elliott

I hate to say this feud wasn't the best feud ever because I think it is absolutely a candidate and I wouldn't really argue with it. I mean, you're right. Two completely different matches that were two of the best in company history. Add in all the promos & everything else and yeah its an all time great feud. It kinda depends on how you define "feud" and if you separate that from "rivalry." For example, if you asked me which was better the Hart/Austin feud or Hijo del Santo/Negro Casas feud from 96-97, I'd have to stop and think about it at least. But if you are just saying "Hart/Austin feud or Santo/Casas feud" and all that Santo/Casas shit starts piling up from 87, 92, 97 & in between & beyond, it gets harder and harder to pick Austin/Bret. Then there's something like New Japan vs UWF which just has dozens of great matches. I know Austin/Hart has Canadian Stampede, but NJ vs UWF has like 5 Canadian Stampede's where the 1997 Jim Neidhart role is played by 1986 Osamu Kido. If "rivalries" like 30 years of Lawler/Dundee or Santo/Casas count and multi person promotion feuds like New Japan vs UWF or Tenryu vs NJ are allowed, I dunno if Bret vs Austin makes my top 20. BUt no matter what the answer is Carlos Colon vs Stan Hansen.

Which Japanese wrestler will you rank highest? The last list I made had Tenryu at #4 with the closest guy being Kawada at 8. Misawa, Fujinami & Jumbo also made the top 12. Fujiwara, Tamura, Hashimoto & Liger were sort of my next tier all making the top 20. If I did a list right this second, I might rank Hashimoto 2nd to Tenryu. Which Japanese wrestlers do you expect to make your list? A lot. The above named guys obviously. Kobashi, Aja, Choshu, Chigusa, Jaguar, Hokuto, Devil, Ozaki, Kansai, Bull, Destroyer, Volk Han, Taue, Maeda, Yamazaki, Baba, Akiyama, Kikuchi, Hamada, Otsuka, Sano, Yatsu, Ishikawa, Ikeda ,Anjoh, Onita, Fuchi, Ikeda, Hase, Ohtani, Saito are all locks. With a bunch of other possible/probable names. Who was your favorite Ace? Hashimoto or Maeda. Liger is a fun off the wall pick too actually. Misawa probably had the very best matches as an ace but I'd rather watch the other guys. Favorite Top Challenger? In a traditional sense of a top challenger, Kawada for sure. But I wanted to give Tenryu some love for basically having a Tenryu vs the World career in the 90s with big singles & tag matches against Jumbo, Hogan, Flair, Savage, The Road Warriors, Onita, Takada, all of New Japan. He's pretty much the closest thing to Ric Flair in 90s Japan. Tenryu had a big match with basically every relevant star in Japan except for Maeda, Tamura, Volk Han types. And FUCK do I want to watch a Maeda vs Tenryu match from 1988. Who was your favorite under the radar guy? This is definitely a "make it whatever you want it to be category." It could be related to push or their standing in this project or whatever. Since PWO is such a footage haven with so many people nominated, I wanted to point out somebody not even nominated. I'm not sure if I would because I've never thought about him in a meaningful way. But I have to say Takashi Iizuka has to have the 3 best matches for someone not nominated between the Steiners/Fujinami Tag from WrestleWar, the Nagata/Kawada/Fuchi tag from 12/00 and the Hashimoto/Ogawa/Murakami tag from 1/00. Those are all really great matches. Kazunari Murakami is another guy I wanted to mention because I just watched a really fun match between him and Marafuji where Murakami just bloodied and beat the crap out of him. He won't make my list but he'd by way up a favorites list. Who has disappointed you the most? This is kinda hard for me. Jumbo in a sense because like a lot of people I'm not in love with a lot his 80s work before Choshu showed up. But at the same time there's a lot of it I think is really great. I really like him from Choshu's invasion on through to the end of his run as a serious worker so he feels like a weird pick and is a lock for my top 15. Inoki went from a guy I thought was just inconsistent and had plenty of tools and could have good matches with the right opponent to one of my handful of least favorite wrestlers. Who has surprised you the most? (I wanted to add this to end on a positive note. I'll toss out some love) Tenryu leapfrogging everyone else. Hashimoto going from a guy I always loved and thought was underrated and a top 50 sort of guy to being a guy I still love and a top 10-15 sort of guy. Tamura being a great mat wrestler within the first 10 matches of his career. I mean what the fuck. Fujiwara being a guy I never watched back in the tape trading days to becoming a favorite and top 10 candidate. The hype is real. Fujinami's late 70s-89 run. Akira Maeda's 84-90 run. Super Tiger who I sorted of dreaded watching on the NJ set then became one of my favorite wrestlers on the Other Japan set and I was sad when he left. What a totally bizarre career. Kodo Fuyuki in late 90s FMW The Carl Greco experience. I need to think more about the specific best runs for x-number of years questions.

Yeah, that's true. The only post 2000 MOTYC I saw from Satanico was the 2001 Infierno en el Ring match. There are quite a few solid to good matches from the past 15 years but nothing really earth shattering post Infernales vs Nuevos Infernales feud. The past few years have actually been really good for Satanico working matches with guys like Panther, Navarro, Solar, Dandy, etc. I don't watch much modern wrestling but with things like Brock/Reigns, Cena/Bryan, Wyatts/Shield all happening in the last 3 years, I can't really call any of the Satanico matches MOTYCs. It is certainly an impressive old man run. But I honestly don't think it adds much to his case as a GOAT. I just think it is important to keep in mind who his peers really are.

Here's a short clip for those like me that missed it. As someone who is totally checked out on modern WWE, I thought this was really cool. The Rock is awesome. I would freak out if Rock walked up to me and gave me daps and asked my name. Super cool moment for those fans. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEHAeT_3zd0

This. Imagine if the first glimpse of Ric Flair on tape was 2 months before the first Starrcade.

Totally agree with this. When he wipes his bloody face, sees his own blood on his hands and snaps is one of my favorite things in wrestling. Satanico was wrestling's best actor.

Oh I vaguely remember that actually! Anything else from those 2 days you, or anyone can remember?

Bumping a 4 year old thread after reading an 8 year old comment! Woo! I was reading the "Greatest things ever written on wrestling message boards" thread and saw this post http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/8273-the-greatest-things-ever-written-on-wrestling-message-boards/?p=5436167 I have no recollection of Russo coming back to WWE & getting fired after two days but it sounds hilarious. What happened?

I was thinking about my 70s, 80s, 90s etc question and how it doesn't really give as accurate a picture as you'd like. For example, I don't really see Tenryu as a #1 candidate for the 80s or 90s. But I can't come up with anyone offhand I'd put ahead of him from 85-95 other than maybe Fujiwara. I see Tenryu as a potential #1 candidate but you wouldn't see that looking at "best of" lists for the specific calendar decades. So screw the decades. Who had the best 10+year run and when was it (pick your own parameters)? Who had the best 10 year run and when was it? Who had the best 5 year run and when was it? Who had the best 3 year run and when was it? Who had the best 2 year run and when was it? Who had the best single year and when was it? Edit And feel free to be as specific as you desire. If you want to say for example Kawada from 12/3/93-12/6/96 is the best 3 year peak that is totally encouraged. You don't have to say 1/94-1/97.

I can't see putting Hashimoto at #1 but I have been thinking about him as possibly the best Japanese wrestler. Right now I think I'd go Tenryu but there are a few people I'd consider and Hashimoto is one of them. Hash has a murders row list of great matches against weird opponents like Zangiev, Tenryu, Chono, Mutoh, Choshu, Jushin Liger, Hiroshi Hase, Nobuhiko Takada, Yoshiaki Fujiwara, Kazuo Yamazaki, Steven Regal, and others I'm forgetting off the top of my head. Its a pretty diverse group of dudes that grows larger when you start adding tags in. It's one thing to have 8 great matches with Mitsuharu Misawa. Having a great match with Victor Zangiev in his first match in front of 50,000 people is another thing altogether. He was a great ace/defender of New Japan. Great in long matches, short matches, singles, tags, etc. No one ever talks about his selling but he was a vastly underrated seller while maintaining his badass aura. Was one of the best big show main event spectacle workers ever but would also bust his ass in random indy's in front of 25people. I love Hash. I want to put him #1 but there are like 3-10 guys I would put ahead of him right this second.

I actually would put Maeda on the short list of "Most exciting wrestlers of the 80s" so we are worlds apart there

The "Best 80s Worker" got me thinking about breaking this stuff down even further and I figured we could take a look at Japan first. Which Japanese wrestler will you rank highest? Which Japanese wrestlers do you expect to make your list? Who was the best of the 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s, 2010s to come out of Japan? Who was your favorite Ace? Who was your favorite top challenger? Who was your favorite under the radar guy? Who was the best at their peak? Who has disappointed you the most?

Same as Loss's list only without Satomura or Yoshida. Which is more my footage gaps than them not being terrific in the things I've seen.

This match was way better than I expected even with all the praise. Fujiwara no selling the first headbutt, casually walking over and headbutting the steel rod connecting the post & turnbuckle and then casually getting back in the ring with a smirk on his face was awesome. Best 65/66 year old has to be Fujiwara or Satanico.

Didn't know where else to put this. So. True story. I just found out about the Hustle Promotion. I didn't follow wrestling at all for a long time and I completely missed the entire promotion. I don't recall seeing any real discussion of it here since I've been coming back around. So I was poking around on prowrestlinghistory and I was like fuck it lets look at this Hustle promotion. Then I saw matches like: Bill Goldberg vs Naoya Ogawa Steve Corino vs CW Anderson Wataru Sakata vs Kevin Randleman ANd then its like Toshiaki Kawada & Shinjiro Ohtani vs Yingling the Erotic Terrorist, Fujin, & Raijin with Kawada overcoming the erotic terror. Scott Norton vs The Hustle Frog The Great Muta & Akebono vs Toshiaki Kawada & Kawada's "Father" The Esperanza (Nobuhiko Takada) vs Razon Ramon Hard Gay So um, what the fuck was Hustle all about? What is worth watching? Someone explain this insanity to me. I walked into this blind.

It will be a race to see who votes Gilbert the highest Loss, because he is a lock for my list. I love his early 90s indy run. It just just full of random stuff like Gilbert & Stan Lane vs Cactus Jack & Terry Funk or Gilbert & Madusa vs Cactus & Luna Vachon and they turn out to be wildly entertaining. Gilbert is a guy who managed to have a really memorable career but is still one of the biggest "What If's" in wrestling. He was so smart and so talented. He reminds me of the 80s/early 90s version of Brian Pillman. But obviously with a much longer career than PIllman. In a perfect world, we'd be talking about Eddie Gilbert as a top 20 level guy. He's not that. But he's easily top 100.

Ok I'm sold. Specific match recommendations?

It depends on the wrestler and what the footage I've seen tells me. Sangre Chicana is someone I'll rank really high based on limited footage, especially limited footage of his peak. But I can say the 2 best matches I've seen were Sangre Chicana matches and his performance was really the driving factor in making them the best matches I've ever seen. That means a lot to me. Getting to see the Satanico title match the day after the MS-1 match from 83 means a lot because here he is the day after having the 9/23 match and he turns around and has great match worked in a totally different style. In the 80s matches, either singles or trios he ALWAYS stands out as the star of the match. I also probably liked the title match against Mendoza more than anyone else. And the handicap vs Andre and trios with Mil Mascaras. Anyway, Sangre will rank high, but I don't think there's enough out there to put him at #1 so I'm not considering him that high. El Satanico IS a guy I'm considering for #1. A lot of that is based on the limited amount of footage from the 80s set. But I didn't want to haphazardly throw him at #1 without looking into it. So I've tried to watch as much as I possibly can and have thought about him more than anyone else over the course of this project. Because I do think there's enough out there to put him at #1. Mad Dog Vachon is a lock to make my list based on limited footage. He was in some great matches for sure but there's not enough to justify a real case. But he connects with me like few other wrestlers do these days so I'm putting him at #100. I get Phil's point about Volk Han but I don't agree with it in Han's case. Han is a viable candidate for "best ever at his style" and worked an extremely difficult and limiting style relative to the rest of the wrestling world. But, since he had such few matches in his career, I do think people ranking him high should watch as much as possible. That is one of the reasons I'm watching all the Tamura matches and plan on watching all the Han matches. I do think a guy like Tamura has enough footage even though he worked under 115 matches in his entire career. There is definitely enough of a career arc and different phases of his career for him to rank really high for me. It will be interesting to compare to Han who basically showed up as a master and stayed that way till the end.

A ton of BattlArts but in particular Yuki Ishikawa vs Kazunari Murakami from 12/00 was online forever and isn't anymore. And everyone needs to see that match.

Satanico, El Hijo del Santo, Negro Casas, El Dandy, Pirata Morgan, Sangre Chicana, MS-1, Atlantis, Villano III, Blue Panther, Fuerza Guerrera, LA Park, Perro Aguayo are my locks. La Fiera, Emilio Charles Jr, Mocho Cota, Ringo Mendoza, Super Astro, Black Terry, Negro Navarro, Espanto Jr and Solar are possible candidates to make it/I want to watch more. Satanico is a #1 contender Santo & Casas could be anywhere from 5-15 El Dandy will be in my top 20 and I want to sneak Chicana in there as well. Pirata Morgan, Atlantis & Villano III will be anywhere from 25ish-50ish in that order. Fuerza, Park & Perro will be 2nd half of the list.

It is a neverending project in a lot of ways. My top 6 I feel really good about. But after that it gets more difficult for sure and I could make changes endlessly. There are a bunch of matches that didn't make that first draft because I either inexplicably forgot about them like Casas vs Santo from 97, Dandy vs Azteca from 90, and Maeda vs Takada from 88, wasn't sure on the dates like various Rose/Martel, Rose/Piper, Fujiwara/Sayama, Fujiwara/Maeda, Fabs/Moondogs, every BattlArts match, and in the case of Super Dragon vs Necro Butcher I just didn't watch it in time. I was putting this out there as a snapshot/rough draft. So I plan on revisiting this as I watch more stuff and may even extend it to a top 200 or switch it up and do "Top 100 Favorite Matches" list instead of best even if there would be some overlap. I also kinda, sorta, maybe, think we should do a top 100 matches poll after the GWE finishes up.

He's making my list for sure. I think the Sangre 83 match is the best match ever and it would feel weird to leave him off based almost solely on that criteria. He looks great as a member of the Infernales in in the 80s in trios matches. He has a few tag and trios matches against a tecnico Satanico in 89-90 and it is fucking awesome and you're just dying for them to have a singles hair match that never actually happens. Looking at his apuestas match list, has anyone seen MS-1 vs Pirata Morgan from 3/15/91

That's the match that hasn't moved from the top 3ish spots for my "favorite/best matches I've ever seen" pretty much since I first saw it almost 16 years ago. Every time I watch it I always expect to not love it as much as before but it never happens. A common phrase you'll hear about great long matches is "this went almost 40 minutes but it flew by" or some variation of that. The Queendom match is long and it feels like a long match. But I mean that in the best possible way. They had a big story to tell and pulled it off. Its like the Lawrence of Arabia of wrestling matches with Akira Hokuto as Lawrence and Shinobu Kandori as Sherif Ali.

This video was genuinely frightening. I cannot believe this was real. HOW WAS THIS REAL?