Sammartino, Morales and Backlund. Heated matches, yes (even though I haven't seen them in years, I think his matches against Savage were at least heated), but not good ones. I guess if you go by the adage "if the crowd is into the match, it's a good match" Steele had tons of good matches over the years. Workrate wise, zero as far as I've seen. He could be a serious candidate for worst-working main eventer of all time.

Still haven't seen this match after all these years. I guess in the Youtube era I have no more excuses...

I think the day you begin to find fault with Ricky Steamboat's in-ring work is the day you've officially watched too much wrestling.