Johnny Sorrow

Not for nothing, but Alberto Del Rio is a really great babyface.

The thing is, the WWF treated both matches as virtually the same. Both had no build. And Muraco/ Orndorff SHOULD have had a build. When they announced the card, me and my pals were all, "Cool, Muraco vs. Orndorff" but that match didn't make or break one ticket sale. Unless Muraco and Paul had relatives in Long Island that night. And then the match sucked a giant cock, on top of everything. The Nassau part of Mania 2 was so fucking awful. And as we move on, I think the best lesson to be learned here is , if you want to piss me off and send me into a crazed argument, shit on Jimmy Valiant vs. Paul Jones and His Army.

I love Philadelphia.

I loved how the World Class announcers would generally take PY Chu Hi at face value while Lance Russell was all, "Who are you kidding, Hickerson?" Tommy Rich & Eddie Gilbert vs. Phil Hickerson & The Spoiler (Tennessee Street Fight 6/25/84) "This match fucking ruled. I remember the first time I saw Phil Hickerson on TV and I totally didn't buy into him being tough. He looked old, fat, and bald. I was a teenager at the time, so of course I was stupid as fuck. It was around 1984-85 during my yearly visit to spend a week with my family in Louisville. One of the highlights for me each visit was watching Memphis TV on the one or two Saturdays I was there. I don't recall much about Hickerson except what I mentioned before. But now, looking back? Holy shit, he was fucking awesome. This match was so great. What a bloody mess, I always loved that Memphis ringcover. It always looked like you could get Hepetitis off it. "

I love the Flair/ Chris Adams match from 2/3/84. Here's what I wrote about it at DVDVR when the Texas set came out. "I just started watching this one, and Ric Flair's entrance and pre-match stuff is just fucking incredible. It's all real subtle as he slightly acknowledges the couple of guys cheering for him, and slyly blows a kiss at some chick, as he walks to the ring. He's taking his time, being cool as this "Chris Adams" is to him, just another local hero/ flavor of the week. But since Sunshine is in the ring, he can't resist telling her over the mic, that she's "the only woman there not cheering for him." Adams is introduced to the screams of hundreds of women and he makes a point to let Flair know it. Flair keeps his swagger by ignoring Adams exists. The two come close to each other as the ref is about to ring the bell, but Flair is casually looking at Sunshine while flexing one pec at her. Awesome. The ref rings the bell, and Flair offers a handshake to Adams, as if to say, "Nothing personal, I'm the fucking champ. Let's get this exhibition on." The match starts and Flair is still more concerned about Sunshine, who looks to him to be about as easy to bang as any other chick, "but she's cheering for this Adams kid. Isn't that cute?" They start to have a straight forward wrestling match and Flair is outclassing him, even getting out of an armlock by lifting Adams up and gently sitting him on top of a turnbuckle corner in a show of "You're outclassed here, kid." Then Adams shows up Flair on a series of switchback armbars and holds and Flair starts to look a little concerned. Flair tries some fists and gets it right back and now the SHIT IS ON. Flair starts kicking his ass and Sunshine tries to get involved, but now Flair is all business kicking at her to get the fuck out of the way. They go at it tooth and nail and Flair even hits a Flop after an enziguri so fast it looked like he busted his nose and he sold it that way for a second. Adams hits the SUPERKICK out of nowhere and Flair hits the mat, but manages to roll toward the ropes as he lands. He escapes the pinfall with a foot on the ropes. They go at it awhile longer and Adams leaps facefront into the corner and springs back at Flair with a bodypress, the momentum rolls them over and wily Champ Flair hooks the leg and rolls him into a 3 count from the immobile Bronco Lubbich. Flair then is all worn out, has a new respect in his face for Adams, but is holding THE BELT. It's totally the Flair "I didn't expect THIS! Who is this kid?" match set-up and it works like a fucking charm. AWESOME match. "

Oh, between Mania 2 and Mania 3 Vince totally started making sure there were angles for almost everyone. And I'm not saying there weren't mid card angles in WWF at the time. I'm saying that for awhile there weren't a lot, compared to JCP, where it felt like everyone had a program. Compare Mania 2 to Mania 3 and it's night and day. But in 86 what sold tickets was "WWF" and "Hulk Hogan", until the last few months of the year when Piper turned. Hogan's best drawing angle in 86 was the Orndorff fued, because there was a great angle behind it, but people still would go to shows if Hogan was on the card as Hulk Machine. In 86 it really felt like WWF was coasting on grabbing names, giving them nothing to do, being a sensation/ hip deal, and thinking that was good enough. Come late 86/ early 87 Vince really started turning it around as far as lots of angles. And I remember Meltzer reporting that Vince considered not doing a Mania 3 because 2 sucked so bad. Mania 2 Paul Orndorff vs Don Muraco : No one cared Randy Savage vs. George Steele :This was a program Jake Roberts vs George Wells : No one cared Mr. T (w/ Joe Frazier & the Haiti Kid) defeated Roddy Piper (w/ Lou Duva & Bob Orton Jr.) in a boxing fight : This was a program, but no one really wanted to watch a fake boxing match. Fabulous Moolah vs Velvet McIntyre : No one cared Crpl. Kirshner vs. Nikolai Volkoff: Thewy tried to make us care by saying "FLAG MATCH" but no one cared Andre the Giant won a 20-man WWF/NFL battle royal : This was over as fuck because of Perry being in it. British Bulldogs vs Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake: This had a program, as it was the Bulldogs "last chance". Ricky Steamboat vs Hercules : No one cared Adrian Adonis vs Uncle Elmer : No one cared Terry & Dory Funk Jr. vs. Tito Santana & the Junkyard Dog: Best match on the card, and had a program, as JYD was feuding with the Funks and Tito was his best friend. Hulk Hogan vs King Kong Bundy : Of course, this had a program. Starrcade 86 Tim Horner & Nelson Royal defeated Don & Rocky Kernolde: No one cared Brad Armstrong vs Jimmy Garvin : This had some TV build Hector Guerrero & Baron Von Raschke vs Shaska Whatley & the Barbarian: This was part of the Valiant/ Jones angle Krusher Khruschev & Ivan Koloff vs Bobby Jaggers & Dutch Mantel: These two teams had some TV dedicated to the feud Wahoo McDaniel vs Rick Rude: Also, part of the Valiant/ Jones angle Sam Houston vs Bill Dundee: This had some tv dedicated to it , but no one cared. Jimmy Valiant vs. Paul Jones: The final match in a 3 year long feud. And set up Manny and Rude as a team at the end. Big Bubba vs Ron Garvin: Garvin and Cornette had been feuding Tully Blanchard vs Dusty Rhodes : Goes without saying The Road Warriors vs the Midnight Express: Goes without saying Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson vs Arn & Ole Anderson: Goes w/out saying Ric Flair vs Nikita Koloff : Goes w/out saying (And even though they were all kayfabe, only hardcore fans bought the mags back then.)

It makes perfect sense and explains exactly what I was talking about. WWF circa Mania 2-3 had a lot of names, but didn't do anything with them. It's meaningless depth to have name guys with no programs. And you're right, around 87-88 Vince DID do a lot more as far as giving almost everyone programs and a reason for their programs. But your argment is wrong. Names with no reason for fans to get invested outside of just names are just window dressing and no one cared. And that's fine. But a stacked card is a card stacked with wrestlers having matches that fans care about, not the names. And people flocked to see the WWF in 86 because they generally didn't care about all that. They went because The WWF itself was huge. Vince managed to convince the general public that the only wrestling that mattered was the WWF, and it was a selling point just to go to see the WWF. If Hogan was on the card then bonus. You yourself said that "Memphis is a mystery" to you, as you can't understand why it was so successful. You then poo poo'd it aside as just a territory, but I think that's telling. You're having a hard time grasping that it isn't the fame or number of the names, that defines "depth". And shit like "Mr. Sorrow" stinks. Don't do that, chief.

I bet Will cooked and ate a whole pizza while reading that.

That's it. And it was Victor Rivera I was thinking of, not Spiros Arion.

The Dusty set is fucking awesome, and the 4 Horsemen in the 80's mega set is amazing.

Speaking of that California promotion, does anyone else remember it or have any details? I can't find anything. I THINK John Tolos was in it and Spiros Arion as well but I could be completely wrong. I do remember a team called Hollywood Blondes.

Cabana had Hornswoggle on his latest show and it's fantastic. He has road stories of him, Mark Henry, Khali, and Diavari sharing a car; and they put to rest douchebags who take their dislike of Hornswoggle to weird levels. http://tsmradio.com/coltcabana/

There was a promotion out of California that was shown on the legendary U68 in 1986 that was one of the worst things I've ever seen. I watched it anyway, but it was the shits. I'd imagine it was the fact that Dave pretty much shit all over the AWA in the Observer back then. If you were gonna judge the "Big Three" that year then, yeah, the AWA was the worst of the three. But that's acting like there were no other promotions.

Extreme Rising is that deal that Shane Douglas has been putting on. I haven't really thought of it as a promotion, though I guess it kinda is.

By the way, never leave out the fact that just the name "WWF" sold tickets in the Mid Eighties. So comparing roster to roster as a sole basis as to how many tickets were sold is missing that solid fact. And, as far as how much would a guy get pushed if he left one to go to the other wasn't always done by how big a draw had been elsewhere. Certainly on the WWF side of things. The collecting of names without storylines behind them fighting worked for Vince, obviously. But the JCP roster had guys in programs all the way down to the opening card sometimes. And people cared about all these angles. So to me, that's a better roster, one that can work like that. Let me put it this way, and this is just using me and my pal Joey as an example. We grew up as WWF fans and didn't get NWA on TV until 84. And I'm not claiming to represent all fans here, but a lot. In 1986 we went to a firehouse to watch Mania 2 on closed circuit TV, even though the Nassau Coll was only an hour and a half away. In 1986, we also convinced my Dad to drive us from New Jersey to Greensboro, NC to spend THANKSGIVING at Starrcade 86. Joey's folks understood our devotion to these stories that they let him spend the holiday away from his family, with me and my Old Man, also not celebrating with loved ones. (Third row tickets too, bitches ) Again, I'm not claiming we were a representation of most fans. I'm just saying, that a lot of the guys on Crockett you've seen over the last few years that you "don't get" or think couldn't possibly be important, were. And in a big way.

Y'know, I love Nash. The guy cracks me up. Considering that almost every wrestler out there is a bullshit artist, it cracks me up that there's a section of fans who just get so legit pissed at him for being a bullshit artist. And he plays off it to this day for his own shits and giggles. Anyway, by the time this video happened, I had pretty much stopped watching WCW so I never heard any of this. It's the Thunder that's the last day of Nash as a booker, and he just MST3K's the show from the announce table. It's some funny shit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ymfJ6JFLL0

Yeah, to a lot of people, including your's truly, live performance is the most important aspect.

I was just coming here to post that. For those who might not click a link without knowing what's there..it's David Lee Roth talking about Rikidozan. It's fucking great.

I didn't know till just now that the Nassau show got 16,500 and the LA show 14,500. Do you think those 16,000 people were there mainly for Piper vs. Mr. T? Probably. They were there for WrestleMania The hot Piper/ Orndorff feud, the hot Andre/ Bundy feud, and the hot Muraco/ Steamboat feud. All feuds that had stories behind them. Oh, and the fact that WWF was the hottest ticket in town around then. The hot Piper/ Orndorff feud, and the hot Savage/ Tito feud with Jesse actually wrestling. All feuds that had stories behind them. Oh, and the fact that WWF was the hottest ticket in town around then. The hot Piper/ Orndorff feud and the hot Muraco/ Steamboat feud. All feuds that had stories behind them. Oh, and the fact that WWF was the hottest ticket in town around then. The hot Muraco/ Steamboat feud. A feud that had a story behind them. Oh, and the fact that WWF was the hottest ticket in town around then. And the fact that it was Australia. Yeah? So? Everyone drew against Hogan back then, especially Orndorff. None of that has anything to do with the fact that no one cared about Orndorff/ Muraco at Mania 2 because there was no build up or reason being shown that they were fighting. No one paid to see that match because no one had a reason to pay to see that match. People paid money to see Valiant vs Jones and his Army because they were invested in seeing it, because it was made to be important to the audience.

Dude. People were invested in Valiant vs Jones and his Army. People paid money to see it. Orndorff/ Muraco was a match on Mania 2 that had no build up whatsoever on TV and didn't sell one ticket to that clusterfuck of a show. I remember when they announced the card for Mania 2. The only thing we thought about Muraco/ Orndorff was "Wow, that should be cool." And then it went and sucked. It didn't draw a dime. The only guys that drew on that show were Hogan and William Perry.

And while I don't wear a Nascar hat and only briefly worked for a subcontractor once, Valiant vs Jones is my favorite feud/ program of all time. It was directly what made me start watching Crockett. It was important, people cared deeply about it, and it was great long, long, long term booking. No way in hell I believe you don't own a Rusty Wallace hat. Yeah, because there's that huge Deadhead/ NASCAR cross over.

Anyone who knows me, knows that pretty much nothing in wrestling "upsets" me. But there have been some random things over the last 30 years that pop into my head now and again that I remember thinking, "Man, fuck this shit." and I was actual pissed off. That bit in WCW where Flair and Arn were paying off veteran scrub guys to throw matches to David Flair had one with Bobby Eaton is one of them.

And while I don't wear a Nascar hat and only briefly worked for a subcontractor once, Valiant vs Jones is my favorite feud/ program of all time. It was directly what made me start watching Crockett. It was important, people cared deeply about it, and it was great long, long, long term booking.