dedhemingway

My 'favorite' match of all-time is easy, but kinda cheap. At one of the WrestleReunions, PWG held a show that featured a legends battle royal that ended with Terry Funk and Roddy Piper having a bloody brawl. Getting to see two of my favorite guys ever do that live, makes it easily my favorite match. If you made me pick something I wasn't there live for, it would change based on my mood and when you ask, but right now I'd probably say HBK/Mankind from Mind Games '96. Edit: I think I said Magnum/Tully was my favorite earlier, which kinda proves my mercurial tastes.

I'm not really a regular around here, mostly because my interest in wrestling waxes and wanes in a cycle that even I don't understand, but I feel like, if you're even a somewhat regular poster (and you're well beyond that) on PWO you've watched enough wrestling to have your opinion respected on the subject. It's not rocket appliances... Of course, the more content you've seen, the better idea of where a story is going you'll have, but as long as you can accept being corrected if you're wrong, criticize away. I feel there is a big difference between 'best' and 'greatest', but that may be that I'm a jock at heart, college and pro football, and being the 'greatest' requires accolades, while being the 'best' is simply based on talent. Like, Bo Jackson is my pick for the 'best' runningback of all time, he's everything you could ever want from the position, 'better' than Jim Brown, Emmitt Smith, or Barry Sanders, but I'd never argue he was the greatest. Hulk Hogan is in the argument for greatest wrestler of all time, but I wouldn't call him the 'best'. I admit, it gets muddied with matches, because they're events, not individuals, but I think it still applies. You can have the 'best' match anywhere, from Arena Mexico to a guard armory in Florida, but the 'greatest' matches are the best big ones, titles on the line, biggest events, the total package. Tl;dr: 'Best' is a measure of talent in a vacuum. Great requires a convergence of factors.

I think that a lot of this feels more like 'best' match ever, and a lot less like 'greatest'. Then again, I really couldn't care less about 95% of stuff that happens in Japan, so I'm biased.

Rock vs Hulk Hogan at WrestleMania X8. You will never convince me that there is a better example of the drama and pageantry of professional wrestling than this match. They don't do a bunch of moves, but they play everything perfectly. It is easily the 'greatest' match of all-time. Magnum/Tully 'I Quit' is second, and in my preferred style, but Rock/Hogan is... transcendent, it's more than a match, it's a moment.

The issue isn't being stuck in the past as much as so many of the moves that are being used as transitions feel much more impactful than the finishers they are being replaced with. A regular old DDT looks much more vicious than the 300 different Complete Shot variations we see every week. Okada vs. Omega had a top rope dragon suplex, but ended with a short arm clothesline. The issue is that the hierarchy is completely out of whack when the moves that get the near falls are much more violent than the ones that get the pinfalls. That's a good point, and I intuitively want to agree but at the same time, how violent was Hogan's leg drop or Warrior's splash compared to their other moves? The people's elbow certainly wasn't a killer impactful move, and arguably the rock bottom wasn't the most violent looking Rock move either. Rock Bottom was the finisher, and I can totally believe it driving the air out of you long enough to get a 3. People's Elbow was, originally, a coup de grace, and could be used for nearfalls, but it kinda lost that feel later on.

It was definitely tone deaf, and I could see how certain segments of fans see it as insulting to their intelligence. I wouldn't have done it, but I think Snuka's death was more personal for a lot of the long time guys in WWE, including Vince, than many others, and maybe sentimentality played into it. Personally, it's just not something I'm too prone to care much about. Lots of famous people do horrible things yet get applauded in their industries. Short of convictions, it's hard to really draw a line on punishments/black balling, and the court of public opinion is notoriously fickle. Just murky waters all around.

I don't think how 'good' a match is, or even how well it drew, are necessary for it to be an important match. They can be part of it, certainly, but it's possible for a match to be important without it. I saw Foley/Taker in HIAC mentioned. How about the match that inspired Foley? Snuka/Muraco in the cage. Are we getting too reductive at that point? I'd also argue for Superstar/Bruno in '77, which showed that a guy who was a lesser wrestler, but a better showman, could thrive in NY, leading to Hogan.

Does Douglas/Scorpio, with Douglas throwing down the NWA title count, or would the importance be on the promo after?

Ratings are fine as a way to quickly say 'I liked this match more than this match', but assigning them more value than that is taking it strangely too far. I may be really stoned and on a radicalism kick, but it's almost a tribalism, you're planting your fandom flag in the ground depending on who's ratings you agree on. As far as a 6th star goes, if a match does something unique, that you never considered in your system, then sure, but paradigm shifts are pretty rare.

Not to disparage those who are more inclined towards ranking matches, but I've always felt it held little value to me personally. I either enjoy a match, or I don't. Trying to distill an art down into numbers is the antithesis of my entire view on it.

No one would ever hire a handsome, built, articulate Harvard graduate with a law degree and a Grammy (Or was it an Oscar?) winning wife. Yeah, that's not the type of successful, driven person you want in your company, it must be because they need more black dudes!

So that makes it okay to run tasteless body-shaming angles? Gotcha. I can't speak to Elizabeth's character, but who's to say Randy didn't have good reasons for his "protectiveness"? BTW, it irritates me that people blame Lex Luger for her death (and he even blames himself). She was a big girl. He didn't hold a gun to her head and force those drugs into her system. It's a tragic shame and waste what happened to her, but it was her fault, not Lex's. As someone who has been in similar, though not as tragic, situations, it's not about forcing it down their throats. Even introducing people to drugs, then seeing the negative effect on their life can make you feel guilty about it.

Seeing this come to fruition has made me a little sad that I didn't submit a ballot. For the best, too much happened for me to give it the go it truly deserved. Excited for the results (and stats!) though.

yeah, basically this. the gym shorts in particular are the turn-off for me, makes him seem like some random dude at your local gym's pickup basketball game. and ya, New Day is one of those acts that shows a clear generational divide. they're *easily* the biggest reason my wrestling-watching friends still tune into RAW at all. offbeat shenanigans are the cool thing these days yo~ EDIT: i think the appeal of these guys (and Ambrose, et al.) may tie into something larger. specifically, whether you got into wrestling before it became purely a nerd fandom. we have a whole generation now who has never experienced it as anything but that, with Jimmy Redman probably being this board's most prolific example. basically, to a lot of people, wrestling is more Star Trek or Doctor Who than the NFL, and that means goofier or nerdier guys will have a lot more appeal. i think of anarchistxx's post in one of the recent WWE threads, where they kept going on about how Reigns comes off as a real star and the other guys are indie geeks. a crucial point that misses is that the crowd themselves are geeks nowadays; of course they'll connect a lot more with people they see as "one of us"! i will once again go back to Cody Rhodes saying "the fans don't want to root for a Clark Gable anymore, they want to root for a Seth Rogen". most people here were raised on Clark Gables and John Waynes, but that shit is passe to twentysomethings. that's really at the heart of these kinds of arguments, i think. I'm a 33 year old American male who got into wrestling as a child in the late-80s, would put Terry Funk at #1 on my hypothetical GOAT list, and Owens, Ambrose, and Big E are probably my favorite acts in the company right now. For Owens, at least, it's because I watched his climb from PWG to here, have always found his trash talking on point, and thus have a connection to him. I know I'm atypical, though. I'm a raver, college football is my favorite sport, Hunter S. Thompson is my favorite writer, Southland Tales my favorite film, and on and on. I'm a jumble of contradictions, so my opinion on things really counts for little. I do think that if you're going to argue that the majority of the possible fanbase would find Kevin Owens a 'fat geek', you're wrong. All it takes is a look at popular culture to see that geek is chic.

I think Sabu would be the perfect example of this. It's quite clear he's charismatic, but never talked. Tajiri, in the US, at least, would be another example.

The original DX run fell in my wrestling dark era, which, strangely, was during my HS years and a bit after. I was huge into WWF up until about 1996 when I started playing HS football and wrestling, which took up a ton of my time, and I didn't really start watching again until nearly the brand split (in fact, I think the first RAW when I came back and started following it heavy was the 'Hogan runs Rock over in a Semi' episode), so, going back, I don't really enjoy DX that much, and I might be the biggest HHH fan here (I've loved him ever since the 'Wouldn't wear a cowboy hat to a dog show' promo). The best thing to come out of their reunion was the Survivor Series where they teamed with the Hardys and CM Punk and swept, where it started off with HBK dropping Mike Knox (who I remembered from UPW...) with a SCM, pinning him, and then asking if he was even in the match. I guess I never really had a use for DX. I like each member enough individually, HHH is in my top ten favorites (although not top ten best), HBK is, well, HBK, Waltman is great, Dogg has amazing charisma, Gunn is whatever, but as a group...I dunno, give me The Enterprise from XPW. Kaos, GQ Money, and Veronica Caine did the raunchy sexual stuff way better.

So... anybody who doesn't speak English is just completely handicapped? There is no way Jumbo or Liger or Kawada could be anywhere near the top 50. Nor could Negro Casas, El Hijo del Santo or Satanico. That statement can just as easily be flipped the other way. Why should American workers, particularly WWF/E workers, have practically half of their work disregarded simply because Japan and Mexico don't tend to have as many promos? Are any of those names incapable of cutting a promo, or is it simply the fact that you don't understand them (and I don't either, for that matter)? Do you believe it's impossible, without knowing the language, to put in the work to see how the audiences reacted to any promos these guys did cut? Can you not judge, from the reaction of the crowds, possibly from reviews by native speakers, how these workers were perceived as interviews? At the end of the day, each of the styles has it's strengths and weaknesses, and, while trying to find a 'fair' or 'equal' way to judge them may seem to a laudable goal to some, I don't really see it that way. Is it really 'fair' to focus on in-ring wrestling action when that is more heavily emphasized in Japan than in the US or Mexico? If you prize longevity of careers, would that not tend to favor lucha, with it's 'safer' style? Each wrestler should be judged on their merits and abilities within the style they worked, which, yes, makes comparisons across styles difficult, but not impossible. I understand that many of you would like this list, and the process, to be as clinical as possible, but, without bringing back the 'wrestling as art' debate, which I know has been done again and again on this board, I honestly don't view that to be a 'good' thing. Sure, you can take the emotion out of it and judge it by clinical standards all you want, but I feel like you're losing the entire point of wrestling at that point. Simply put, if you can't convey the emotion that is inherent in GREAT wrestling, both in your actions and in your words, then, in my opinion, you cannot be the 'GREATEST WRESTLER EVER'. Those workers are not handicapped, we simply need to put in the extra work needed to view them fairly. i disagree with the argument that promos shouldn't be part of that baseline, and assert that, by removing promo ability from the equation, you are unfairly handicapping workers who spent the majority of their careers in promo heavy American promotions. In fact, by doing so, you're leaning the other way, giving unfair advantage to more in-ring intensive styles. Like I said before, I just can't divorce the two, personally. Professional Wrestling is not just what happens bell to bell, in the ring. It's the storytelling that leads up to that, the ability to convey the emotion, to sell the struggle, to reach out to the fans. In some countries and styles that is done verbally, in others, it is through body language and actions, but both are equally important in terms of being a 'GREAT' wrestler. A wrestler can be technically perfect in the ring, but if he can't make you care, then he doesn't belong on a list. I really enjoy these kinds of discussions, and I don't want anyone to think I'm belittling their position or anything. I respect where you guys are coming from, it's just a position I honestly just don't 'get'.

While I'm still uncertain if I'm going to be joining in with a list, due to a multitude of real life issues that have kept me from doing the research needed, I wanted to comment here because I honestly do not understand the mentality that 'all that matters is in-ring'. Promos are such an integral part of professional wrestling that to act as if the 'Greatest Wrestler Ever' could be a mute is the same as saying that the greatest peanut butter and jelly sandwich of all time could lack jelly. If it was a legitimate athletic contest, I could see this point of view, but it's not, it's entertainment, it's spectacle, and being able to have a crowd in the palm of your hand with your words is just as important as being able to do it with your actions. For myself, I simply cannot divorce the two halves from the whole, and, like I've said, I don't understand anyone that can. It's like sex without foreplay. No offense, I just don't understand it at all, and, honestly, I'm not sure it could even be explained to me, it's a completely foreign concept. I think it also goes back to what I want from my professional wrestling, which is pageantry and spectacle, stories and great matches.

Sunny. I'm pretty sure that she was my first crush, so, yeah. Plus, Candido was better than Mero or Brock (yeah, I said it), so she gets points for that.

I'd just like to add that, while I understand that a lot of you guys divorce the in-ring action from the talking, or the character, I don't understand WHY you do it. It's clear, to me, that it's all part of one package. Wrestling in a vacuum would be meaningless. The Sonnen comparison doesn't really hold up, because, while his talking is a bonus in terms of getting eyes on the fight, at the end of the day what matters is whether he wins. In pro wrestling, the talking is as important at the in-ring stuff.

So, I hate to do this, but I'm going to have to drop out. As evidenced by my lack of shows, I'm really struggling to find time to write anything for this. When it started, I was pretty much settled in one place, since then, I've had to move, picked up more hours at work, and I'm looking towards returning to school. That's along with my social life taking off since moving, which I'm almost always going to pick over staying at home and writing. I was really hyped to take part in this, and, if things settle down, I might be back, but as it stands, I'm just not able to give it the attention it deserves.

Bruiser Costa

I owe all of you guys an apology. Between work and social engagements, I've been absolutely swamped the last few weeks. No excuses, but, at the end of the day, I'll be honest and say that I'm going to choose going out over staying in and writing any night. Now, that said, I'm still in this thing. Not going to lie and say that I'm going to wring out the two shows I 'missed', as I'm going to just work that into the reality of CSW, but I'll have my next show up on the day it's due. So, yeah, basically, my bad, real life got in the way, but I'm not out of this yet.

Man, Ivan Putski better watch his mouth with all of the African-American talent currently calling Central States home. I sure hope that we don't develop any leaks, although they do say that any publicity is good publicity, so... Definitely looking forward to your future issues. I'm subscribing now!

Sorry my show is late, was a hectic weekend. Plan to get something up tonight, if not then, I'm off on Tuesday.