MikeCampbell

No, this was the first PPV under Kip Frye, Watts joined WCW in May or June of '92.

Per the request of JDW: "The Majority of Wrestling Marks thought Wrestling Was Real back in the Good Old Days."

My wife once related a story to me that an aspring musican landed a role on Beverly Hills 90210 playing Donna's abusive boyfriend, and that he wound up quitting because his music gigs would frequently feature people yelling at him to 'stop hitting Donna.' Maybe they thought it was real?

As a relative Lucha novice, I'm pleased to say this is one of the few Lucha matches that I seem to "get" on the first viewing. Lucha has this stereotype to people who aren't familiar with it of being little more than a bunch of whacked out holds and wrestlers constantly diving onto each other. This is the perfect match to show to that crowd, because it's very simple, yet very effective. MS easily winning the first fall by busting open Sangre and mostly refusing to let him in the ring and kicking at his head. Sangre getting revenge in the second fall and causing MS to bleed. The third fall featuring them both putting over the fatigue and blood loss, and I really dug MS constantly going for pins even after simple moves, but going for too much and being forced to submit. Tons of blood, good storytelling, what else do you need?

I enjoyed this so much! I don't want to sound like I'm parrotting Childs' post, which mentioned a number of things that I loved about it. I really liked the way it was sort of laid out, with the first fall being a straight up wrestling match, and when Jumbo gets the better of him Flair turns up the heat and the second fall is more of a brawl, with some good wrestling sequences thrown into things, and then Jumbo gets the better of him too, with how much he gets the blood flowing. I especially liked the bit at the end when Jumbo wouldn't quit and Flair let him out of the hold and started dropping knees onto his leg and then put the figure four back on.

Ric Flair goes insane is the perfect description for that promo. It starts out like your typical Flair promo, and then he just snaps and goes flying off the handle. It's almost like the famous Nitro promo on Bischoff, only Flair was projecting anger and rage instead of emotion.

I used to think that I was simply not 'getting' Lucha and that's why these matches didn't appeal to me. But having seen a fair amount of it now, the minis matches still don't do it. I enjoy things like Mascarita's ability to do an armdrag from seemingly any position and be impressed with his willingness to dive off the top to the floor head first. But these matches just don't do it for me. It probably didn't help that Espectrito got hit with the big plancha from the top and then had to no sell it and roll back in so Espectro could take the cheap shot, and that the ref's hesitation on some of the near falls telegraphed the kick out.

I actually expected to walk away from this match feeling let down, and I was. I didn't think it was horrible or anything, but after so many years of hearing the hype for it from various people and places, my hopes were somewhat high for it. That said, I really liked that all four of them weren't afraid to bump like pinballs, Dustin's nasty 360 bumps from Austin's lariats, Barry tumbling over the top, and both heels stooging like mad for the faces. I also really liked how it was Dustin who seemed to be out for blood, the way he went after Larry's arm while Barry was more all business. The only thing that I disliked actively about the match was the heat portion on Dustin, because it just seemed to drag on and on, and aside from Ausitn's lariats and them trying to bait Barry into running into the ring it didn't seem like they had much to do.

What did Dave say?

Has anyone held more titles for one promotion than Barry Windham in NWA/WCW? Not in terms of number times that he was champion, but just for sheer number of titles that he held for that particular company. NWA World Title (1993) NWA and WCW Tag Titles (1988 with Luger and 1992 with Dustin) NWA United States Title (1988-89) NWA United States Tag Team Titles (1986-87) WCW TV Title (1992) NWA Western States Heritage Title (1987-88)

I very much liked the When Worlds Collide Tag, but I never thought it was super great. I usually just passed it off as me not really getting the Lucha style. So I'm really looking forward to this one.

Meltzer is reporting that the reason for the renewed main event push of CM Punk and the John Morrison face turn is because Undertaker is hurt and Hardy's future is in doubt. Can anyone elaborate on the latter? Is he injured? Wellness issues? Something else?

I'd agree that restholds bring down a match, but only if they're truly restholds, meaning that they're not done for any other reason than to give them time to rest. I've seen plenty of matches where headlocks and chinlocks are used extensively, but are done in a way that it's clearly being done for a purpose and not just to kill time and rest.

I don't really have a problem with things like this, so long as it makes sense in the context of the match. Look at Edge's reverse X-Factor spot that he always does for a two count. It's not like he grabs the guy at does it, it comes when he ducks a big swing or avoids a lariat, so it makes sense for him to do the move. It's when guys do stuff for seemingly no reason at all other than to do it or to have it backfire (like Flair off the top) that I'm not really a fan of. I'd credit nWo Bischoff for this more than McMahon, and Bischoff was actually doing the sort of things that Jkeats was talking about. The Outsiders "lost" the WCW Tag Titles several times and he'd simply give the titles back to them. I think it's been overdone over the last five or six years, but I don't think it's such a bad thing. And it's not like the evil authority figures don't get their comeuppances. This is a big part of what separates pro wrestling from the legit fighting, it's supposed to be a performance. It's such a big part of wrestling. Can anyone picture an Alien movie without the alien bursting out of someone's chest or a Die Hard movie without explosions and gunshots? It's certainly something that could be done, but it wouldn't feel quite right and the fans of those movie series would complain. I don't think finishing moves are a huge stretch from that. Finishers are something that are very much anticpated by the fans because it's a sign that the end could be near and their favorite could be winning.

When Loss gives you the passwords?

I don't think it really matters whether the champ is heel or face, or even if there is a champ. But in order for there to be money in "the chase" it simply needs to be between two wrestlers (or teams) who are genuinely over.

Did Goldberg even really have a "chase" to the title? I like to think I've got a pretty good memory for stuff and I'm completely blanking on any real "chase" he was the U.S Champion and just doing his usual thing. Then it was announced he'd be going for the title, and the night of the show he had to go through Hall to get his match with Hogan.

Loss, you've got those '88 editions of the WON, any info about Flair/Luger as a drawing card leading up to the 'Bash or Starrcade? Also, does anyone have any specifics as to how well Flair/Luger did in 1990, with Lex as the fill-in for Sting? I think Loss pretty much nailed it though. There are times that a hot angle or a good storyline can draw money with the simple chase and keep the fans coming back in hopes of finally seeing the blowoff. But it's far from being an iron clad concept, Hogan, Inoki, Austin, Misawa, and I'd even add in Hashimoto, they all held their titles during their promotion's best days during their respective eras and there wasn't any sharp decline in business.

I don't know for sure, but I think you're right about the acoustics in the dome. I seem to recall watching one of those WCW PPVs with matches from an NJ dome show and Ross and/or Schivone talking about the quiet crowd and how it because they were respectful of the action or something to that degree.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that. But your last sentence makes the point. It's your personal taste. You're not stating it as fact the way Dave, Bryan, and Wade do, nor are you using what they said as some sort of argument that you must be right and whoever disagrees is wrong. Out of all the silliness you could find on the ROH board, nothing was more funny to me than when SKeith gave Joe/Kobashi the full five snowflakes and someone posted something like "take that!" to people who think it's an overrated match.

He actually wasn't the only guy getting booed, Albert was too (Lance Storm winning the IC title from him actually got a pretty big babyface pop). Actually, I think "Albert Heat" or "A-Train Heat" might even be more fitting than X-Pac heat. And I think SLL is spot-on about giving fans too much credit as far as distinguishing genuine heat from heel heat. Again, I don't dispute that he'd worn out his welcome by the time the WCW Invasion happened. But I'd say that, at least some of, his heat was due to the fact that he was the only WWF wrestler who was still working like a heel and relying on things like low blows to hit his finisher and interference from Albert. Such as his match with Tajiri from SummerSlam. Hell, when Kidman beat him at InVasion the announcers' reaction was "OMG WCW is on the board!" in a happy celebratory tone. Sure sounds to me like Kidman was supposed to be a babyface against X-Pac.

Probably my favorite 'wrestling myth' is the idea of X-Pac being so universally hated that it coined the term "X-Pac heat." I've always hated that term. If you watch WWF from his return and DX's face turn in '98 until the reunion when HHH was champion in late '99 he was one of the most over guys on the whole roster, probably third only to Austin and Rocky for crowd pops. Sure, he overstayed his welcome in the WWF, when DX was basically scrapped in late 2000 until he joined the nWo in 2002, he was more or less just sort of treading water.

I haven't seen a ton of David's work from Texas, but his Florida heel run wasn't anything special aside from the novelty of watching one of the Von Erich's work heel. I 100% agree with Sek's comment regarding his charisma, even watching the little bit of David featured on the documentary of the WWE World Class DVD, he looks far more fired up and excited than Kerry or Kevin. Of course, that might be the execption and not the rule. Other than David vs. Kamala, which Bix pimped on DVDVR a ways back, I'm at a loss for any great David matches that weren't the Freebird feud. I would agree with this to an extent. If you compare these three teams to later teams like La Resistance, Cade and Murdoch, Deuce and Domino, Hurricane/Rosey, or Cade and Jindrak, no question that the three of them were far more over. The only team who might have come close was Booker T/Goldust. But, as teams, they never really made it to the top. They worked occasional main events, but were either doing gimmicks like a six man tables match with Jericho and Angle teamed with them, or worked against other main eventers like Hardys vs. Austin/HHH or E&C vs. Rock and Taker. They were treated a lot better than the later tag teams would be, but I don't think they revitalized or revolutionized tag team wrestling. I liked this a lot, but I'll agree with Ditch about it being overrated. The main thing that I thought held it back was because the idea was that Cena was going into the match hurt (his ribs when Umaga splashed him through a table) but he never really sold them. He's clutch them when Umaga went after them, but there wasn't much beyond that. Aside from that, it was fairly smart worked. HHH or Michaels wouldn't have done anything close to this, they'd have been more likely to take everything Umage threw at them, and then Hulk-Up and finish him. Cena was smart enough to get his win by avoiding Umaga's biggest shots. Plus Umaga's bumping and selling for Cena was great, and throw in a few cutesy spots, like when Umaga ran across the announce tables, and it's quite the fun match. The absurdlys slow cover was a bit much, but I didn't think anything else was too bad. HHH's promo about Booker's "kind of people" not being ready for the title wasn't very tasteful, but it was Wrestling 101 to a degree. HHH doesn't think Booker is worthy and the next week, Booker pinned him in a tag match. The match itself was fine for the most part, HHH stooged a bit, and got his control segment when he pulled the rope and dodged the sidekick, and then started working over Booker's knee. It was one of the few times that the Pedigree bump being taken on the knee actually seemed logical. But the ultra slow cover was stupid.

This seems like a fun idea, given that there is no shortage of universally accepted truths in wrestling. Stuff like Kurt Angle being the best wrestler ever, Lex Luger supposedly being a musclehead with no talent at all, and the Dynamite/Tiger Mask series all being ***** classics have already been debated and debunked by the more level headed crowd (many of which can be found here). So I thought it'd be fun to examine some others and see how much water they hold. I'll add some of my own thoughts later, please feel free to add to it. These aren't necesarrily my opinions or things that I dislike, just things that I seem to hear a lot of. - David Von Erich was the best worker out of the whole family. - The Hardys/Dudleys/Edge and Christian feud revitalized tag team wrestling in the WWF/WWE. - John Cena vs. Umaga from Royal Rumble '07 is a lost classic. - The buildup and eventual match between HHH and Booker T at WrestleMania XIX buried Booker.

Not that I've seen, but then again, the only boards that we've both posted on (to my knowledge anyway) have usually been fairly level-headed places with a minimum of stupidity. But I do think Sek is probably right, I doubt it'll happen beyond the Wade superfans at the Torch boards, but it'll happen. That's the fun in the interweb, people take criticisim too personally and get carried away. You've experienced it yourself a bit, when dealing with Alvarez over Angle/Michaels. It's all over the place, if you criticise TNA then you're a blind WWE mark, if you criticise ROH then you 'don't understand real wrestling.' Hell, I've been called a piece of shit and worse for saying that I'm able to watch, and enjoy, Benoit matches.