DMJ

In order, but not ranked... Steamboat vs. Savage - WM3 Rick Rude vs. Ultimate Warrior - WM5 Hogan vs. Savage - WM5 Hogan vs. Warrior - WM6 Savage vs. Warrior - WM7 Nasty Boys vs. Hart Foundation - WM7 Piper vs. Hart - WM8 Savage vs. Flair - WM8 Hart vs. Hart - WM10 HBK vs. Ramon - WM10 Hart vs. Austin - WM13 Edge & Christian vs. Dudleys vs. Hardys - WM16 The Rock vs. Hogan - WM18 Benoit vs. HHH vs. HBK - WM20 Edge vs. Foley - WM22 James vs. Stratus - WM22 McMahon vs. HBK - WM22 Flair vs. HBK - WM23 Undertaker vs. Edge - WM23 Undertaker vs. Michaels - WM24

I'm heading to Columbus (OH) to watch the show with friends, as per tradition. While my buddy has the Network, I believe the plan is that we'll be ordering the show via Time Warner to ensure that everything is a go. Personally, I have not bought the Network yet because I expect a lot of the kinks to be worked out following Mania. If even 10% of the subscribers have issues, it is going to be a big story and bad word of mouth is not a good thing when I believe there are still LOADS and LOADS of wrestling fans (like myself) who feel like the best time to buy a 6-month subscription will be the summer, when many people typically have more free time. Plus, by then, the MLBTV should be running relatively smoothly, giving me even more confidence that the Network is going to get that needed support. Sunday should be a VERY interesting night, in ring and out, but we're not risking a bad stream when there will be 8-10 fans coming together from around the state for the sole purpose of enjoying the show together and imbibing in some of Earth's other greatest achievements.

If you're a fan of comedy, James Adomian does an absolutely HILARIOUS, SPOT ON Jesse Ventura imitation. He was on an episode of the podcast Comedy Bang Bang with Jon Daly (Kroll Show) and I was basically crying for 60 straight minutes. Adomian comes on as Ventura and stays in character the whole time (as per usual for the show) and while the majority of his jokes are about Ventura living "off the grid," there is one joke about Butch Reed that is worth listening to the whole thing for. The imitation is just supernaturally good. Highly, highly, highly recommended.

This made me think how cool it would be if the WWE Network could "retcon/blue screen replace" the Jason Hervey/Paul E. Dangerously feud from WCW with Ziggler as Hervey. I'm thinking Weezer "Buddy Holly" video style. Also, that thought was really OT, so, to get things back on track, I've got Sheamus winning the battle royal. Who you got?

I don't recall it being THAT bad...but, personally, I think it's more like one of those things where they know they have it, they just don't think its necessary. And, while I totally see Brie/Steph being a great catfight, I also think it'd be overkill at this point. The comparison isn't super apt, but it reminds me of Flair/Hogan in 92'. They knew that was a PPV worthy storyline. They made money with it at MSG and would've made even more if the feud had been extended into WM9...but things happened and they never could maximize their profits with it. The same could be said for Cena/Taker if it isn't at Mania next year (which, I think is a keyless, combinationless LOCK). I think Punk/HBK and Jeff Hardy/HBK were "gimmes" that never got "given." The stars just didn't allign, but they were obviously dream matches in terms of the WWE folklore around these characters at different times in their careers. So, yeah, Brie Bella vs. Stephanie McMahon sounds really natural. Brie & Daniel vs. Cena & Nikki sounds really natural. Brie Bella getting stalked by Bray Wyatt during the Bryan/Wyatt feud sounded really natural. And while maybe there is some truth in Brie not getting that kind of screentime because she's a poor actress/worker, I really think it has more to do with Creative thinking things through and realizing that it just isn't necessary (and could actually be detrimental to Bryan's popularity) when this feud already has so much heat.

Yeah. The Sheamus/Christian feud is a great example of terrible booking. Let's take two guys and have them show their stuff in a trio of good matches...but let's not give the audience any reason at all to care who wins or offer any explanation to why they keep getting booked against eachother. Had this been over the affection of a Diva, or a future title shot, or to prove to an Authority that they should be getting some opportunity at Mania, or because one screwed the other one out of a title, then you'd have had something that *might* have even been worthy of a Mania showcase...but they didn't bother to do ANY of those things. The Titus/Darren Young program had better build.

Not really adding much to the convo here, but on a recent episode of his podcast, Stone Cold namechecked Shane Douglas as someone he felt was a "bad ass" babyface worker. (I think this was the Zeb Colter episode, but I may be wrong) It may not be everyone's opinion, but I put a fair amount of stock in Austin's opinions based on how long his career went, how successful it was, and how many different people he worked with throughout his career.

I think Ric Flair had all the greatest heel qualities one could have. Cowardly at times, but also impossible to outsmart. Vince McMahon in the Attitude Era had this too. I like dominant heels too, but personaly, I kinda like the heel template set forth by Flair (but probably others before him) that Edge and Jericho nicked. Beatable, but so darn crafty that they could believably topple any goody two shoes. To me, its that believability that is even more important than whether or not their character is justified. I'm not sure Flair was ever justified in his screwing over top babyfaces (I guess his motivation was to stay champ), but it was so much more fun to root against him when you knew that, on any day, someone like Rick Steiner or Brian Pillman would have his number. This is where the current product has gone wrong, in my eyes - nobody believes Alberto Del Rio, even if cheats, can beat John Cena.

^ Wow, really interesting points brought up. I'm not sure where I'd lean in this debate. To me, ranking Triple H is always a little difficult because I was never a huge fan of his work and I think I've seen a ton of it as a WWE fan dating back to the early 90s. As the blue blood, he was good-not-great, but definitely had a spark and I thought the feud with Curt Hennig in the mid-90s could've been awesome. In early DX, his personality came through a lot more and he definitely showed he had charisma - but, to me, even as leader of DX V.2, his mic work came off as below Shawn or his Clique buddies Hall & Nash. Better than Waltman, though. His in-ring work is hard to gauge because he's never been a flashy worker (like HBK) or a great technician (like Benoit or Hart), but does maybe sneak into the top 10 list in terms of brawling. His work might even be the epitome of "Attitude Era main event style," even moreso than Austin or The Rock. Since 2002, Triple H has continued to deliver great matches on occasion and good matches mostly, with some major stinkers (vs. Kozlov). Its also hard to ignore certain booking decisions he's been involved in over the years, but I try to keep that out of my mind when I want to rate his work objectively. For the past 5-6 years, we haven't seen him mix it up with anyone but the biggest stars - namely Taker, Lesnar, Cena, Orton, Big Show & Jericho, and, well, that's about it, save 1-2 matches thrown in against Sheamus, Punk, and the Legacy (memba dem?). Orton, on the other hand, has really faced everyone worth facing on the roster for the past decade, from midcarders like Kofi Kingston and The Miz to main eventers like Cena, Punk, Mysterio, Del Rio, and Big Show to aging vets like Kane and Christian to top prospects like the Shield and Antonio Cesaro. In all of these pairings, Orton has been fairly consistent, but like Triple H before him, overexposure and indifferent audiences make him someone that is not necessarily easy to appreciate in 2014. So - who is better? I'm gonna go with Triple H...by a nose...but I think the next 2 years WILL change things as Orton is still young enough that, unless he gets seriously injured, he will likely have really great programs in the future against a variety of talents that Triple H will likely never face (The Shield, Cesaro, Bray Wyatt, etc.).

Gotta love any list where this guy is credited as a World Champion. http://www.guresmania.net/pics/godfather/13.jpg

I'm watching Savage & Hogan vs. Avalanche & The Butcher (that's Ed Leslie, not Abdullah) from an episode of WCW Main Event from March 95'. Two random thoughts - Why is this the episode's OPENING bout? and Hogan seems so out of place in the studio setting, especially way its filmed, which really makes it seem like half the size of a high school gym. Hogan may not have been at peak popularity in 95', but he still just seems like too big a star to make sense wrestling for just a couple hundred people.

Two questions for the group - 1) Could it be possible that they are pushing Batista as a heel because someone thinks that will actually HELP him get over as a face? I know that seems illogical, but think about - the fans have been cheering Reigns and Bray Wyatt and Cesaro and booing Cena and Orton. Batista is getting booed as a face, so, maybe they think, if they push him as a heel it will somehow turn him into an anti-hero? Kinda like "Hey, now that McMahon wants us to boo him, let's cheer him"? Seems far-fetched, but I thought I'd pose that question... 2) If Bryan wins the title at Mania, where does Orton go? My thought would be that Bryan holds onto the title for awhile, retains against Cena or Wyatt in later months, and then eventually drops it to Batista or Lesnar, who would be heels at this point. Then, if Batista is out for awhile promoting his movie or Orton takes time off (which I could really see at this time), either one coming back to take the title off Lesnar (who would potentially still be heel as he would defend the title and retain against Bryan and maybe Cena too) would make them faces by default? Kinda like how when Punk left after WM29, he got a face pop just because he was coming back? I could honestly see that working for Orton if he takes a long enough break. Do you think the fans would accept a face Orton or is the audience so behind that Bryan that everyone else will be second banana (behind him and Cena) for the foreseeable future?

Great points brought up all around. Adding Bryan to the main event at Mania DURING WrestleMania seems silly because, by that point, the Bryan fans who are against purchasing this are not going to have bought it on the hopes that he'd be inserted during the show. This is why I feel like the Rumble buyrate may not be super high (I know I had no interest in spending $60 on the off chance that Bryan was added to the Rumble in the 25th hour) and why certain PPVs headlined by Bryan may have been under-performers in the fall (as most predicted he would get screwed during the main event anyway). If the WWE wants to pull in the Bryan supporters, they'll need to telegraph things by having the stipulation that if he beats Triple H he gets into the main event (or challenges the winner) CLEARLY stated WEEKS in advance. Of course, it's silly to even be talking about buyrates considering the Network was launched yesterday, but again, there is still international purchases to worry about. I'm not sure of Bryan's drawing power outside of the US, but I would imagine, based on the overseas popularity of guys like Bret Hart in the 90s, that the international market may tend support CURRENT stars more than the legends. Maybe because it is the current, active stars, not the Lesnars or Takers or Rocks, that end up doing the overseas dates more often??? Finally, Batista was "heeling it up" quite a bit last night and the announcers DID make the comment that fans were booing him because he had "taken Daniel Bryan's spot." This, to me, was a planted line directly from McMahon as I don't recall that being the company line a month ago. That being said, I do think Batista could be turned face after Mania if he starts doing things that a face could/should do - for example, rescue Daniel Bryan from a beat down or power bomb Triple H. The problem is, they've had him going up against Del Rio (basically a tweener because the audience doesn't even bother to boo him) and, at the Rumble, Roman Reigns (who the audience is dying to cheer for). They also had him, on his first night back, hug the Authority, whose been screwing Bryan over for months. Everything the man has done has been at least a little bit hellish and he's done NOTHING to make even the young fans like him.

I don't think it's a great example, but Damien Sandow and Cody Rhodes feud this past summer seemed like it SHOULD'VE put them both in better positions. As it played out, only Cody seemed to get the rub, while Sandow, who still had the briefcase moved on to absolutely nothing of note. Right now, Titus and Darren Young have a feud going, but, again, I think its fairly obvious that only Titus will come out of this strong and, even if he does get on a roll, I don't see him overcoming Reigns, Ambrose, Bray, etc. in terms of making waves in the main event in 2014. Overall, you're dead on - they have a bunch of midcarders, but don't seem to know how to build purposeful feuds out of them. It's a shame, really, because they have 5+ hours of weekly TV to do it and a roster so stacked that you could essentially put names on a board, shoot darts at it, and create interesting pairings...like, say, Evan Bourne vs. Del Rio (Plucky underdog vs. overconfident veteran) or Dean Ambrose vs. Big Show (huge loudmouth vs. huge man).

This tells me a few things, all of which are not really that negative about Bryan's drawing power. Battleground tanked because it came 3 weeks after the highly-criticized Night of Champions show (which, itself, did a poor number compared to the previous year). One could argue that this shows Bryan wasn't a draw, but let's also remember that SummerSlam did a disappointing number (with Cena and Lesnar in prominent roles). Call me a "glass half full" guy, but can you imagine the numbers these shows would've done WITHOUT Bryan? Oh wait, you can. Look at Survivor Series, where Bryan was put in a tag match of little consequence. It dropped 31,000 buys. Hell in a Cell (which, I must add, also featured Cena's return) was up - and, to me, that has a lot to do with the fact that you had Shawn Michaels serving as ref and people may have actually felt like Bryan was going to win the big one (I'm not sure anyone thought that about NoC or Battleground). As for the TLC butyrate....6,000 more buys? For a card featuring The Most Important Match in WWE History? A card that was 10 Years In The Making? A card that featured a unification match that many fans expected would be a "natural sell"? There's no way to put lipstick on that pig. TLC was an underperformer while Battleground did what most would expect for a last minute, thrown together show mere weeks after an abysmal PPV like NoC.

Maybe someone else knows, but maybe they're holding off until after Elimination Chamber because their case will be stronger at that point? I know nothing about law or contracts, but I am also super surprised that Dish hasn't filed a lawsuit yet and the only explanation I can think of is that they're getting their ducks in a row and believe they'll be in a better position later rather than sooner.

^ Ya' think so? While I'm not doubting it, part of me wonders if Edge is going to want to induct an ex-girlfriend who, while doing wonders for his career, may also remind him of his second divorce. I don't know - wrestling is a strange world, but to most normal human beings, I'd imagine that this would be a bit awkward...especially for Edge's new baby mama, Beth Pheonix.

My biggest gripe is that they show entrances we have seen hundreds of times instead of just having us come back from commercial with the entrants in the ring. For example, we get uncut John Cena and Randy Orton entrances for any match they're in. God forbid it's a tag or a 6-man because that could mean up to 4 separate entrances. Then, two minutes into the match, we're in a commercial break. Is there a single wrestling fan alive that needs to hear/see Cena's, Orton's, or Triple H's entrance more than once an episode of RAW? (I bring them up because, oftentimes, they have multiple segments on the same show) I think the WWE does a great job with their entrance themes, pyro, etc...but I'd trade never seeing Rey Mysterio or The Rhodes Brothers' entrance again if it meant their matches wouldn't be "paused" after the first 90 seconds every week.

All the ones mentioned were fantastic. Here are a few others I thought of... * Jeff Hardy and Ric Flair debuting the same night on the Impact that was live and head-to-head against RAW. We all know how that ended up, but talk about bringing in the "big guns." At the time, Hardy was arguably the number two (or number one) babyface in the US. * Buff Bagwell returning to Nitro, wearing a neckbrace, only to stay heel by (I believe) attacking Rick Steiner (?). I don't recall the exact details, but I remember watching the show with my friends and one of my friends' dad, who lectured us about how Bagwell was a hero and that the neck injury he suffered was super, super serious. When Bagwell ended up ripping off the brace and staying with the nWo, he was pissed. It was awkward. * Paul Bearer turning on The Undertaker at SummerSlam 96'. I was actually there for this event and, at age 12, a big Taker fan. The final minute of this match was something I never expected. It also makes me wonder - did ANYONE predict this finish? I didn't know anything about dirtsheets or the nascent RSPW board (?) at the time, but was there a "buzz" about splitting Bearer and Taker at the time? In retrospect, turning Bearer heel was probably the best thing that ever happened to Taker.

Not sure if this needs its own thread, but... I'm watching an episode of WCW Main Event that seems to have aired live before Bash At The Beach and, after being presented a motorcycle by some very nervous preteen Hulkamaniacs, The Giant just showed up wearing a shirt similar to one worn by Andre the Giant in "The Princess Bride." He throws it into the face of Hogan and shouts "Remember this?!?" before walking off. Then Hogan responds, "I know this shirt...this is Andre's shirt!" while the commentators act shocked. I immediately tried to find this vid on YouTube and DailyMotion, but had no luck. I assume that some have seen the segment I'm talking about (I have it on a bootleg set of all the Main Events from 95' that I ordered [in Simpsons' "Hullabalooza" voice] "possibly while hi-igh"). I'm guessing this was the very first appearance of The Giant in WCW, but what happened next? I know the "big plot points," but did they ever talk about the Princess Bride shirt again or did they just assume the audience understood that? I know they billed him as Andre's son, but for how long? I know he ended up as part of the DoD, but was that from the beginning, or something that happened weeks later? I guess I always assumed he had debuted by running in and destroying Hogan (possibly after a Hulk/Vader or Hulk/Kevin Sullivan match) as that seemed to be how they introduced many of the "monsters" Hogan (or Undertaker, for that matter) would face in the 90s. Anyway - can anyone track down this amazing gem of Wrestlecrappish and help me share it?

Would the people that mind the CM Punk chants today have been telling fans to "give Lex a chance" when the WCW crowds chanted "We Want Flair" in 91'? I'm not saying that this sort of thing is awesome or annoying, I'm just saying, wrestling fans are entitled to chant what they want and if there are a thousand fans in a 20,000 person arena chanting "CM Punk," that's cool. I went to a RAW a year or two ago and HBK was there (this was in the build to WM28 or 29, I believe). I had had a few adult beverages and started shouting "You screwed Bret!" (maybe it was more than a few) and no one joined in. In fact, I got a bunch of stares and angry faces. I shut my mouth pretty quickly. Over time, the Punk chants will die down, especially as the WWE decreases the live sound on their shows and makes it less of a "thing" to hijack the show. Till then, I'm one of those people that would probably enjoy the experience of getting loud and unruly with a thousand of my fellow wrestling fans, cheering for who I want to even when "they" don't want me to. What's more 'merican than that?

My plan is to not purchase the show (*unless* my school calls the night before and closes school Monday - I'm a teacher), BUT as a cold/snow day is pretty much guaranteed for Tuesday in northeast Ohio, I'm contemplating buying the replay in lieu of watching Raw IF Daniel Bryan does win the Rumble and the rest of the card is well-reviewed. My hope is that Bryan is given the #2 spot as a double f-u to both Punk and Bryan (plus, this would play on the fact that the Rumble is all about friends taking out friends), they both last until close to the end, and then we end up with Batista, Sheamus, Wyatt, and Reigns all still in it towards the end. From there, things can go a myriad of ways with or without interference from Lesnar/HHH/Taker, but the last man standing will be Bryan, who will lead the crowd in another big Yes chant (which should also be the end of WMXXX). Honestly, its really silly, but this is Daniel Bryan's year and anything short of him winning the Rumble and title at WrestleMania seems underwhelming to me. Its what the story set up months ago and fairy tales need fairy tale endings. Bryan/Sheamus might be a great match, but I could only compare that sort of booking to Shawn Michaels in 96' wrestling Bret Hart at the Rumble, losing, then facing Ahmed Johnson at WrestleMania 12.

That cameo always made me think. First, I was convinced it wasn't him (that "The Simpsons" had used his likeness, but not his voice) because his line delivery is so *not* the recognizably Canadian, super straightforward Hitman you heard in the WWE. Also, if I remember his lines correctly, they were more Freddie Blassie than Bret Hart. Then, as I saw that episode over and over on syndication, I switched my thinking to be that it definitely was him but that he was probably told to read the lines like a lunatic because his typical delivery wasn't "big" enough.

I definitely agree that there was a rivalry between WCW and WWE fans, especially when one promotion was routinely putting on the better show. For example, in 96', after Hogan's turn, WCW definitely had a lot of momentum (and, to be sure, much of this started as early as that first Nitro) and were the hot brand. I had tickets to that year's SummerSlam and while I remember a pretty good crowd, among my fellow pubescent wrestling-addicted friends, this was pretty uncool. I remember talking up the finish of the Boiler Room Brawl match and several of my friends rolling their eyes at how the biggest storyline in WWE was a manager turning heel on a "tired gimmick wrestler." Compare that to the "Is this real or fake?" buzz of the early nWo and its not hard to pick out which one was going to seem "cool" to a bunch of 13 year olds who considered themselves "smart" because they were on RSPW, joined e-feds, and taped ECW in the wee AM hours. In 99', the opposite was true. My "WCW friends" tried desperately to convince the rest of the gang that WWE sucked, but, at that point, the nWo was really stale and the WWE was crushing them in ratings. The rivalry continued until WCW closed and my "WCW friends" moved onto what was left of ECW and Japan/Mexico tapes. Another thought - I've always viewed one of the key differences between WWF and WCW was that WWF has, dating back decades, always run with a clear, top babyface in the prime spot, while NWA/WCW often put more focus on a heel. This may have also played into the "Hogan hate" of 95' and pre-nWo 96' as a sizeable portion of the audience had grown to feel comfortable cheering the heel (which explains the popularity of guys like Sid, but also of certain guys like Terry Funk who didn't play by the rules often). Could it be that WCW fans catered to a more cynical, "well-read" crowd (and that these cynical fans were willing to give a glance at unknown wrestlers because of their indy reps) than WWE fans, who were "less educated" but dependable for cheering the guys they intended to promote?