Downend2005

You’ve now managed to squeeze in Saudi Arabia, Impact and Japan into a WWE thread, that’s a full house! All joking aside, WWE ‘promoted’ Alundra Blayze vs Bull Nakano in 1994, way before TNA ever existed. The WWF had a women’s champion and women’s tag team champions decades before TNA ever existed, and way before the pillowfights, lumberjill matches that they themselves promoted. The Jumping bomb angels vs The Glamour Girls produced some great matches in 1987, for example. Now of course thats not to say that everything the WWE produced back then was excellent, because that’s not true, but serious wrestling doesn’t necessarily equal ‘good’ wrestling, like what you are suggesting with Gail vs Kong. Now it’s easy to dismiss that and say that both of those examples that I gave feature Japanese talent, but they WERE promoted by WWE. And WWE are now regularly promoting Women as the main event segment on tv and on PPV, their most popular performer is a woman, their biggest name is a woman, and women will almost definitely be main eventing wrestlemania. Impact, by comparison have some good to great women wrestlers, but none of whom are promoted as the main attraction. Did TNA have women ever main event a show despite them drawing their biggest ratings? What about Impact? If anything, based on how and who they promote, it is them who are currently ‘behind the times’.

A TNA Women’s Tag Team Championship with the longest reigning champions being ODB... and Eric Young. And let’s not forget ODB and Cody Deaner feuding over who was the real knockouts champion. Or the Beautiful People having mud matches, or the lockbox challenge with one competitor being forced to perform a striptease for that matter. And all of that happened after 2007, so let’s not hold TNA/Impact to some higher standard of treating their women’s division better just because Gail Kim and Awesome Kong had a good series of matches and they didn’t have a deal with Saudi Arabia. And is the term ‘knockout’ any better than ‘diva’?

Now this I’m interested in. What do you mean by the right fans? Im especially interested as you go on to say that the people that maybe know the most actually have a minimal online presence. What’s the benefit of them knowing what they know then? Not taking shots at you or piling on. I’m genuinely curious.

But how can WWE throw stuff in your face if you’ve boycotted it and don’t watch it? Anyways back on topic, the one big question I have is how will success be measured? I’m sure that Double or Nothing will do very well, as the same group of people that supported All In will want to make sure that this is a success. But after that?

Maybe this is being pedantic of me or I’m overlooking your general point, but just because Smackdown produces a good show now doesn’t mean that it’s been (or can be) consistently good all year, so nothing has really been proven. The Owens/Zayn vs Shane feud wasn’t all that well received for example, and that dominated television at the start of the year. 2017 gave us Jinder Mahal as WWE Champion. And going even further back, the initial period on Smackdown after the brand split was good stuff, but it went to shit quickly after the first superstar shakeup. And before that, Smackdown was an absolute afterthought. I’ll give you that this year, Smackdown has produced far better and more compelling television than Raw on a more consistent basis, absolutely. To be say that Smackdown is proving its possible to have a good show that runs 52 weeks per year isn’t strictly true though.

I fail to see how suggesting that you watch a match that you ‘would have loved’ is somehow deemed unnecessary, but I guess that’s neither here nor there, so I’ll drop it. To keep this on topic, again I’d suggest you watch the match, especially if it’s already the sort of thing that you feel you might enjoy. It’s a really good match, but the post match beat down is excellent.

I think everyone knows your position on WWE by now. Is it really necessary to jump in and post that? I’m not taking a shot at you, but if you think you would have loved the match, just watch the match.

This maybe a controversial one, but I’ll say it. WWE Evolution. Much like the women’s Royal Rumble match, in my opinion it was hugely overrated, and the longer it went on the more annoyed I became by how it was presented. The video packages and talking heads throughout the show became increasingly insufferable, to the point where for me it had the opposite effect of what they were trying to achieve. The whole show was an exercise in engineering good PR after the backlash against the Saudi show. The point was then hammered home when Stephanie McMahon (sorry, all of the women) came out at the end of the show to take in their applause. Rather than being brave enough to have the show be judged on its own merits, forcing the crowd to give them a standing ovation and tell them how good and progressive they are just reeked of desperation. Outside of the video packages and the curtain call, WWE could barely be bothered. A ‘stripped back’ set and an uninspiring card gave this nothing more than a lazy house show vibe. Only one match was actually any good. The six woman tag has probably happened on Raw every week since the show. Nikki Bella comes back to main event (because of course she does) and then disappears again. And nothing quite says ‘Evolution’ than the retired Trish and Lita going over the current main roster performers in the opening match. The whole thing was lazy, predictable and safe and encapsulated WWE in 2018 in a nutshell. This actually could have been something special and interesting if they put some thought and care into it. Instead nothing of any consequence happened on the show, nothing was progressed and it’s almost as if it never happened. It was simply an exhibition, a make good to the women, and nothing would have changed if the show didn’t exist. Plus G probably thinks this is the greatest show of all time, so that’s reason enough to put it in.

Fantasy booking here, but I think the most obvious way to have gone once Becky was out was to have Ronda demand to be put in the survivors match as part of team Raw. It could easily be explained away as now she can’t get her hands on Becky, she wants all of the Smackdown women to pay for their attack. That would have made infinitely more sense than Becky just choosing Charlotte to replace her. All it would have taken was one promo with Alexa visiting SmackDown to inform their women that shit just got real. That way, you keep the Ronda-Charlotte match in your back pocket for later rather than blowing it with no build, and you also get to gauge the reception to any interaction they have and tease a future match between the two.

Much like the women’s Royal Rumble match, I thought this show was actually overrated. The video vignettes throughout the show became increasingly insufferable. WWE has a horrible tendency to lay it on really thick. Show, don’t tell. The curtain call was especially ridiculous, and an excuse just to get Stephanie McMahon onscreen. I did enjoy Ronda and Becky clinking title belts in slow mo too. But WWE show how tone deaf they are by airing a crown jewel promo before the main event. There weren’t any poor matches per se (although the tag opener wasn’t far off), but for what was supposed to be a monumental, trailblazing, groundbreaking (insert superlative here) show, it felt very much like a house show and a wasted opportunity. The stripped back aesthetic probably added to that feel. Nothing of any consequence really happened, it felt complacent, it felt safe. There were a lot of noticeable flubs which I’m sure will make it into the next edition of botchamania. Mike Chioda entered an all time terrible refereeing performance in the Last Woman Standing match. WWE editing boos for Becky into the video package before the LWS was just lame. The crowd actually cheering for Becky and booing Charlotte despite that was great though. The match itself was excellent, but WWE insisting on portraying Becky as the heel when the crowd is flat out rejecting it at every turn is increasingly frustrating. Becky is an absolute star, and was the best performer on the show. Nikki Bella vs Ronda Rousey should have gone about 2 minutes tops.

But but but, this isn’t about money, I thought this was an opportunity that could ‘lead to change’

WWE’s statement on the matter... “WWE has operated in the Middle East for nearly 20 years and has developed a sizable and dedicated fan base. Considering the heinous crime committed at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, the Company faced a very difficult decision as it relates to its event scheduled for November 2 in Riyadh. Similar to other U.S.-based companies who plan to continue operations in Saudi Arabia, the Company has decided to uphold its contractual obligations to the General Sports Authority and stage the event. Full year 2018 guidance is predicated on the staging of the Riyadh event as scheduled.”

Toni Storm vs Meiko Satomura was absolutely fantastic, easily Storms best showing. When Toni turns down the ham, she can be awesome. Loved how this match built and built to the finish. Rhea Ripley will be a huge huge star, she looked great in a match that she wasn’t even supposed to have. Io Shirai looked the best she has all tournament, and I actually think I preferred her working from underneath. Also, can someone please explain the mask Io wears during her entrance? Being unfamiliar with Joshi I don’t understand it’s significance, if there is any. Beth Phoenix and Renee Young screaming ‘OH!’ every five seconds was increasingly annoying, but it didn’t detract from the sheer quality of the matches. A really good hour of wrestling.

She was clearly seriously hurt on the initial dive, but my best guess is that her running the ropes and putting weight on an already injured leg afterwards compounded the injuries further. She instantly signals to the referee to stop the match after taking the dropkick.

Just watching the quarter finals... Meiko vs Lacey Lane was Lacey’s best match yet, although that almost goes without saying. Meiko threw some awesome kicks throughout the match. The finish coming out of nowhere did hurt it a little bit. Io vs Deonna was good, but nobody in that crowd thought Deonna had any realistic chance of winning. Io whiffed on the moonsault for the third match running too, which kind of undermines her ‘genius of the sky’ nickname. This one was so noticeable that even the commentary made reference to it. Tegan vs Rhea was absolutely heartbreaking to watch. I’ve never seen a crowd go so silent instantly. The YouTube video of her apologising to Triple H for getting injured was so sad to watch as well. Props to Rhea for holding it together in difficult circumstances. Im getting a huge Pete Dunne vibe from her in terms of her character work. I want to like Toni Storm, but I do find her a little bit hammy at times. Toni vs Mia Yim was fine, and I really like that Mia’s hand injury from the first round ultimately proved to be her undoing, but I actually think both women had better matches in the second round.

Maybe he’s just towing the company line in preparation for the DX vs NWO ‘dream match’ in the main event at Greatest Royal Rumble 2 next year...

Nash goes on to say when asked that WWE should honour its contract as “its entertainment not a UN Summit”

That Michinoku Driver from the top rope was mental.

It was no disqualification, so reaching the ropes wouldn’t have forced the break. They even said as much on commentary. Graves said ‘the ropes won’t help Joe’ The Bellas are so bad, Brie especially. They just come across as so hammy and disingenuous. I like the Riott Squad and the match was fine, but Liv tagging in to specifically work-kick Brie in the face was a little lame. Rondas hot tag and double armbar finish was great, but I’m amazed they didn’t do anything to set up evolution. I thought they were going that way when the Bellas started out just tagging each other. Pulling for Buddy Murphy here, especially now they keep referencing Cedrics winning streak.

Really enjoyed the latest episode with three good to great matches out of four, can’t argue with that. Toni vs Hiroyo was really good stuff. I think Toni would get over huge in NXT proper rather than being on the UK brand. I really liked Kacy Catanzaro vs Rhea Ripley. What surprised me though was WWE not editing out Kacys first flub on her springboard dropkick. Other than that, I thought she looked great. The DDT and Ripleys sell of it was mental. And Rhea was good in her bully role. She definitely projects bigger and takes her time between moves on offense and it makes her stand out. This was really fun. Lacey Lane vs Taynara Conti was mercifully brief. Lacey’s entrance, look and style is basically her cosplaying as Ember Moon’s little sister. She really isn’t that good either. It’s a shame she gets a match with Meiko, when others would have made for more interesting opponents. Meiko vs Mercedes was excellent. The post match embrace felt genuine and made for a nice moment, I’m glad that made it to tv. Mercedes should absolutely be on WWEs radar as a trainer at the PC.

I’m not a Twitter user, but I did take a look at her twitter profile. Unless I’m missing something obvious, I didn’t see where she has explained that. I’m obviously happy to be corrected though. And in any case, if it’s such an integral part of her presentation, why didn’t her intro video and/or the commentary reference it at all? I even rewatched the match to see if I missed anything. When WWE are so keen on pushing hashtags, soundbites and buzzwords, surely it could and should have been made more explicit if it was part of her act. After all, they made reference to her Black Belt and Judo credentials at every opportunity.

I though Io vs Xia was the best match of the episode by far. Io was presented as the best in the world, the one to beat, and Xia was booked as the clear underdog. Loved her interaction with Robbie Brookside during her entrance too. Xia being hopelessly overmatched but going down swinging was such a simple story and it played out exactly as it should have done. Io’s theme was catchy too! I also came away reasonably impressed with Taynara Conti, even if her presentation was a little bit messy. She worked the match as a vicious heel, then after winning breaks down in tears and becomes endearing. It was a little confused. As for Jessie Elaban, I don’t think she came across well at all. Her pre match vignette described everything that she wasn’t, instead calling herself ‘glumsy’ (goofy and clumsy). I don’t think she particularly showcased her gimmick and I don’t think she would translate to tv well. Round 1 was decent overall, three stand out matches (Io vs Xia, Toni vs Jinny and Meiko vs Killer Kelly), Rhea Ripley and Kacy Catanzaro looking like future stars, and nobody being awful outside of Zeuxis and Kavita Devi, but now I’m looking forward to the tournament picking up some steam going into round 2.

This is the first time I’ve actually watched this. I actually really liked the opening section... Bayley and Sonya being almost tentative really added to the fact that this was unfamiliar territory for the women. I really liked the sense of struggle over the first cage spot in particular. Bayley going on the offensive when Mandy Rose entered was fun, before Sonya absolutely crushed Bayley with a spear which looked awesome. I think Sonya and Mandy could have made more of their 2 on 1 advantage though, I’d have liked to have seen them both covering Bayley at the same time for example, something like that could have really put over their numerical advantage. Bayley preventing Sonya from saving Mandy from the submission was a nice spot to eliminate Absolutions numbers advantage. Mickie James looked as good as I’ve seen her since her return. Sasha turning on Bayley for the second time in two months to give Alexa an opening was actually very well done, and Alexa rolling up Bayley to eliminate her was perfectly in keeping with her character. Sasha completely no selling the twisted bliss off the top of the pod near the finish didn’t work for me though. Overall this was a good chamber match, glad I watched it.

Charlotte looks like an absolute megastar with her entrance, and based on this and her previous WM entrances, she would certainly look the part main eventing WM 35. Asuka catching Charlotte in the triangle off the moonsault was a fantastic spot, but it came far too early in the match, it would have been off the charts if it was part of the finishing stretch. There were some nutty bumps (the suplex from the apron, the Spanish fly) but the match itself was good without ever threatening to be great, and it didn’t really build to an exciting finishing stretch. This was the absolute wrong finish too, as I’ve said elsewhere on the forums, I’d have gone with the Bret Hart/Roddy Piper WM8 finish with Charlotte reversing the Asuka lock after a long period of struggle into a flash pin. They actually did it during the match to little reaction, but the hold was barely applied before Charlotte countered. I still don’t think Asuka has recovered from losing via submission, especially after failing to submit Charlotte on multiple occasions and then tapping herself so quickly.

Decided to give this a rewatch... this is absolutely not an all time rumble, it’s not even the best rumble on the show. Right off the bat, ”Stephanie McMahon is a trailblazer, but she won’t tell you so” is a contender for the biggest laugh out loud line in wrestling history. Sasha and Becky start with a nice exchange, but the crowd is dead/burnt out until Lita enters at 5. Lita was never a great or even particularly good worker, but she looks terrible here. Charlotte giggling at Kairi Sanes entrance is great. “She loves boating hence her yacht persona”is another great line. Lita almost kills herself on a moonsault to cheers of ‘you still got it’ before being eliminated. Dana Brooke and her 15 poses enters as number 8 and eliminates Kairi Sane in an odd choice. Torrie Wilson enters at 9 and gets another big pop. Torrie gets serious air with a drop kick which ends up somewhere around Becky Lynchs stomach. Molly Holly gets a decent reaction and looks great, far better than Lita and Torrie. Lana comes in at 13 and gets the biggest pop so far, namely ‘Rusev Day’, before having a hair pulling catfight with Liv Morgan. Michelle McCool comes in at 14 to chants of Undertaker, before squashing everybody, because of course she does. Vickie Guerrero comes in and overacts as she was want to do, and this comedy spot falls flat as she’s dumped immediately. Her hitting Carmella with her Money in the Bank briefcase was great though, and actually got a better reaction. Carmella sells the briefcase shot as death when it barely touched her was hilarious. Becky gets eliminated after 30 minutes out of nowhere. Nia Jax enters at number 22 and starts clearing the ring. This is the first time in the entire match we have something approaching a story. The Naomi Kofi spot was cute but was almost spoiled by Maria Menounous videoing it on her phone. I would have loved for Alexa Bliss to whip the chair away from Naomi to eliminate her though, would have been a great heel move. Ember Moon comes in selling her arm from the previous night, bonus points for that. The Beth Phoenix/Nia gets the ‘this is awesome’ treatment, and was easily the best part of the match. Nia has actually been the standout in this match so far. Asuka enters at 25 and the mood changes instantly. Carmella running from Asukas kick was great. The Asuka/Ember stand-off was fun and got a great response. Nikki Bella throws a great forearm, but outside of that, she’s awful. She also gets the ‘John Cena suuuuuckkks’ treatment. Brie Bellas music is the worst theme in wrestling, and her benefitting from the ‘yes’ chants is annoying as fuck. Bayley enters at 29 and nobody gives a shit. Trish then enters at 30 and has a fun spot with Sasha Banks, and a genuinely fun callback with Mickie James. Nia is eliminated and it’s bullshit. She should have been in the final two with Asuka and reran the Benoit/Big Show finish from 2004. With Nia facing Alexa Bliss that year, it at least would have made for a better finish, but instead, we get the Bellas, because of course we do. From that point, nobody believed Asuka was losing, which hurt the match. This was actually quite a boring rumble with the result never in doubt. Nia Jax was the clear stand out, but Asuka, Carmella, Beth Phoenix and Trish were fun too.