Johnny Guitar

I'm not knocking WCW. To me they were a world promotion.

I guess it was a combination of drawing and Vince putting the squeeze on arenas not to book WCW. Who know's? Looking through the WCW results at The History of WWE is fascinating, in regards to where they chose to run shows and how often. In their history they promoted in nearly every state in the US at one point or another. In some places they went once and never went back. Some places they went years between visits. They really illustrate the chaotic nature of the company and what a total mess they were at times. Some of the things that struck me: I didn't realise that they managed to kill of The Omni in 93. A show in October drew just 800 paid. The Thanksgiving and Christmas Day shows were subsequently cancelled (although they drew 3000 in Denver on Christmas Day night). They tried running Thanksgiving 94, but that was cancelled. and didn't run again until a Nitro on New's day 96. They didn't run in Baltimore for over 18 months from 93 until Superbrawl 5 in Feb 95(which drew a big house). They didn't run a show in Norfolk for over 18 Months from Mar 94 until World war 3 in November 1995 (which also drew a big crowd). They didn't run a show in Richmond for over 2 years from 94 until a Nitro in Jun 1996. They never ran a show in Greensboro at the Coliseum after 1992 (it was being re-modeled in 1993) and never ran in Greensboro at all after 1 show in 94 at the Coliseum's Special event center. Instead going to the smaller LJM Colisieum in neighbouring Winston Salem for shows. They drew 8000+ for a Nitro in Oct 95 and drew 17000 for a Nitro in Jan 97. But didn't have a single show in Chicago in the interem, despite business picking up. With the exception of SlamBoree 94 which drew nearly 5000. A house show in April 95, which drew just 900 and a house show in jun 96 which drew 5000+. They pretty much avoided Philly between 93 and 97. What amazed me is these are all towns I think, or thought of, as WCW strongholds. WCW 1992 might not have been the best year business wise. But it looks like the Attitude era compared to the latter half of 1993. Business tanked! How Bischoff kept his job I'll never know.

Shouldn't we look more closely at 92 then? 1992 WCW was fantastic from a wrestling standpoint. Kip Frey was a placeholder for Watts, and Dusty put the title on Sting after building the issue with Luger for a few months. This should have worked better than it did. Rude was probably the hottest heel in all of wrestling during Sting's run, but it was a weird time. While Sting and Rude did have a big house show run, they didn't have a PPV match during this time with Sting defending. Sting, as Jerry mentioned, didn't really get a main event match on PPV. It didn't light the world on fire, but it wasn't going to light the world on fire. WCW was so bad and did so much damage in 1991 that they created a hole that would take a few years to fully dig their way out of. I don't know that they made their situation worse in '92, like they would in '93, but they didn't really make it better either. Really, in '92, Sting was only put in a position to carry the company for about three months. He beat Luger, Rude was groomed for him in the short term, with Vader being groomed for him over summer. He had Cactus as a one-shot deal. I think they could have built up some other guys to make a run at him too. Frey's vision was a good one - and a breath of fresh air compared to Herd - but he didn't have enough time to see it through before Watts came in. Watts is someone who properly understood what was wrong with WCW and prescribed the wrong medicine to fix it. He came in with opinions on talent from 1987 and some of the people he pushed weren't really the best choices. Not just Doc and Gordy, but he also brought back Dick Slater! By early 1993, he was focused more on Barry Windham, Sting and Vader, was bringing Flair back, was pushing Pillman in a more prominent role and was signing some good young guys like Benoit, Scorpio and Regal. I think he was on a better path, but he had burned so many bridges in WCW's corporate structure, and it was painfully clear by that point that it wasn't going to work. I think a big problem was running Battlebowl at Starrcade instead of Sting/Luger. That may have been too soon, but nearly all of Lex's date's were used up and he disappeared for 2 months. Waiting till February lost alot of the momemtum WCW had for Sting/Luger, coming of Clash 17. Which was pretty hot. This era was so great from an in-ring point of view. And there was ton's of potential. Shame it didn't play out longer. Saying that. Everyone had been wanting Watts to come in for years to rescue the company. The fact that he didn't. Wrecked most of the postive stuff that was going on and quit after he was demoted. After he realised he'd made mistake's talent and booking wise and was taking positive steps to correct it. Is also a shame.

I think what benefits the Warrior's perception. Certaintly amongst casual fans who remember that era. Is that he wasn't put in a situation where he was exposed. He wasn't on live TV every week. So the stuff that everyone remembers about him is the PPV matches, where as you say he was not only highly produced, but he was against guys who knew what they were doing. It was also a time when wins and losse's meant something. So beating Hogan and Savage clean, back to back at mania. Makes him look like a world beater. What's the general consenus on the Career Match nowadays? I know that the Savage/Liz reunion is considered a high point as far as long term booking/payoff's go. Especially as it ended up leading to Savage/Jake. Which is another high water mark in company history. For years the Career Match was considered top 5 material at Wrestlemania, but so much water has flowed under the bridge since then.

Lodi was entertaining. I thought most of the rest of the Flock was a deep inside joke by Scotty that wasn't terribly funny. The Riggs storyline was a weaker, more openly homoerotic rehash of the Raven-Dreamer feud. The "edgy" just came across as watered down, weak WCW stuff. The feuds with Benoit and Page... eh. The break up of the Flock was obvious stuff seen a mile away, and Saturn turning on him was much more interesting when it was Rick Steiner turning on Kevin Sullivan. I don't mind mediocre mid card groups. They help fill space. Just thought the Flock was weak and uninteresting at the time. Scotty was trying to hard. John I'm blanking on a few details but wasn't Dreamer/Raven built around them being child hood friends who ended up hating each other over Beulah Raven was unhappy that his "close childhood friend" grew up and got some pussy rather than stay with Raven. Riggs was a pretty boy that Raven wanted to join his "flock" of low life street hustler types. Riggs put off Raven's advances, and had to pay for it. That was the funny thing about Scherer going batshit over Bruce pointing out Raven was telling storylines with underlying homoerotic themes: after Bruce wrote it, Scotty told Wade the equiv of "Someone actually gets it." Granted, the Bingo Hall Circle Jerk wouldn't get it, and Scherer as the King of the Bingo Hall Circle Jerk *really* didn't want to get it. And Scotty might not now even want to cop to it. But at the time, he did and it was pretty funny. Nope. John I thought The Flock were great. Whilst I can see it now. The homoerotic subtext completley flew over my head at the time. I was more focused on the drug aspect of the gimmick. The Varisty Club was great! It made no sense . A bunch of college jocks following a devil worshipper, but hey! Actually speaking of Sullivan. He might get alot of comments in this thread about The Varisty Club or The Dungeon of Doom. But The Slaughterhouse (Sullivan, Cactus & Buzz Sawyer) needs some love.

I've always seen the 90's boom as the swansong of the territories, as alot of the guys featured had some sort of territory experience. You kind of forget that Austin met Lawler in Memphis or that Raven met Piper in Portland back in the day.

I fully believe they turned Demolition heel to protect the Road Warriors. To keep the fans from having a real choice. I don't think the WWF had a choice about turning Demolition heel once The Road Warriors came in. I live in the Uk. At the time we got most of the WWF programming and some of the WCW programming, depending on where you lived. On thing we did get, even if you didn't have access to TV, was all the Apter Mags. Even though the put over Demolition, it was always in the shadow of the Road Warriors. So when the LOD showed up in the WWF, even as a dumb kid mark, I knew they were "better". US fans must have beleived that more so, as they seen more of the Warriors. I really don't see how you could have kept the two teams apart for any period of time. Demolition/Warriors was one of those PWI dream matches that everyone wanted to see. It made sense that when the Warriors entered the WWF that they would go after Demolition straight away. Even if The Warriors didn't jump ship. I think the days of Demolition remaining faces were bleak. The top 3 teams were them, The Harts and the Rockers. Who were all faces. The heel side was pretty weak. Somebody had to switch. No one was going to buy The Rockers as heels. So it was either them or The Harts who turned. The fans still didn't fully trust The Harts at the time. But who looks a more sympathetic babyface? Bret Hart or Bill Eadie? Old and Fat? Eadie and Darsow weren't ripped. But they weren't blobs. Darsow must have been at least the same age as Hawk & Animal.

Yep. It got quite abit of play at the time in the sheets and mags. Do we know what caused it? I remember some people at the time trying to play it off as Paul E. sending a message to Steve Austin. Which obviously wasn't the case. Those post match chairshots were brutal. That was straight up assult.

I love this angle. It feels like the swan song for early WCW. Going in you knew that Sting was going to get fucked over. Thats what Flair & Arn did. Fuck Sting over. They'd done it before and they'd do it again. Pillman had been Sting's friend in the past. But he'd gone heel with Austin. So he was untrustworthy. Arn & Flair had both been to the WWF for a quick run, whilst Sting & Pillman had stayed in WCW. These guys along with Luger and Eaton, were the only people with ties left to the early years of the company. After this people in WCW were linked with the WWF or ECW mainly. Flair, Arn & Pillman beating down Sting. Four guys who'd been with company for years. Everything that had happened since 1989, felt like it had been building to this moment.

Seth Rollins! Thats they other guy I was trying to think of. I agree about Joe. He's got natural storyline's with Punk, Bryan and Cena. They're all his friends who went onto fame and fortune in WWE and he got stuck in TNA. Crazy and bitter Joe out for revenge! Plus Austin likes him too. I know he doesn't have the body and all that, but Vince/WWE is gonna have to accept the fact that the talent pool is thin. And they'll have to take what they can get. I wasn't thinking so much about guys like Joe and Styles. Assuming them and guys like Storm, Roode, The Briscoes, Shelly, Sabin and the rest of their peer group all go to New York in the next few years and guys like Burke & The Hardys go back. Who's left after that? No one in ROH seems to have the same level of interest about them as the guys who were there from 2002 to 2007. Are people into Steen and Richards as much as they were Punk and Joe? TNA is TNA.They can't find their ass with both hands. Wasn't there a story recently that some guys like Austin and Funk were going to go down to FCW on their own volition to help out because they realise that wrestling is in deep shit talent wise for the future?

I remember hearing of this, but what were the details on that. Jericho mentioned in his first book that Pillman had pitched an idea of forming his own version of the Horsemen with Benoit, Eddy & Jericho called either "The Horsemen of the Apocalypse" or "The Generation X Horsemen". Presumedly after an angle where he and Benoit were either kicked out or turned on Ric & Arn. They kind of teased it on TV, but it all fell through when Pillman left. It got teased again briefly a year or so later. Supposedly this time it would've been Benoit, Malenko, Eddy & Regal. I guess politics got in the way that time.

I remember the massive amount of buzz this match created at the time. In fact this whole card had a massive buzz at the time. (Coupled with Slamboree the next month). It felt like WCW had turned a corner. The whole card was great. They'd drawn their biggest crowd (five figures)in North america since 1990. They had a bunch of good vet's Flair, Arn, Steamboat who could still go. Guy's in their prime, Sting and vader and guys with a future ,Austin, Pillman & Foley. Then along came Hogan. Which isn't totally fair. Because he drew them some money and got them some recognition. But man did he derail the momentum artisically, at least for a few years. Anyway about this match. Foley taking the nesta plunge off the ramp and Sags smacking him in the head with the snow shovel is brutal!

That would have been great! I always hoped they would go that direction with him. There was a brief period around Spring 97 where Regal briefly dropped the Lord moniker and WCW tried to down play his snobbish character. I think it was supposed to tie into the whole renegade horseman/apocalypse angle, which according to Jericho is an idea Pillman had pitched a couple of years before.

What are WWE going to do for talent over the next decade (and beyond)? Outside of Jon Moxley/Dean Ambrose there doesn't seem to be anyone in developmental that has a buzz about them. Although there may be some others that have potential that I'm not aware of. Hero & Claudio seem to be the last of the 2000's cast. There's a few guys in TNA* and ROH that are good and would be an asset to the roster, but no one on the level of Flair, Luger or Vader who when they jumped to the WWF you thought "Yep. They're a bona fide main eventer. I can see them headlining in New York". (Even if it didn;t end up working out). *Excluding Sting. there's probably some big paydays against various folks if he showed up fot the dream match factor. But he's not a long term solution. Is there anyone in TNA or ROH on the level of Austin or Jericho, who when they jumped you thought "They've got a ton of potential. I could see them headlining. Hell there at least a lock for the IC title". I'm guessing there's some guys on the indie's with potential, who I'm not aware of. At least I hope there is.

Apparently Shawn was nervous about doing the zipline, so Vince went first to prove it was safe.

Man! Sabu has totally turned into his uncle.

Fantastic review Loss! One thing I'd like to add is that i love the finish. When Bret goes for the Victory Roll, you instantly flashback to the KOTR finals against Bam Bam, and knowing thats how Bret won that match, you think he has this one sown up. And of course he doesn't. Thats how you swerve the audience in a good way. Something Russo never grasped. Anyway its that call back to a previous match that reminds you that wrestling is one long ongoing interconnected fabric. I love that stuff. I also think this match really kicked off one of the greatest long running stories in WWF history.

As cool as that was. What sticks in my mind is Randy Savage coming out too hug Bret. In an alternate universe Bret Hart vs Randy Savage was the greatest match in Wrestlemania history.

I think the answer to that is How successful WCW could have been this decade, if they'd stayed in business. For all WCW's faults. They are a million miles ahead of TNA. In the summer of 2002. Jericho, The Hardys, The Dudleys and Edge & Christian contracts all came up for renewal. If WCW was in business would they have jumped? If they did. Bang! goes most of the mid card. As psychically banged up as Austin is. When he had his falling out with Vince in 2002. Would he have at some point gone back to WCW? Who knows? Austin himself said he can still work, although not on a full time schcudle. But him showing up in WCW, some where down the line could be big business. This is interesting food for thought, but I'm not confident WCW would have had any clue how to use any of these guys. Hell we know they didn't know how to use Jericho the first time around and the tag team scene in WCW probably would have meant little. I agree, to an extent. Based on what we know about how WCW was run. Did WCW squander talent and fuck up big time? You bet. But there were moments of greatness. Both in the booking and wrestling. And even when the booking was piss poor for large stretches of time. WCW from 89 till Russo showed up had a good too great in ring product. And the last 3 months they seemed to be heading in the right direction, even though some things weren't perfect. Of course 11 years later, it's all a series of big what if's? on how WCW would have been since 2001. But honestly I can't believe it would have been worse than TNA|. Which is pure speculation on my part.

I think the answer to that is How successful WCW could have been this decade, if they'd stayed in business. For all WCW's faults. They are a million miles ahead of TNA. In the summer of 2002. Jericho, The Hardys, The Dudleys and Edge & Christian contracts all came up for renewal. If WCW was in business would they have jumped? If they did. Bang! goes most of the mid card. As psychically banged up as Austin is. When he had his falling out with Vince in 2002. Would he have at some point gone back to WCW? Who knows? Austin himself said he can still work, although not on a full time schcudle. But him showing up in WCW, some where down the line could be big business.

Or putting Melanie Pillman on live TV. Wrestling is some how capable of scraping the bottom of the barrell, and being the most thoughtless and tactless shit imaginable. Even when they have the oppurtinty to make themselves look good (or at least not look like complete cunts).

I've forgotten the in's and out's. Did Vince offer the TBS slot for sale because of pressure from Ted to produce a studio show, which Vince didn't want to do. Or did Vince being a stuborn bastard like he is, decide to cut his losse's and go with USA? Actually did he have the USA at this point? I know $1 mill was big coin in those days. But it must have seemed a worthwile risk for Crockett. By that point in time quite a few people, like The Funks and The Brisco's and Watts were saying that national; cable was the way to go. Was Watts in the picture to buy the slot? I know he got on the network the next year. But in 84 I can;t see anyone but Crockett, Watts or Fritz having the cash to pay Vince. Now that I think about it. A few years later no one would have had the cash to pay Vince.

Off the top of my head I can't think of any particular gimmick that I want to see in wrestling. I do wish wrestling was more on the ball with pop culture though. As far as incorparating it into the product. WWE normally doesn't pick up stuff till its at least 5 years old. Some times longer. Clint Eastwood got over as a bad ass anti hero face in the late 60's/early 70's as The Man with No Name & Dirty Harry. It took WWE over 25 years to push a similar character in that role. And to tie this into popular culture and Loss' point of a wrestler who just happen's to be gay, but it's no big deal. Look at The Wire. Omar is probably the most popular character in it. Certainly the most bad ass. Whilst is sexuality is certainly brought up in a negative light by other characters. At the same time they all acknowledge that he's dangerous, a threat and not to be taken lightly regardless of his sexual orientation.

Good point on the micro mangement. I've always felt that one of the pluse's that gets overlooked when people talk about WCW. Is that for the most part anyone who had made a name for themselves in the WWF, ECW or the indies was allowed to keep their gimmick, if they could legally do so. They weren't repackaged just for the hell of it like Vince does. If you had any kind of name value. You might not be booked to the best of your abilities, but you were unlikely to be buried and squashed just for shits and giggles. I always wonder what wrestling would be like today if WCW was still in business. People say "Well look at TNA", but to me TNa isn't even on the level of ECW, let alone WCW. For all WCW's faults. They had a history, as a conglomeration of the last of the territorie's (JCP going back to the 30's. Wrestling on TBS since the 70's etc). Drew some money, whether crowds or buyrates, even in down periods (Flair/Funk in 89, Flair/Sting in 90, Sting/Luger & Sting/Roberts in 92, Flair/Steamboat in 94). Had a better in ring product than the WWF, at least until Russo showed up, and a dedicated and enthusiastic fanbase.

You're right. After Hall & Nash left. Nearly all the people who had to re-sign that year (Shawn, Taker, Owen, Davey Boy), did so for 5 years. On a purely selfish level one of the things that annoyed me about Montreal is all the great matches, feuds and angle's we were deprived of with Bret leaving. Obviously the main one is the blow off with Austin at WM 14. But after that. There was feuds with Rock and Foley. Who were 2 guys he liked. Especially Rock. Of course they ended up main eventers anyway, but a feud with Bret on their way wouldn't have hurt. By the time those were over, along with probably some more matches with Austin & Taker. Guys like Angle, Jericho & Benoit would have been in the company. They'd have all been better off working with Bret, than they were HHH.