ohtani's jacket

To me it's nowhere near as bad as the Five Knuckle Shuffle, the People's Elbiw, the Worm or the Stinkface as he doesn't have to stop to signal if. As a move, it's better than the Bronco buster.

Really? Ross wouldn't play off Ventura at all. I much prefered Tony and Jesse.

The 619 takes up about 5 seconds of a Rey match. It's usually the set-up for the West Coast Pop. I don't see how it's the focal point of his matches.

I actually find the set-up for the 619 is pretty good most of the time. It only looks bad when the opponent doesn't fall into the ropes well. Of course, you've got to ignore the fact it happens in every match, but that's not hard to do.

It's a shame we don't have more footage of Albert "Rocky" Wall or Gwyn Davies, who were the two dominant heel British Heavyweight Champions of the era. We don't even have that much heel Pat Roach. I guess I would take Jumbo over the likes of Wayne Bridges and Tony St. Clair, and probably Ray Steele though it pains me to say it. Tibor and Veidor I personally like more. In the lighter weights, you'd have to consider Sid Cooper, Bobby Barnes, Steve Wright, Bert Royal, Vic Faulkner, Mike Marino, Bobby Ryan, Jeff Kaye, Pete Roberts, Brian Maxine, and guys like Peter Szacaks, Adrian Street, Abe Ginsberg and Peter Preston if we had more footage. It's crazy how many good workers there were. Add to that the huge amount of depth in Mexico and even a Joshi worker like Yumi Ikeshita and it's a lot less cut and dry that Jumbo is an automatic lock for the top 10. It's hard to imagine that El Faraon, Perro Aguayo, Fishman, Sangre Chicana, Ray Mendoza, etc. weren't great in the mid to late 70s.

I would have to watch more 70s Jumbo to get a fix on how good I think he is, but when comparing him to WoS workers the fairest comparison is first and foremost with heavyweights. The lightweights through to the middleweights leave him for dead in terms of skill, and he's nowhere near as technically skilled as the best British heavyweights as he works a more basic style of matwork. We don't have a lot of their title matches in tape though compared to the Jumbo title matches we have. I'm sure there ate things he is better at than the British heavyweights though. I will rewatch some of his stuff.

Parv is going to hate most of those matches. Getting him to watch Tamura vs. Kohsaka is like trying to convince him that A Love Supreme is one of the greatest lps ever recorded. Take my advice, Parv. Watch this match -- http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xb8085_volk-han-vs-yoshihisa-yamamoto-ring_sport If that does nothing for you, nothing will.

I found my 2006 run through of all the UWF shows, including each of the Suzuki matches -- http://web.archive.org/web/20070319060803/www.smarkschoice.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=144244&sid=68cda17fb5ed6375519d93d96c244584

This fell apart for me in the third fall. The first two falls I thought were good and I couldn't understand why this had been so divisive, but the third fall as a spluttering mess. Those table spots were the worst. Absolute crap. I didn't feel there was anything terrible about the first two falls, but the opening fall was clearly front heavy with two many nearfalls they'd have been better off putting into the final caida. I also would have liked to have seen Manami submit to end the second fall, but nobody ever submits in Joshi. Aside from the shitty finish, I liked the contributions Hasegawa and Takako made. I'm happy to see that Takako is still a wrestler I can get into after all these years.

That would be good. John mentioned some 60-70 matches. Like most people, I've probably only seen a quarter of that. There's other kinds of stuff out there too. There's the Portland stuff, around 400 British matches. There's even conclusions you can probably make about lucha workers. I suppose with all those things considered he would probably be in many people's top 10, but I can't escape the feeling when I watch his matches that he's a second or third year guy and so on. I have a tough time rating him against seasoned pros.

Bert Royal vs. Steve Taylor (10/22/75) Steve Taylor is the older brother of Dave Taylor and the oldest son of legendary Heavy Middleweight Eric Taylor. This is the only footage we have of him from his prime. There are a few more matches from Reslo in the early 80s and a couple of tag matches from the late 80s, but that’s it. He was a capable grappler as you can imagine from his lineage, but this was a four round Bert Royal exhibition similar to the Tibor Szacaks and Mike Marino bouts I’m always talking about. It’s easy to forget how long Royal had been around. He was already in his mid-40s here and had been wrestling on television for twenty years. Perhaps that’s why Dale Martin was struggling so badly in the early 70s. As much as I love this 70s stuff, and as decent a bout as this was, there were guys on top who appeared in the first television broadcast in 1955. That’s an extraordinarily long time to push the same wrestlers. Forgetting all that, there was some neat grappling in this, Taylor looked good, and Royal was rocking his mid-70s moustache. John Naylor vs. Bill Ross (2/25/76) This was a neat opportunity to see one of the top Scottish lightweights of the day, Bill Ross. The Northern guys didn’t appear on television all that often since most of the tapings were from areas where Dale Martin promoted, and a lot of the Northerners had business interests which kept them from venturing too far from Scotland and the North of England, hence why people only ever read about George Kidd’s World Lightweight Title defences instead of getting to see them, so this was a neat chance to see a guy who along with Kidd and Jim McKenzie was considered one of the best of the Northern guys. Naylor was his usual mixed bag, but Ross was a lot of fun and it was cool seeing his specialties. It’s always good to put a match to a face, so all in all we’re lucky to have this on tape. Kendo Nagasaki vs. Roy St Clair (5/25/76) If there’s one thing I’ve noticed about British historians it’s that they tend to have an over-inflated opinion of Kendo Nagasaki’s working ability. Maybe it’s nostalgia or looking at things through rose coloured glasses, or perhaps he was better in the 60s when he was working the halls and kept off television, but at any rate there’s nothing on tape to support the idea that he was an elite worker. Mind you, neither was McManus so I suppose it doesn’t really matter. This was a competitive squash with a lot of public warnings and crowd heat and even a bit of blood from Roy St. Clair’s lip. If there’s one thing I like about Nagasaki it’s his finisher. Along with Roach’s finisher it was one of the nastier moves of the era and looked like a knockout blow every time. Romany Riley vs. Rex Strong (4/6/76) Strong was brought into the business by the legendary Prince of Darkness, Dirty Dominic Pye, in the Blackpool area, and was more than proficient in the dark arts of rule-bending. He also spent time in Bill Riley’s gym, not that you’d be able to guess judging by his technical ability. If you want to see a big, bad, bald heavyweight who looks like he could be a henchman in every B-film ever made then Strong is the guy for you. He cheats the entire bout long and the grannies get pissed. Bread and butter stuff, but everyone gets their money’s worth. Mick McManus vs. Catweazle (5/5/82) This was McManus’ final ever bout. I’m not sure why Catzweale was chosen as his opponent, but both men but in a considerably earnest attempt at wrestling a good match. McManus fights the clock at the end to force a result, but can’t quite make it and the bell goes to draw time on his career. A ten bell salute follows and a backstage interview with some World of Sport guy where they drink beer together and toast McManus’ career. Unfortunately, the sound quality is terrible and it’s difficult to make out what McManus is saying, but he seems to take a sort of retrospective and philosophical look back on his career even the cheating. The beer is a nice touch.

These are all matches against NWA World Heavyweight Champions. What was he like against other opposition? I'll admit that part of my questioning stems from a dislike for "best in the world" hyperbole (even though I sometimes use it myself), but Jumbo being one of the best workers from the 70s is an old line from when there was far less footage circulating and something that needs reexamining.

All right. I still think it's cheating though!

What matches does Jumbo have in the 70s where he looks like a top 10 worker in the world? In the Brisco matches you reviewed he was inferior to Inoki and Baba.

Kick, kick, kick, single leg Boston... this was a match that highlighted the crappiness of Yumiko Hotta. Manami tried her best to make this memorable but unfortunately that meant her lying around selling a lot while Hotta bored the crap out of me. Fairly standard stretch run, and a botched finish which Hotta clearly affected by raising her shoulders off the mat. Really poor compared to the Kandori bout.

I don't think Santo and Blue Panther were rivals to the extent that Santo and Casas were. Espanto Jr and Black Shadow Jr were Santo's two biggest rivals in the UWA outside of Casas. Black Terry and Fuerza probably have more of a claim to being Santo career rivals than Panther. Santo vs. Casas definitely peaked with their '97 hair vs. mask match. With Dandy/Satanico we're missing their two hair matches from '88. Casas vs. Dandy is another obvious pick. Sangre Chicana vs. Perro and Villano III deserve a mention as well. My favourite Panther rivalry was with Atlantis. I also love Atlantis vs. Emilio.

This belongs back in the Rey thread.

For the record, I didn't watch the 9/25 Mysterio vs. Tajiri match. That's definitely the best of the three matches they had around that time, though the circumstances surrounding the finish kind of reduce it to another chapter in their feud rather than a stand alone good-to-great match.

We have the exact same pick for the exact same reason. My first thought is Misawa/Jumbo but the fact that it never had a true conclusion the way Jumbo/Tenryu did and kinda just kept going after the climax of it on 6/8/90 makes me lean towards Tenryu/Jumbo as my true favorite Feud. 6/8/90 wasn't meant to be the climax. It was more like the first act turning point in a screenplay.

But they had two more matches on 10/11/89 and 4/19/90 and would have no doubt had more if Tenryu hadn't left.

It's a bit redundant at this stage, but the 6/23 Sasuke/Delphin vs. Togo/Teioh/Shiryu handicap match is another fun M-Pro match. I actually thought the beatdown Kaientai put on Sasuke and Delphin was the best heel beatdown during the feud. There's a neat split screen of Togo ripping the shit out of Delphin's mask while Teioh and Shiryu put Sasuke through a table. I'd like to see a good M-Pro singles match though. The 8/3 Naniwa vs. Shiryu match was all kinds of disappointing.

This was a match I never really liked in the past, possibly because I was always more of a Hokuto fan and this isn't a match where she asserts a lot of control over the bout, but I liked it more this time round. It doesn't break a lot of new ground, which is probably its biggest flaw, but it's not a spotfest. They spend more time selling during the stretch run than they do hitting spots, and Toyota no-selling the finish is patently false. I get the feeling that if the workers are uninteresting to people that they kind of gloss over what's happening and don't pay a lot of attention. There was far too much detail in this to call it a spotfest and way too much selling. Toyota gets such a bad rap.

It's just a way of classifying matches. Fun Good Very good Great Excellent I suppose you could look at it as average with a more positive spin on it.

Atlantis vs. Emilio Charles Jr. (8/12/88) This marks the first appearance on the set of Emilio Charles Jr. Emilio, or "El Chino" as he as affectionately called because of his curly blonde hair, was born in Monterrey, Nuevo Leon, the third son of Sergio Emilio Charles Lizcano y doña Cora Garduño Núñez. His father was a professional wrestler by the name of Emilio Charles Sr who had fought many of the great fighters of the golden age like El Santo, Black Shadow, Rolando Vera and Tarzan Lopez, and had gained huge respect for his professionalism, great technique and creativity in the practice of the sport. Charles Sr had contribute two beautiful and effective creations to lucha libre, namely the "rana" and "angelito," moves which are still used today. Unfortunately, Emilio Jr never got to see his father wrestle as he was forced to retire when Emilio was still very small due to a serious elbow injury that required screws to allow him to regain mobility in the arm. His father then decided to become a promoter of boxing and wrestling in his native San Luis Potosí as well as his residence of Monterrey. Despite never seeing him wrestle, Emilio had great admiration for his father. He knew how important his career had been and had heard from contemporary wrestlers the stories and anecdotes of what a great wrestler his father was. From the age of 13, Emilio dreamed of emulating his father's feats, but was afraid to tell him that he wanted to leave school and become a wrestler. Emilio Sr. was a man of strong ideas and strong discipline who could subdue his sons with a simple look and had a passion for books. Emilio was sure that his father would refuse to allow him to quit his studies, but don Emilio underdone a radical change since the death of his youngest son, Carlos, in a car accident. It took Emilio a few days to summon the nerve to talk with his father, but to his great surprise don Emilio accepted the arguments of his son and advised him to completely devote himself to training, noting that if he was going to be a fighter that he had to be the best, which meant training under Diablo Velazco. Taking his father's words to heart, Emilio spent most of his time in the gym. He would awake with great enthusiasm at 5:30 am and begin training at 6 o'clock for two or three hours before returning in the evening for Olympic wrestling classes at the Arena Coliseo de Guadalajara gym. Eventually, Emilio earned his first opportunity to get into the ring professionally at a show to honour his maestro. Without his knowing, don Emilio was in attendance and discovered that his son had enough qualities to fully devote himself to the difficult profession of professional wrestling. Such was his excitement that the first thing he did was tell his beloved wife Cora that their son was going to be a wrestler. Early on, Emilio got his start working at Arena Naucalpan. The most high profile of his early bouts was probably his 9/29/83 hair vs. mask match against Villano IV in Veracruz. Sometime around 1985 he began working for EMLL. His early run in the company was in a trios with Javier Llanes and Rino Castro. Slightly chubbier in those days, Charles and Castro were agile fat men who moved fairly quickly, had a spectacular style and were somewhat aggressive for tecnicos. On 3/3/85, Charles and Castro culminated a feud with Comando Ruso I y II that saw the big men take the Comandos' hair. Emilio was then given the opportunity to exploit his aggressive style by engaging with peers on the rudo side, eventually pairing with Tony Arce and Vulcano as a costumed trios team known as Los Destructores. Los Destructores were given a huge push at the beginning of 1988 when they defeated Los Bucaneros for the Mexican National Trios Titles on Jan 31st. The Destroyers held onto the belts for most of the season despite strong challenges from the Infernales, Brazos and Bucaneros. It was during this period of success for the Destructores that a slimmed down Emilio was given his first singles push. He took his first big singles scalp with a hair victory over Javier Cruz on 6/24/88 and immediately went after Atlantis' NWA World Middleweight title. The pair wrestled on at least five known occasions between July and September, trading the title three times. This match, originally thought to be from 1984, is believed to be Emilio's second title match victory over Atlantis. Atlantis would go on to have an incredible unbeaten reign with the title from 1990 to 1993 where Charles was a frequent challenger and the two developed a strong rivalry notable for their signature exchanges with each other. Emilio enjoyed a period in the final part of the '88 season as a double champion before the Destructores dropped the trios titles to Los Temerarios at the end of November. He then made way for new star Angel Azteca as middleweight champ in April, but would continue his strong singles push through 1989 in a memorable feud with El Dandy.

elliot, I didn't love this, but it's a long match with plenty of Santo vs. Satanico exchanges: