C.S.

I thought of that one, but honestly, the WWF sold the hell out of it by giving him such a long reign. Agree or disagree with the choice of champion, at least it meant something and everyone - the fans and the booker(s) - gave a shit. When he lost the title finally, it was a huge moment and it can be argued somewhat that Warrior was "made" because of it (I wouldn't go that far necessarily, but it didn't hurt). Compare that to the past decade or so, where the I-C Title hasn't rmattered.

The answer for me is when WWF bought WCW and a whole second set of belts were added. After that, none of them meant a damn thing. Anyone criticizing Jarrett's I-C reign is guilty of putting on some serious revisionist goggles. At the time, he was definitely considered a rising star - not necessarily a guaranteed future main eventer (especially with that silly country music gimmick), but certainly someone on the level of other recent I-C Champs at the time. PWI and all of those mags pushed him hard too when he was in Memphis. Jarrett's reputation didn't really decline until his botched run with the Horsemen, and even then, his subsequent return to the WWF was still somewhat of an event. Despite Austin's refusal to work with him, he was a hot upper midcard heel during that run. I personally always thought Austin was wrong, BTW. At that time, a Stone Cold/Double J feud could have been very good. His second WCW run and TNA were disasters that exposed his limitations badly, but before that, he was a really effective heel in the months leading up to the Chyna feud.

A great tag team. The only thing that might hurt them on people's lists is that they were never the team in the WWE. Tt's a shame they were never awarded the belts, because they should have been (ignoring the unfortunate rope break match with The Hart Foundation, of course). I wonder if they would have fared better in WCW? Obviously, the stars aligned for at least Shawn in the WWF, so I know he wouldn't want to change anything. But it is interesting to wonder "what if?" about The Rockers and WCW.

I could see someone thinking that Jannetty was the better of the two during The Rockers - not the argument I'm making, mind you - but that's about it. Even if you hate Shawn, you cannot realistically see Jannetty's post-Rocker tenure as anything other than one giant missed opportunity after another.

I've never loved Davey, but I have a feeling if I rewatched a lot of his stuff, I'd end up considering him an underrated talent - sort of like I look at Lex Luger now in hindsight.

NJPW isn't the only offender. Almost every big WWE match, especially those at WrestleMania, have that bullshit with wrestlers kicking out of finishers. It's one of the trends I can't stand, because it's no longer exciting and it feels like an overdone, worn out cliche at this point.

Something to consider: If Flair was still booked as dominantly in the late '90s WCW and early '00s WWE instead of as an aging midcarder, would he still be seen as someone in decline who overstayed his welcome? The pendulum might have swung the other way, with people being resentful that he was still being pushed so hard at his age. If anything, I think bad booking and being misused - as odd as this sounds - endeared Flair to fans more. We kinda saw the same thing with Bryan and Punk, in a way. Is there any scenario where Flair comes out smelling like roses if he doesn't retire in the late-90s (or whatever you think his dropping off point was) like maybe he should have?

No need to be so rude. Just because you don't like the comparison doesn't negate the fact that it's a perfectly valid one. Of course there are inherent differences between acting and wrestling, but Brando's name was brought up elsewhere in this thread and there are definitely similarities worth discussing. One of the major points of argument is whether Flair's later work should be held against him. Looking to a similar situation in another industry is perfectly reasonable. As for your argument that Flair has lots and lots of matches compared to the amount of movies Brando has made, well, so does Koko B. Ware. What's your point? I don't think this particular tangent is taking anything away from the great stuff Loss is posting. This isn't the "let's respond to Loss" thread - it's the Ric Flair thread, and that's going to encompass multiple discussions that don't include only you or Loss. I mean no disrespect whatsoever toward Loss, BTW...I'm just pointing out what should be obvious in any kind of message board setting. This thread is eight pages already. I think you can live with a very small handful of posts, JVK, that don't adhere to your exact wishes.

At the risk of "Ringwalding" this thread, I think Brando is an absolutely perfect example. Both Brando and Flair were placed on a pedestal as the "GOAT" throughout their careers. Even though Brando did a lot of bad movies and bad work, he's worshiped for his iconic performances in Godfather, etc. In Flair's case, the decline happened at the end instead of between good projects like it did for Brando, but the end result is the same: People talk about Brando with a reverence that most other actors don't receive, for whatever reason, and the same is true for Flair. What's wrong with The Score? It's not The Godfather, but it's fun movie with fine performances. Brando doesn't "wow" in it, but he doesn't embarass himself either - and it's really De Niro's (and Norton's) movie anyway. Speaking of which... Brando has a much smaller body of work than De Niro. The great Brando movies and performances are truly great, but the rest of the crap is scattered throughout his career and make up only a few movies/roles overall. De Niro has two long decades of red hot garbage under his belt, with very few classics (Silver Linings Playbook and Limitless were both very good though). Flair's decline, like Brando's bad movies, is but a mere blip compared to the rest of his career and all the classics he had throughout. Flair's downswing lasted a good few years, but that's still pretty short, relatively speaking. But Flair's best, like Brando's, is really incredible - on a level that most others can only dream of.

I don't watch enough of the B shows either to be able to make an informed assessment about Titus's ring skills, but one thing I do know is that he has star quality. They never should have broken up The Prime Time Players. I don't care how Titus and Darren Young were as "workers" - they had miles more charisma than any other tag team on the roster then or now. Unfortunately, they didn't have the push to go along with it. I think they would've done much better in the Attitude Era. Either way, I hope they get back together after Young returns. Their split was dumb and pointless anyway, and it went nowhere and did nothing for either of them.

I bet subscriptions dropped like a rock after the first six months were up. I let mine lapse. I'll be back for Rumble, but nothing about NOC made me want to fork over another $9.99* a month *with a six-month committment.

ECW One Night Stand was one of my first thoughts too. That show was an absolute blast. My pick has to be Royal Rumble '92. Still the greatest Rumble ever (IMO) and another very good undercard match between The New Foundation (shame they didn't last) and The Orient Express. I also really dug Survivor Series '92 - I don't remember it having one bad match - but I realize that may be (and probably is) childhood nostalgia talking. I admittedly haven't seen it since. I stand by RR '92 though.

Yeah, this was never going to happen. I don't know why people were so adamant that it would. I'd really love to be wrong, but I don't think I am. BTW, I don't think this counts as an official cash-in for Rollins. If it does and he wasted it, and that's the finish, holy shit. But I really don't think so.

Jericho's presence is no longer exciting, but that's the WWE's fault entirely. They've booked him to no longer matter. A boring, dead-end feud with Orton doesn't help. I hope Jericho wins, even though this is supposed to be his last night.

Jericho has been booked into oblivion, and Orton has been the stalest character in the company for years. Who in their right mind thought we wanted to see this match?! Jericho must've picked it himself - I bet he likes working with Orton - because no fan actually gives a flying frog's shit about it.

To add to what we've been saying about the video game, this month's Game Informer reveals that the MyCareer mode will take your wrestler through the Performance Center, NXT, and beyond, so I'm guessing that is what the "big surprise" is. Why Meltzer couldn't just come out and say that is beyond me. These two posters on Wrestling Inc. hit the nail on the head: I mean, really.

If he knows the surprise, why can't he just reveal it? I hate when he's vague or coy about something, and he does that all the time. My guess (probably wrong) is that it's something to do with the video game. Maybe a "Next Generation" mode? If that means the NXT arena and wrestlers, that would excite me.

Took me a minute to recognize the JTS acronym as "jump the shark," because - to be honest - I've never really looked at wrestling in those terms. Almost every episode of Raw in its long history has had one or more embarrassing moments. That's wrestling.

Yeah, total game changer. The first wrestler I've ever seen botch a pin. http://www.cagesideseats.com/wwe-raw/2014/9/16/6183313/gif-cameron-pinfall-ref-wwe-raw

Pretty much my opinion as well. The piece feels very "cluttered."

I don't know if this is his greatest match, but it's certainly my favorite: The Enforcers (Arn Anderson and Larry Zbyszko) vs. Dustin Rhodes and the returning Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat at Clash of the Champions XVII on November 19, 1991.

I didn't know Clawmaster, but a death that young is always very sad. Greg Oliver wrote a great piece about him on Slam Wresting. http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/MatMatters/2014/09/15/21941926.html

I found this piece monotonous and poorly formatted...a slog to get through. Is it just me or my mood today? Edit: Maybe I'm being unfair and letting my distaste for TNA color my opinion. It's obviously well-researched, with firsthand quotes (a rarity for internet wrestling pieces), but I just want all of these people to go away!

If you mean the house show I attended, it was after Summer of Punk, so Cena and Miz weren't still feuding, per se. Was still cool in a way to see "the WrestleMania main event" though.

Certainly better than the one I went to a few years ago, which featured Cena vs. Miz in a street fight, Punk vs. Alberto, and a VERY disappointing match between Dolph Ziggler and Evan Bourne that seemed a half-step off (think this was when Bourne was between Wellness suspensions). I remember Drew McIntyre impressing me with his hard work and enthusiasm despite losing. The thing is, I was barely following wrestling at that point (the Summer of Punk got me back, and then lost me again with a series of increasingly insane booking moves), and yet I was still able to predict every single thing that happened. The show was a cool experience, but everything felt rote and stale - which should not ever be the case for a lapsed fan, as I was at the time. I can agree with this. Always fun to see the kids and families just having a good time. That was definitely the case at the show I went to.