cad

#169 vs #198 from last time. Two guys with generally good reputations, except here, where their nominee threads were largely negative. Career WWE worker vs a guy who had successful runs in Japan, Mexico and the United States but flopped, literally and figuratively, in WWE. Dragon thread Orton Thread

Is there any other worker like him? With some guys you watch the matches hoping to see what spectacular move they'll do this time. With Ciclon it's just one move, you've seen it before, and you still watch in hopes of seeing it again. No dive better conveyed the wrestling universal that you don't want to get hit by high flying offense. Beyond the tope, Ciclon brought a lot to the table. He knew his holds and counterholds. He was a wild bumper who was up for spots that no one else would be crazy enough to do. And he could brawl. Man, could he brawl. It's not hard to imagine an alternate reality in which he spent his entire career working bloody wars on the indies, with only one or two of them surviving into this century and leaving us all wondering who this maniac was and why we couldn't see more of him. Instead he was so talented that he couldn't help working for a major promotion with TV, where they mostly stuck him in the undercard. I wish the Felino program had been better, because that was his big shot, but the closest it ever got to an out of control fight was when it turned into a WWE Divas feud based on ripping each other's clothes off. A while back there were some positive reviews of his IWRG run in 2000, but very little of that is online. The hair vs hair match with Javier Cruz listed upthread is the one to watch, but here are some random matches that I hope demonstrate the appeal of Mr. Ramirez. CR, Blue Demon Jr. and Javier Cruz vs Pirata Morgan, Hombre Bala and Hijo del Gladiador CR and America vs Engendro and Scorpio Jr. CR, Huracan Sevilla and Jinete vs Ciclon Mackey, La Fiera and Espectro de Ultratumba CR and Oro vs America II and Emilio Charles Jr. CR, Ultimo Dragon and Oro vs Negro Casas, Felino and Bestia Salvaje

There are times when CMLL workers, even alltime greats at their peak like Casas in the early 1990s, don't have anything going on, at least not on TV. Between their own programs they'll show up as backup during other wrestlers' feuds, or they'll just work random matches, getting their paydays and pleasing the people who wanted to see them. There are also invisible programs that they'll be working, where they'll have the title match and the exciting matches that build to it, but it's all at Arena Coliseo Acapulco, or one of the untaped Sunday shows in Mexico City, or maybe a non-CMLL territory like Monterrey, so it's not something we can watch in 2021. It's different from the WWF where the untelevised shows are usually just guys working whoever they're partnered with on TV at the moment, but where pretty much everyone important is involved in an angle at all times. Other than the matches listed above, I guess the most interesting thing about Casas in 1993-95 is that he turned tecnico and back to rudo in that span. He spent much of spring/summer '93 as part of the Felino-Ciclon Ramirez program, and it looked like they were setting up an angle between Casas and Felino. Either they weren't, or it was the slowest developing turn of all time, because Casas didn't start teaming with the tecnicos until June 1994. The catalyst, IIRC, was Emilio Charles and Bestia Salvaje beating him up after he lost a match for them, but instead of seeking revenge on them he just dredged up his rivalry with Mocho Cota, which had drawn a decent house for them as a rudo vs rudo program in March. Then Santo joined the promotion in summer of 1995 and Casas almost immediately returned to the rudo side to feud with him.

Couple of months back I got curious and checked out a Satanico match for the first time in years, thinking maybe I'd gotten past my disdain for the guy. It was the December 1995 hair match with Hector Garza, one I'd never read anything about. Garza got to win clean, not something that you see often against Satanico, but what a price to pay. The moves that he used to win each fall were literally his only offense in the whole match. I thought that Satanico vs Octagon from 1991 was the ultimate example of halfassing a job. Unbelievable that he found a way to top it. Another Satanico classic.

Revolutionary mind, but they labeled him a wino. I'm not sure he contributed any vocals to Psycho, just appeared in a music video for it. There's another music video for the song that doesn't include Konnan at all, which would be kind of shitty on Mad One's part.

Thanks for the upload and the link to the alternate upload, guys. I really appreciate it.

It probably has more to do with the fact that women's wrestling from Mexico largely has been ignored by the star rating type of fans. I've been as guilty of it as anyone, maybe more so. There's plenty of Pantera out there to watch, you just have to be content to see her in opening style tag matches, the kind that are on the card just to warm up the crowd. I recommended the Toreo title match with Jaguar Yokota off memory, haven't seen it in probably five years, but I think that was the match that opened my eyes to her. I badly wish someone would upload it.

Pantera Sureña I don't have a strong image of Pantera Sureña as a character. What I can tell you is that she was in the two best women's matches in Mexico that I've seen, one a technical match against Jaguar Yokota in El Toreo and the other a bloody hair vs hair match against Lola Gonzalez in Arena Mexico. She's not flashy and she's not going to jump off the screen at you as a personality, but she was a well rounded worker who stood out in a division that I'm not sure has a single nominee yet. La Galactica vs Jaguar Yokota (May 5 1983) PS vs Jaguar Yokota (May 12 1985) PS vs Lola Gonzalez (December 9 1988)

El Texano Bullish wrestler who could work tecnico or rudo, one of the most skilled guys of his era. He probably doesn't have the matches (I think there are two Texano one vs one matches on video), so you'd have to vote for him on skill or just how much you enjoy watching him. In the late '80s and early '90s he stands out pretty much every match he's in. The most famous part of his career (Misioneros de la Muerte) is barely represented on tape. El Texano, El Dandy and Super Muñeco vs Atlantis, Angel Azteca and Blue Demon Jr. (March 24 1989) El Texano, Apolo Dantes and Mascara Sagrada vs Villano I, Villano IV and Villano V (April 20 1990) El Texano vs El Signo (January 12 1992)

The thing I love about Javier Cruz in this period is how hard he works. He might be my pick for 1994 CMLL MVP just because of the effort he put into every weak idea the company had for him. I don't know if it was professional pride or that he was clinging to his spot for as long as he possibly could. You want me to main event Arena Mexico against Ciclon Ramirez, a year after he was last relevant? Sure, we can have one of the best apuestas matches of the decade. Can I at least get to win? You want me to have a long feud with Americo Rocca, culminating in a hair match? Okay, I didn't know he was even with the company, but yeah we can do a Javieres feud like five years after that was an operating unit. Can I at least get to win? You want me to captain one of the least relevant trios in history with Mogur and Cachorro Mendoza, together losing every TV match we have? I guess winning's out of the question there. Fine, just as long as we get to have a team name.

See, Atlantis is a guy I would say was great for about four or five years. Even if he delivered a great match in 2000 or 2014 he wasn't the consistently electric presence he'd been in the EMLL glory days. Satanico's harder to pin down because his best stuff was in the 1980s and harder to document, but '90s Satanico wasn't exactly a great worker anymore, so it's hard to say how long he was great vs. how long Fuerza was. He'd have to have been special as early as the 1970s to have a big edge on Fuerza. Almost every '80s Fuerza match makes him look good. DJ Spectro recently uploaded a fancam from 1985-86 in which Fuerza works hard and has a good match in Arena Pista Revolucion, the third string EMLL arena in Mexico City. The list at the beginning of the thread is a good place to start. On a smaller scale, I remember when he came back to Arena Mexico in 1995 he was walking around ringside, kneeing Fiera in the groin and then kissing the hand of some woman who always had front row seats. It was this match: Blue Panther y Fuerza Guerrera Regresan a la Arena Mexico en 1995. I thought that captured Fuerza's essence quite nicely.

I don't get dinging Fuerza for a lack of longevity, like at all. He was born in the early 1950s, same as guys like Americo Rocca. He was over 40 for all of those AAA matches with Rey, Panther, and the gang. Was he supposed to be a force at age 50? You can see from what little we have on him that he was good in the '80s too. And wasn't it 2016 when people were praising him for still being able to have a good match with Octagon at 60+? If the problem is that he wasn't great after 1995 or so, well, that's still six years he was a great worker. Most guys, even the great ones, aren't genuinely great for that long.

He used to post here as Herodes but changed names for some reason. Doesn't look like his old account was banned.

Yeah, I thought they were the better matchup in that fall actually. It's weird to see a forty year old excon getting treated as an equal by a workrate favorite who does powerbombs and moonsaults. They had a title match that was televised but IIRC it's from that period in late 1993 when almost no CMLL made its way into anyone's collections.

Arturito Luchas Monterrey '90s wrestling from Monterrey. Mostly highlights/partial matches, and it looks like "filming your TV" quality video, but most of this is rare stuff, much of it featuring workers of whom we do not have a lot of video. He has the entire first fall of a Dandy/Ultimo Dragon vs Negro Casas/Mocho Cota match from 1994 and it's a damned good fall.

Shocker vs Emilio: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=453691551895591

Wow, this really has gotten serious.

I don't think that English speaking lucha fandom has ever been large enough or connected enough for there to be a true consensus, but the already mentioned March 1995 AAA match and the November 1991 CMLL match were probably the closest candidates. Last time I watched them, I thought that the rudos got more heat on the tecnicos during the AAA match than I'd remembered, whereas with the CMLL match I thought there was a disconnect between how Satanico wrestled (wrestling even with or even getting the better of the Brazos) versus the other two Infernales (consistently losing their exchanges, at points outright stooging). I don't do star ratings, but when I tried to make a list of top ten Mexican matches for each year from 1988-1999, these were the six-mans that I thought were great: Brazo de Oro/Brazo de Plata/El Brazo vs Pirata Morgan/Hombre Bala/El Verdugo (the rematch, Nov. 1989) Emilio Charles Jr./MS-1/Tierra Viento y Fuego vs Atlantis/El Dandy/Mascara Sagrada (Nov. 1989) Pierroth Jr./MS-1/Ulises vs El Dandy/Mogur/Popitekus (Jan. 1990) Danny Boy/Lasser/Robin Hood vs Tigro/Panthro/Leono (title match, Aug. 1990) La Fiera/Jerry Estrada/Bestia Salvaje vs Blue Demon Jr./El Hijo del Solitario/Huracan Sevilla (Jan. 1992) Perro Aguayo/Rayo de Jalisco Jr./Konnan vs Cien Caras/Sangre Chicana/Mascara Año 2000 (Mar. 1992) Negro Casas/La Fiera/Bestia Salvaje vs El Dandy/Ringo Mendoza/Ultimo Dragon (Jul. 1992) Atlantis/Lizmark/Ultimo Dragon vs Negro Casas/Emilio Charles Jr./Bestia Salvaje (Jul. 1992) Atlantis/Pierroth Jr./El Dandy vs El Satanico/Emilio Charles Jr./La Fiera (Nov. 1992) Psicosis/Heavy Metal/Picudo vs Rey Misterio Jr./Winners/Super Calo (the rematch, Feb. 1993) Negro Casas/El Felino/Bestia Salvaje vs Ciclon Ramirez/Oro/Ultimo Dragon (Mar. 1993) El Dandy/Silver King/Ultimo Dragon vs Emilio Charles Jr./Pierroth Jr./Javier Llanes (Jan. or Feb. 1994) Blue Panther/Fuerza Guerrera/Jerry Estrada vs Super Astro/Volador/Transformer (Jan. 1995) El Hijo del Santo/La Parka/Octagon vs Eddy Guerrero/Santo Negro/Psicosis (Feb. 1995) El Hijo del Santo/Rey Misterio Jr./Octagon vs Blue Panther/Fuerza Guerrera/Psicosis (Mar. 1995) Negro Casas/El Dandy/Hector Garza vs El Hijo del Santo/Bestia Salvaje/Scorpio Jr. (rematch of the Santo turn match, Nov. 1996) Virus/Zumbido/Halcon Negro vs Olimpico/Kendo/El Oriental (Jun. or Jul. 1998) Dr. Wagner Jr./Blue Panther/Black Warrior vs Atlantis/Emilio Charles Jr./El Felino (Jan. 1999) Dr. Wagner Jr./Blue Panther/Black Warrior vs Atlantis/Emilio Charles Jr./El Felino (this was a pair of matches, a brawling match first and a title match the week after) That was a project from a while ago, and some of these have faded in my memory, so I will bold the ones that still stick out to me as MOTY level.

Disappointing. I'd rather see an argument for her as the Michael Jordan of the WWF, the same way that Randy Orton is the Tom Brady of the WWF.

I'd say he is or was just as self serious as Douglas. He has a sense of humor, but it's usually directed at others rather than at himself. And remember that video game ad or something, where the only rule was that they could not show HHH on the receiving end of a move? I doubt that even Douglas would have been that petty. Yeah, it was nice to learn that Cornette wanting wrestlers to sell too much for him was not something that originated in SMW.

Andre vs Hogan is not a bad pick I think. Is that the first real "Wrestlemania moment" in terms of a specific move during a match? Stuff like that and the Snuka cage dive define what the WWF wanted out of its biggest matches back then. It doesn't seem to be much remembered now, but Liger vs Pillman would be a match that's along the same sort of evolutionary path as the Guerrero vs Malenko match. Although with Guerrero/Malenko I'd add that it also resembled modern matches in the audience not really caring who won or lost but just being excited by the skill on display and the fact that it was wrestled in their promotion.

Yes, it's a shame more of them can't be blind fanboys who interact with the rest of the world solely to hammer us over the head with their banal opinions. Because that way they'd at least hold the right beliefs, like that year seven will finally be the year that Big Rome becomes the Steve Austin that we all know he has inside of him.

The trained boxer part mattered, the one hundred pounds didn't. Gunn was the same size as Butterbean, probably bigger unless they really exaggerated when billing his height. Bean was just fat.

Mascara Magica was pushed for a minute in the late '90s, lost his mask to Satanico in some cluster cage match in the early '00s. Perro took someone else's mask in Monterrey around the time he got Konnan's. I don't remember whose, might have been a Huracan Ramirez. (Actually it was Stuka, bigger name than any of the unoriginal Huracanes) Psicosis suffered the ignominy of losing his mask twice to unmasked wrestlers, Rey Misterio Sr. in Mexico and Kidman in the USA. Juventud lost his to Chris Jericho in America, don't know who got him in Mexico (no one, it turns out, he just stopped wearing it there after he lost it in the states).

He's 99% to blame in the sense that as the big boss he approves everything, but apportioning blame like that is pretty simplistic. Wasn't his MO famously to avoid mentioning wrestler's pasts elsewhere? I doubt he came up with the idea of highlighting a guy's work in Japan. Doubt he even knew all that much about it. IIRC when he introduced himself to Foley he said something like, "Hi, Mike." The original Mankind push was more his style, monster heel coming in, looking dangerous for a few months to build to the big match when the face takes him down. The NWO blurred the reality line in an entirely different way. Their appearances felt more real than the rest of the show, and that was for only a very brief time. They weren't encouraging a peek behind the curtain. Oh, I forgot the book. His was the first and most influential one.