G. Badger

Enjoyed the heck outta Super Astro vs Takashi Okano IWA Japan 11/17/94. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hpFAi2q1pJM It was the Super Astro show so, it had lots of junior/lucha spots. Okano was good in hanging with Astro and making everything look good. Plus he added a little humor in as well. At around 9 minutes, its well worth a watch.

No, I think its relevant for sure. That's what makes it interesting. They're good money men but, perhaps boring or repetitive. Or only good for live shows... I don't think this way but, in regards to the OP, stylistically will their stuff hold water and influence Indy wrestling for years to come like Joe et al. I guess I'm asking someone to make an argument that it will. I like Matt D's post especially in regards to Brody also

I'm curious: will any of their output be memorable in 10-15 years like Joe, Danielson, Daniels, Punk era Indy wrestling? Does any match or feud stand out from another? Or are they just "of the moment?"

I'm more bothered by giant dudes doing standing shooting star presses at this point. Why do that!? Just stomp a dude or drop a massive elbow? The Bucks been around long enough that I can respect their schtick and have come to appreciate them especially in their natural habitat of the Reseda, CA foreign legion hall. More recently: The Elite stuff is tiresome especially if you (like me) actually had to endure years NWO, DX and every shit incarnation, imitation, or revival of it.

A very solid match. There was nothing outstanding but that really makes it special. That is to say they wanted to put on a very good match, not an excellent one nor a classic, and they reached that goal. Both men were stiff, Misawa's arm-focused attack was good thinking (considering Misawa was not yet Hansen's equal), and the ending was both clever & inspiring. Big matches should aspire to this type of performance rather than shooting for the stars and crash landing onto highspot/no sell island.

Just finished watching this. Somebody slung this up on the 'tube a couple weeks ago. I'm sure the ROH cops will catch it soon enough. Calling this match a dud is a pretty big exaggeration. It is a 5 star match? No but, then again Mr. Meltzer has clearly lost his marbles in the rating department IMO. If you know Davey then, you're not going to find anything too surprising here. Its two tough guy meat heads beating the crap outta each other. Personally, I enjoy Davey's schtick. I'm not sure he's going for goofy aggro but, that's how I read it. Like guys psyching each other up to pull stunts at a party...if he's going for Kobashi then he's really overshot it I like it nonetheless. Elgin really lacks personality at all. I think that's what hurts most of his matches. He's basically the Hulk. "Elgin Smash!" Hit him a bunch, he gets mad and fights back, feats of strength, hit him harder, he gets madder etc. If anything a guy like Davey is going to produce a good match with Big Mike for this reason. Its like Hulk vs Wolverine. On the downside, that's all the match really is...but, if its done right, it can be very enjoyable. I think that was the case here. I felt they escalated the violence well, transitioned and fought for the turnbuckle moves in a believable manner, and stayed away from directionless strike trading. It was probably a few minutes longer than it needed but, that's alright. Kelly and Nigel commentating was grating at start but, they were fanning out so, it added to it. One thing I will say that helped elevate the seriousness of the bout was the stiffness. I never felt they phoned it in with the elbows or kicks. And they sold very well too...surprised since Davey especially can break a match here. They just have good chemistry...again if your looking for Wolverine vs Hulk then this is a damn good match for it. I think their match from PWG BOLA 2012 night 1 might be as good. I can't recall. I could see not liking this match as there are some goofy moments but, if you can dig those (or endure them) there's a pretty good match here. No way its a dud. Edit: I'm going to rewatch this but, I think ***3/4 is fair. I could see people rating this higher or lower. Maybe the rewatch will reveal more. Update: watched it again today and it's pretty damn enjoyable. There are a couple goofy moments but, those are outweighed by the good ones. Nigel provides really good insight on what's going on in the wrestlers heads so, it actually gives depth/psychology to the bout without Elgin or Davey conveying that. I think that also elevates the match to his (Nigel's) credit. So, like *** 3/4 - ****1/4 range feels right. It was better on the rewatch oddly enough.

Throwback Thursday: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL53kKJBMWATdIPkA-8x6JXUhr8sE5zC9l&v=eK5rwHdw4GE It think this match along with the Liger tag match the next night were good entry points for people curious about puro and unaware of tape/DVD trading and selling. Also, having Liger come in and do a couple matches in 2004 helped ROH establish there was a demand for Japanese stars. The Kendo Ka Shin stuff turned it a little sour and they went with NOAH & Dragon Gate for a good while and now ROH & NJ are running shows together. AJ never was welcome back after Final Battle '03. This match is pretty darn fun and only doesn't hold up well because international stars in ROH or in general is common place. So, yeah its a bit of a novelty almost like they did a highlights version of a Dragon/Liger match. But, the crowd is going ape and its really easy to get sucked into that even now.

This is up online: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fgjem4K8vqw I have this in the MCMG topic in the GWE tag teams folder too. This is a recommended TLC match which I'm a little down on as a gimmick. Oh excuse me...Full Metal Mayhem® match! Duh! I liked this mainly because they keep the action moving despite the death trap made in the middle of the ring. The MCMG provide some psych in building this too. "Oh man, I can't get both belts! Its too tall for these ladders!" The Bucks are restrained in their shenanigans but, bring the Indy wackiness. The Guns wisely abstain from their combos (either due to age/injury or a stylistic choice). They still go off the turnbuckles and stuff but, it wasn't a Junior acrobatic type train wreck. And it wasn't a plodding "set up the high spots" match either. I liked it a lot actually. Should mention: Sabin damn near fell off the contraption after the match.

ROH has a couple of their more famous matches posted. I think ROH makes them private after awhile but, for the time being here are the links MCMG vs Aries & Danielson - 08/01/08 MCMG vs the Briscoe Bros. - 04/28/07 Both are really great matches. Frenetic and double teams galore. If you're in the mood, they're the MCMG without the TNA constraints or sometimes lackluster opposition. As far as the Bucks surpassing them in terms of speed/combos, this is true but, Sabin & Shelley are much better individual wrestlers and have presence in their own right. Plus they are fundamentally more sound especially Shelley. TNA Final Resolution 2010 - 12/05/10 Motor City Machineguns vs. Generation Me (Young Bucks) - Full Metal Mayem match https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fgjem4K8vqw Not that this match shows fundamentals but, the MCMG let the Bucks do their thing without going bananas. Letting the youngsters dive and such. This is more of a one pair at a time contest and I feel Sabin & Shelley bring more charisma to it than the Nick & Matt. What I'm getting it is that the Bucks comparison isn't a fair one. In terms of TNA's tag division at the time it seemed that way. The Dudleys, Beer Money, and then two Jr. or work rate teams. The above ROH matches sorta show that Danielson, Aries, Briscoes, were working a similar style just off TV. Sabin & Shelley were allowed to keep their style during the abysmal Booker T, Nash, Hogan TNA times...albeit opening PPVs like they were 5 years earlier.

Man, everyone has made really great points. Anything I say here is as someone who has lurked longer than been a member. I actively started checking out PWO when the 1996 yearbook was getting underway. Checking in on a daily basis to see what everyone was saying, getting recommendations, etc. It was great watching each year get filled with more views, discussions and so on was awesome. I really should have signed up back then but, my life circumstances at the time would have made it difficult. Nevertheless, I finally got on board and since I mainly watch older stuff and have like a 200 page long word doc of reviews, I'm all about sharing in the MDA yearbooks. I feel the MDA now serves more as a reference source than a forum for discourse. The emphasis is more on Match Archive than Match Discussion... at least for everything pre 2015. I'm not sure newer folks even scroll down to check it anymore. They may just click straight to the main page or the current WWE forum. The 90s yearbook sets that folks watched helped keep that discussion going and gave context and organization but, for the 1920s-80s & 2000s-2010s especially, its kinda the wild west. So, people may shy away from posting or create topics without a consistent format. I think the best thing is to encourage people that create new topics in the MDA to tag the hell of it. Have a minimum or standardized tag "requirement." At least the names of the participants, any AKAs (if known), the promotion, belt/title defended, and specific tour/annual event name like Royal Rumble or G1 Climax. Hopefully, those things would provide some cross reference even if someone's spelling or spacing is off. Any topic on the main forums, the above but, add a year tag too. IDK if any admin can add or edit tags retroactively but, I see topics in the MDA with no tags or with just a name or two. That bums me out a little... Also, adding links or at least cross referencing other posts within your post is good practice that I don't see often enough anymore but, it helps synthesize the board as reference source and forum. I don't know if you can or want to "enforce" the tagging but, folks may just need a little direction, guidance, or even reminder now & again. That way there's relatively consistent board organization and perhaps clearer research & discussion pathways. I hope this helps

Totally spot on SAMS! I think that's what I was trying to getting at with my video game remarks earlier Everything builds up to the finisher. My PS1 laser burned holes through my copies of Smackdown 1 & 2 so, I remember that once you got a finisher stored, 9 out of 10 times that ended it...even if you threw a guy off the cell earlier. Didn't play any WWE games until last year and I'll be darned! It's the same way! With finishes in wrestling, how do we (they) put the genie back in the bottle? I think your point of submission holds is really important here. Having quick submission finishes brings a sense of realism back to live wrestling that is sorely lacking. (Perhaps having shorter clean matches with nothing invented before 1988 before the finishing sequence?) Otherwise people are wanting to tune into to a live version of their wrestling game. 25+ minute matches with all kinds of bonkers shit. I know I need to take a day or two break from Fire Pro or 2K14 before I watch actual wrestling. I get desensitized..."oh a powerbomb...Ho-hum." So, I think its all for shock value from here on out...entertaining but, lost in the shuffle with the next 4.5-5.75 star match. A series of one-ups-manship unless there's some kind of massive scale taste shift for minimalism (for lack of a better word...perhaps restraint or style?) in wrestling akin to the Thatcher, Gulak, Biff stuff from a couple years ago.

Alex Shelley, Roderick Strong & Austin Aries vs Matt Bentley, Sonjay Dutt & Chris Sabin - 1/15/06 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WADCrpxNx2g Humorously, the following match from Gen Next in TNA is from the Final Resolution '06 ppv and features Sonjay Dutt, Michael Shane (Matt Bentley) and interference leading to the pinfall! What the hell!? Many reasons TNA was goofy as all get-out but, putting a TV level match on PPV where money is paid seems awfully asinine. Or did TNA do WCW Saturday Night style tapings? Like we're taping a months worth of stuff in a day...then we'll edit it to make sense or fit time restrictions. The "Impact Zone" looked like the the same studio. Can't believe they would do that for PPVs though... Anyhow, the match is good but, is very TV caliber. Sonjay doesn't botch anything but, Shane/Bentley is kinda bland for a fireworks type match.

Austin Aries, Roderick Strong and Alex Shelley vs Christopher Daniels, Chris Sabin and AJ Styles - IMPACT! 1/7/06 Surfing YouTube and this match washed up. No idea that this dream match up occurred or at least in this form. Usually TNA would throw Sonjay Dutt or Michael Shane or someone far worse in there to muddy the waters just a little bit. Like "ah it's almost all A level workers but dammit there's so and so." Here we have in essence Generation Next reformed taking on Chris Daniels, Sabin, and AJ. Holy crap, that's a pretty match on paper especially in 2017. Its roughly 10 minutes so, its no classic or even a great match but, man they do a 100% spot on balls to the wall sprint. No shenanigans or run ins like I was expecting. Dives, double teams, tilt a whirl moves like they're going out of style, AJ in peril etc. Plus Alex Shelley does the Embassy pose which was funny and confusing for a sec Anyhow, very fun stuff...like a golden age ROH midcard match that just happened to be on TNA.

I'm psyched we're talking Kaz Hiyashi in general! I've watched 4 Kaz Hiyashi matches today (3 WCW TV matches and ROH Final Battle '03 vs Styles) and that abdomen kick of his looks like it couldn't hurt a child. Light as a feather! The rest of his stuff is awesome though. Great bumps, dives, sweet arm drags...so much fun.

For some of us, yeah. But I'd guess there are more fans out there who mark out far bigger for the sick moves. One of the reasons I love A.J. Styles. Can throw a good strike and still do all the cool moves. Yeah, exactly who I was thinking of. There were a slew of dudes that could do flips, spins, etc. as well as AJ but, he made an effort to be a more complete wrestler. I remember seeing him on Wildside thinking 'ah here's another crazy dive guy' then seeing him years later in TNA. I was surprised how he evolved. Cool moves will only get ya so far. I guess that's a better way to put it. No disrespect to Daniels or Kaz as I like them a bunch but, they were the examples I could think of for that era/style of wrestling. I'm sure they aren't the worst How was Elix Skipper?

As far as worst strikes, that's a lot harder. I like Christopher Daniels but, dude has never impressed me with a great punch...let alone kick. I think there was a GIF where he airballs on a gut kick. Kaz Hiyashi is a guy in the same boat but was OK as Shiryu. He never seemed to revert back once in AJPW. I guess a lot of the juniors during the last days of WCW were shit on the punches and kicks. Probably the same goes for TNA guys like Amazing Red, Petey Williams, and other guys I can't remember... I think the lesson is that a good punch and kick are better than sick moves.

A great addition to this classic match is the 12/10/88 match between Kawada & Tenryu and Jumbo & Yatsu. I don't think its worth its own topic but, it sets up the Kawada leg injury as well as his fearlessness in the face of vets. I watched that right before this match and man, what a ride. T. & K. were insane in the 12/10 match so, even though I've watched this match before, I was skeptical of the outcome. That small package rollup on Gordy had me fooled! I'm like, "That's it, that's it!" This an all time classic and is great intro to puro IMO.

A true testament to old school wrestling. This was such a tough physical contest that it was a wonder that they could keep going. The first fall was the best, yet each one had something special about it. I wouldnt put this in the very top tier of "old school" matches that I own but, its still quite good. The only drawback is the lack of variety of action in the final fall but, they picked it up when they needed to. This balanced it out when all was said and done. Great match nonetheless!

This was another awesome match put on by four of the best of all time. It started out really well and settled in nicely but was not the best of the year which considering how awesome 10/15/95 was, it’s not too shabby. In fact, if memory serves me this was akin to the all action 5/21/94. This was better though because it lacked the awkwardness of that incarnation. This was like a beautiful trainwreck at times. The stiffness and viciousness was Bull Nakano-like. In that I mean you could tell they weren’t really in control all of the time and it was more brutal because of it. Otherwise, story laden with nice variations, even though the Nodowa Otoshi was a bit too much of a part but, it worked and was never too much. Not as engrossing as the 6/9 or 10/15 match but a great match nonetheless and the Misawa/Kobashi team’s swan song. Put that way it was rather fitting and continued the story.

Maybe I'm just a sucker for tag-matches but this was amazing. The timing was really brilliant stuff & showing Akira Taue's toughness was a great little story here too. I wasn't sure he could take all that Misawa & Kawada were dishing out. Although this was clipped a little bit on the front end since I think it was a TV episode (complete with commercials!), it didn't effect the greatness of the match. They're building off of past confrontations or adding neat twists. Kawada really comes into his own here too. I felt that in the couple months since the last match he's got his intensity dialed up. Great stuff!

Here's my first impression of the match: Wow! This is the match that pre-dates ECW in just about every way & makes me remember why I loved that crazy old promotion. There are massive amounts of blood and stabbing and tons of fighting in the stands. This is not a move-fest by any stretch but they make up for it with hate. What's even neater is I sort of figured out the offensive psychology. They don't use moves or holds because those are essentially defensive tactics. Traditional moves encompasitate or weaken the opponent as to make them submit or be pinned because in essence most wrestlers fear the losing, the pain of wrestling etc. These two do not & that is why they fight they way they do...they don't fear losing, they don't fear pain. They invite it as a means to an end. One would think putting these together would make a crappy match but, no! This was an amazing spectacle really up there with the better deathmatches of the 90's & maybe even the Terry vs. Catcus IWA Duel of the Wilds match for psychological perversity. Watch the crowd as much as you watch the wrestlers. I'll call it a classic.

From PWG's always killer hype videos, this match looked great. You and Dave M. both gave it around the same marks so, I'm curious what held it back from being rated higher in your opinion? From your comments, it seems like a 4+ type of match. Just watched Dick vs Zack at wXw's 11th Anniversary show...Dick's retirement tour 11/24/11. It was great stuff much like you described this PWG encounter. Tons of grappling, fighting over holds, going for pins throughout, accented by nice maneuvers towards the end. Full of action, stiff, and I'm just wondering if Togo ring rust & Sabre's heel gimmick had anything to do with this recent encounter not being highly regarded. Here's the wXw match for anyone who's interested: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Oixzbob1nH8

There's 2 titles for the show. The Outbreak title which is the Wrestle-1 title. Then, TNA's which is One Night Only Global Impact 2014. In case anyone was confused... Anyhow, I was completely ignorant to the fact that Sanada wrestled in TNA. I've been doing research for 2011-2015 AJPW and Sanada shows up early on in his team with Manabu Soya. So, I got distracted and watched a few Sanada matches in TNA including a recommended World title challenge vs AJ Styles. However, this match for Aries' X-Division belt is the best. It's thankfully more Jr. Puro style than TNA TV style. It's fought at a quick pace with excellent execution and with little daylight between strikes. Aries still has it. He was hitting his repertoire like it was 2007. Sanada was on point and impressive as well. They're very similar in style and build so, there was a nice parity story early on. This match had wrinkles added to Aries' spots. Sanada had him scouted it would seem. Its what made this memorable. They changed it up from the "I'll do my stuff, you do yours, let's go home" match they could have worked. There were some nice surprises and the finish was pretty good without going too far. It was a competitive fight that delivered what I was expecting and a little bit more. Highly recommended especially if you're in a re-watching 10 year old ROH mood.

I would have to say old as well. I wasn't pleased with the "new" wrestling at the time and there seemed to be a whole world that I was missing. Also, there was a fair amount of historical referencing in US wrestling during the attitude era (when my wrestle dorkiness blossomed). I think it was because top stars were jumping around so much that their past credentials were advertised, even after they left the company. ECW never shyed away from telling you that Austin, Foley, Raven, Guerrero, Misterio, Benoit, Saturn, Jericho et al. wrestled for them. Heck, they even showed the footage and oftentimes it looked much more appealing than what they were doing at the time in WWF and certainly WCW. WWF touted Foley's death match kingdom...in essence saying OK this guy who plays Mankind used to be Cactus Jack...and if you think Mankind is crazy...Jack fought in exploding barbwire matches in Japan. Ergo we are more hardcore than anything going on in ECW or WCW. At least to get the goofy teenage boys who liked that stuff to tune in Of course, their mention of Japan got me watching all of that. And probably a lot of other people too. I mean there was a reason FMW was selling commercial tapes in the US in like 99-2000s. Onita was in XPW even...goofy Anyhow, I like watching old stuff because I enjoy doing the research- reading people's opinions, tracking down the video or DVD, discovering stuff and so on. Watching new stuff is fun especially when there's a lot of hype since I'm out of the loop but, I quickly return to my bubble thereafter. Even then what I consider new is 2-5 yes old Brand New stuff like WWE & NJPW: I am not interested in the storylines or the style of wrestling for the most part. I tried but, it's not for me. I watch PWG every once in awhile but, I cherry pick the hell out of what shows I buy...so even then I'm watching old stuff!

It's basically how the 3 Stooges worked too. That's serious. They got all kinds of injuries from the hits and falls they all took. They were a vaudeville act first and like the wrestling of the day, it had to look real because good, scarce money was being spent for entertainment. Watch the Nagurski vs Londos match for instance http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/31725-jim-londos-vs-bronco-nagurski-111838/ Similarly, this is how the Funks were taught and I think a lot of the Texas guys or I should say football guys were taught too. Getting popped in the mouth or getting your bell rung is to be expected and not a big deal. Neither Funk kills a guy but, once in awhile they'll lay a shot in when it matters most. They make it look like "that one" they were trying really kill their opponent. Kawada and Misawa are another good example of this. Sometimes, they'll be working light all match and Boom! It looks like a KO. Sets up a nice natural transition too. I think that's where most guys go wrong. They go stiff all the time so, it never really means anything.