ragemaster

I think the biggest issue is all the eight and ten year old's watching there's hero stun a woman, then growing up with it buried in there subconscious. Maybe a more interesting thread would be is how do we as "smart" wrestling fan's morally continue to watch. With all the death's, injuries and sleaze which goes on in such a business. Why do we go on threads such as this one and cast judgment on wrestling and it's un-tasteful angles, when we are just as bad and morally accountable for continuing to watch.

How do you know Vader can't see him, lay on your back and look up to the left and right. Shawn's on a four and a half foot platform which elevates his height, he would have to be blind not to see him. Also if you watch Vader, he's looking at Shawn and starts to move his arms into his body when Shawn jump's of the top, so there's no way he didn't see him. Vader fucked up and if you see it different and don't take Vader word he fucked up (wish i had a link for his shoot) i won't convince you.

Yeah, I know, but it still looks fishy. See for yourself. The whole spot starts around 4 minutes in. Vader takes the bump at 4:10, and around 4:15 you can see him shifting his body around a little bit on the mat. The way he's positioned, he's clearly set up for the elbow drop from the bottom-right turnbuckle. But Shawn, inexplicably, goes and climbs the top-right turnbuckle. That's a pure fuckup on Shawn's part, because Vader isn't positioned anywhere near where he would need to be in order to make the move work when Shawn's jumping from that corner. Shawn is much too polished a ring general to make a rookie mistake like that, and that's why I think it just might've been deliberate. Vader doesn't know what's going on, and Shawn doesn't even really give him enough time to dodge before landing on his feet and stomping him in the face. (Also, why land on his feet at all? Just squash him with the fuckin' elbow, if you're intent on stiffing him here. Landing on his feet just broadcasts "Hey everybody, we fucked up!" to anyone remotely smart.) It's all the more apparent because they repeat the spot later (at about 3:45), with Vader landing in the exact same position as before, only this time Shawn climbs the correct corner and hits the move successfully. You right that vader positioned himself to take the elbow drop from the bottom right turnbuckle. But watch Shawn after the clothesline, he has his back to Vader makes the sign for the elbow drop and climbs up without looking were Vader is. I don't know what you mean "to make the move work", as i said in my other post this elbow drop was never going to hit so it not important if ether guy is out of position. As for giving him time to dodge, most good wrestlers will wait for there opponent to jump off the ropes before they move. I don't know how much more time Shawn is suppose to give, giving that he has to obey the law's of gravity like every one else. Also when he jumped off the rope with the idea that he was going to land on his feet. He had about one second in mid air to realise Vader wasn't going to move. So going from an elbow drop position to landing on your feet and back to drop an elbow, just wasn't going to happen. Also don't forget the match was laid out before hand with both guys and an agent going over it with them. So Vader should of known what was going to happen for the first elbow, but he forgot the spot and he has gone on record to say it's his fault.

Maybe, but it still looked awfully weird. Vader was down on the mat and clearly not in the right position for the move, but Shawn climbs up anyway. Like I said, what was Vader supposed to do there? Wake up, roll over, and then fall back unconscious again? Especially when the fix is so obvious, all Shawn had to do was pick him up and then knock him back down in the right place. Sorry maybe i wasn't clear enough with my description, all Vader had to do was roll away when Shawn jumped of the top rope. If Shawn was planning on hitting the elbow i imagine he would have, as he's hit it on other wrestlers with out issue when they have been out of position. But he wasn't planning on hitting it, so Vader could of been any were in the ring and it wouldn't have mattered as long as he moved when shawn jumped. Shawn jumped with the idea of being in the elbow drop position in the air and then changing his position to land on this feet which he did. Because Vader hadn't moved he ended up looking like a dick on a major ppv which caused his temper tantrum.

Which I never understood, because that looked like it was all Shawn's fault. Vader was down selling, and clearly nowhere near the position you'd need him in for an elbow drop. But Shawn climbed up onto the top rope anyway. What the fuck was he expecting Vader to do? Sit up, roll over, and then lay back down in a completely different part of the ring and sell like he was out again? That made no sense, and I wonder if Shawn did it on purpose to prove that Vader doesn't know how to work or some bullshit like that. The the elbowdrop was totally Vader's fault as the idea was suppose to be, Shawn doing the elbow drop with Vader moving. Then Shawn lands on his feet and hits whatever the next spot was, i believe Vader has confirmed this in one of his shoot interviews.

Does anyone know if there's a handheld of the night before, as Jannetty claims in a shoot interview that it's his best match.

Ok people lets look at the three main points of view that you keep reaching for, that Shawn Michaels hasn't changed or is still a asshole Point 1. Michaels behaviour with his summerslam match with Hogan and the interview afterwards. Let look at the facts Hogan came in with creative control to do the program with Shawn, Shawn agreed to work with Hogan. As it came to Summerslam hogan said he would work two more matches with Michaels, a cage match and then one more. But said he wouldn't put over Michaels in any of them, but he would do the finish in the cage the same as the Paul orndorff cage match (with hogan wining). This put Michaels back up, as it would any top star including -------- please put you own favourite wrestler in here as i put money on it they would all be equally pissed off by it. But because it Michaels, a born again christian, he's not aloud to get upset but must take it on the chin and say yes please that sound's like a great idea, do you want me to bend over as well. Now lets look at the summerslam match itself did Shawn sabotage Hogan and make him look bad. Before summerslam Shawn had asked hogan to to a walkthrough of the match for summerslam and hogan declined the invite, so Shawn went out there with a man of limited movement, who couldn't bump and spent 20 odd minutes bumping around and making Hogan look as good as possible and trying to have the best match he could. This talk of Michaels temper tantrum in the summerslam match didn't happen. It just something people on this board are saying to try and prove a point of view. Please watch the match again and give me time marks when this happened as i watched the match and i cant find any evidence of it happing. Yes he over bumped but what else was he going to do, or could do. Now on the monday night with the famous interview, did Shawn act in an unprofessional way. Um i don't think he should of done the interview as it was him just venting some of the anger and frustrating he was feeling, and did nothing for business in any way. But did it hurt business, no because Michaels's wasn't going to work any rematches with Hogan because he had the freedom of saying no. Was he unprofessional for doing the interview, no because he works for Vincent K. McMahon who Had oked the interview. If Vince had said no you can't do the interview, and then he had done it, then yes he would of acted in an unprofessional way. Should Vince oked the interview, i would say no, but if you do have an issue with the interview it with vince and not shawn, as he oked it. Also like i said if any one else did the interview on hogan you would be doing hero worship (or at least ok with it) on the said person and you would not be knocking them for it. Point 2 Using his religion or friendship with hunter for political games The main point seems to be his refusal to go smackdown and to stay on raw. If he had of gone to smackdown it wasn't to be in same position he held on raw, it was to be the number one guy with the title.(Going to be given to him, to get him to move brands) Can you imagine the posts on this board if that had happened. On raw most of the time he held the second or third spot on the card. Most people on this board think it was because of his friendship with hunter, the truth is he was simply to good to be in any other position. He probably should of had more runs with the title than he did, but i think at that time in his life he just didn't care to hold it. I'm not sure what were the power plays he pulled as i don't remember any being reported. I still can't see how anyone can cling to he won't turn heel, as a point to prove how he hasn't changed and is still the same old Shawn from before. I would have preferred for him to do a heel run myself as he was an awesome heel worker. But one of the issues with him and hogan, if you watch the new Shawn Michaels dvd was that Hogan had asked for Shawn to be the old Shawn in his interviews. (before the SummerSlam match) Shawn said are you sure if i do it, i wont hold back. Which Hogan said was fine, and then when he heard the interviews he complained about them. I don't think Shawn ever felt comfortable playing a heel since he came back. Due to the fact that he's aware of he's reputation and was trying to change the view of his peers. Also from interview's when he was doing DX the second time around, he did state his unease with some of the stuff he was asked to do. Yes he could of refused or quit if he felt that strongly about it, but how many people on here have quit there jobs because of something there boss has asked them to do. The one thing i would like to ask if anyone on this board has ever worked with him. As most of the evidence that you other to support you clams is rather thin. The one thing wrestlers do when they leave the company is to do shoot interviews and dish the dirt, has any one had a bad word to say about Shawn (since his come back). The only people who still have an issues appear to be people who have never met the guy or worked with him. Saying a guy is an asshole with out facts to support your clams just makes you look bad and you come across as out of touch with reality. Please put some thought in to why you hate someone and if the best you come up with is, he won't turn heel maybe its time to stop saying it. I'm not saying the guy should be exempted from examination or being criticized, but if you are going to do it put some facts and thought into it first. Also if he's more happy at this stage of his life playing a babyface in a fake sport which has no meaning on anything important in the real world. Why the hell not, if he has the power in his carer to make that choice. Just because Shelton Benjamin or Matt Hardy or whoever can't make that choice why is it Michaels problem. Point 3 Not putting people over Of the top of my head he put over. Hunter Batista Edge John Cena Chris Benoit Rey Misterio Jeff Hardy Mr Kennedy Randy Orton Chris Jericho Undertaker Kurt Angle Hell he even lost twice to the Miz (and yes i know there's a difference between losing and putting someone over) I think this shows he not afraid to put people over, and it not like he's not a draw anymore as this years wrestlemania will probably make more money than any other, just on the Shawn/Undertaker match. The point being is he shouldn't have been losing to just anyone in the wwe. He was one of the biggest stars there and him losing just to get someone over, if its the wrong guy only ends up hurting Shawn, and the guy still doesn't get over. Which is what happened with Mr Kennedy when it was tried with him. Up to the age of 44 on Wrestlemania when he had his last match (for now) he was consistently one of the better/best in and out of the ring performers' in the wwe. I think that's the end of my rant for now, and i look forward to intelligent counterpoints to my post.

Wow from reading this thread maybe some of you have started your own religion, because you seem to have a zealot hate in everything Shawn Michaels does or says. Who cares if he rather play face than heel, what difference does that make to anyone. If Shawn had come in to your house and killed your family than i can understand why you may hate him. But all he did was to be an asshole in a business full of assholes, and since he came back from most accounts he been a different person. He goes to work and works harder than most in the company, puts over people when asked to, and then goes home. Also just because you follow a religion it doesn't mean you cant make some mistakes along the way.

I wonder what would give people that impression.

Its very hard on a message board to convey why someone should be in the hall of fame like Big Daddy, unless as you grew up, they were part of your culture. Its hard to get across how big, big daddy was in the uk. The one match i think that proves a strong argument for him, is Big Daddy vs. Mighty John Quinn from 1979 at the wembley arena. Its is on youtube but i think you need to track down an unedited version with both men's entrances and the aftermath to get the complete effect. I also think its one of the most enjoyable matches i ever seen. Should Big Daddy be in the hall of fame, shouldn't be a question. The question is why isn't he. As he was the biggest wrestling star in the uk if he's not in, than nobody from the uk should be in.

If i worked for a company who has a drug testing policy in place, and my doctor gave me a legal prescription for my knee and arm. I would be the biggest moron in the world for not making sure my bosses had a copy of said prescription before i was tested. In fact i would think it would be part of the policy that you had to disclose any and all drug use prescriptions.

Hi I'm working nights at the moment so i will rejoin this discussion sunday/monday if its still on going. I will relook at Eddie to see if I'm not giving him the credit he is due. As for bret i think its an easy argument to win if you look at the facts and not hype or if you think he's The Best There Is The Best There Was The Best There Ever Will Be. So i will put my case forward then and maybe some more of you can list your top ten lists to see what your mind set is when it comes to wrestling compared to mine. Mr Rage

Hi its very simple i feel Shawn has a better body of work than ether Bret or Eddie. Don't forget as great as Eddie was, after his car crash his work suffered a lot. He did do some good work. some great work on the right night but he wasn't as consistent and maybe that's affected my view of him. Now as for Bret i think he did do some awesome work but in my opinion his best work doesn't hold up with shawn's best work plus shawn has a much larger body of great work under his belt. Ok not the most in-depth answer but i just finished a night shift and need my sleep. Also why do people here seem to hate Shawns work, out of my top ten he was the only one people focused on as wrong. Just as a note if i was voting for my favourites Owen Hart and Randy Savage would be in there. I did have trouble when i got to number six finding the last four wrestlers to put on my list and maybe it should be a top 5 and then the next number on the list is number 20 or something to show how great they are compared to the rest on the list. Mr Rage

But number 6 in the greatest wrestler of all time, i must have been watching a different Eddie than you. Yes he was awesome. Top 50 To top 30 easy, top 20 maybe, top 10 no way. Mr rage Just for shits and giggles, who is in your Top 10? Hi that could open me up to be ripped apart, i give you 10 but not in any order Kenta Kobashi Stan Hansen Shawn Michaels Ric Flair Chris Benoit Jumbo Tsuruta Toshiaki Kawada Rey Mysterio Jr Jushin Liger terry funk/Billy Robinson (maybe need to see more Robinson) not sure who to go with and if i seen more of there work Manami Toyota Devil Masami Harley Race (not much out there of his prime) Dave Finlay Akira Hokuto Jaguar Yokota I need to see more of world of sport. When wrestlers like Bret Hart,Ted Dibiase,Destroyer (who i love from what i seen) and even wrestles in my top 10 like Benoit and Liger get called the best technical wresters, you need to watch these guys to see what that statement really means as there style blows them away. Jim Breaks Johnny Saint Steve Grey

But number 6 in the greatest wrestler of all time, i must have been watching a different Eddie than you. Yes he was awesome. Top 50 To top 30 easy, top 20 maybe, top 10 no way. Mr rage

I don't know exactly how many matches of his are floating around, but the general consensus seems to be that he's amazing in almost all of them. It's an incomplete picture of his career, but there's enough there to strongly suggest that he was great. Hi thanks for the reply but that's not a good reason for him to be so high. He not the worst on the list with Eddie Guerrero at 6 and bret hart at 9, but i guess guerrero's death had a lot to do with it. The love for bret hart is almost as bad as the hate for shawn michaels. It would be interesting to do one now and see if Chris Benoit killing his family puts him behind shawn or if being a arsehole is the greater crime. Not that this list should be voted on that, but a lot of it appears to be when you look at the listing. What i mean by that is it people's perceptions on the wrestlers and not fact on how they voted Mr rage

Hi just a quick question how did the The Destroyer end up so hi on the list. I think there's only about 7 or 10 matches floating about out there. Thanks Mr rage