soup23

Thanks for the info Steve, I saw that bit with buster on the 1990 yearbook and it was interesting. Sorry I forgot to mention you in the meeting up with us on Saturday. I was mainly recollecting on the tailgate Sunday.

This is a long show so here are the time stamps: Wrestlemania 29 recap and weekend breakdown (00:00:00 - 00:46:55) Southside Wrestling and Parv meeting Dibiase (00:46:55 - 00:59:55) Gordon Solie WNN Compilation (00:59:55 - 01:15:58) Meltzer News Tidbits (01:15:58 - 01:25:02) Clash of the Champions 9 (01:25:02 - 02:29:18) Listener Comments and Farewell (02:29:18 - 02:43:13)

Is there a consensus on the best Vader match? I would assume one of the matches with Sting but I'm not sure which one is most preferred.

Ecw definitely had crowds bigger than 2,000 on more than a handful of occasions. I agree with your overall points Loss just wanted to add that for clarification.

Best top to bottom show as far as quality goes as I only see Leon White vs. Zuhkov as a below 100 type match. One thing I like about the Johnny P shows is that a lot of discussion devolves into tastes and structure in wrestling which I find interesting since its differences among very "high" level wrestling fans. I am saddened we didn't get to his talk on the Portland footage though since I love hearing stuff about that. Kudos to Johnny's Prince rendition at the end to. Col. Debeers vs. Jerry Blackwell (Ladder Match) (11/27/86) - Good match and really neat to see Blackwell scale up the ladder. Some of the ladder spots were brutal. Match ending kind of abruptly was a bummer and doesn't propel this above mid range for me. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Larry Zbyszko (11/27/86) - Larry vs. Nick is 2 for 2 in my book and a feud I really am starting to love. This fleshed out some of the themes of the sprint match but still cut a good pace and packed a lot into the time allotted. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (12/25/86) - Really great match that the biggest detraction against is that it came after the one hour draw in our viewing. Mat work was really good but not some of the best I have seen. I did like the tempers flaring more quickly this time. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (12/25/86) - Here we go. I try to avoid opinions on these matches but this one was unavoidable so I knew where everyone stood going in. After watching the match, I feel more closely aligned with Dylan. I see Matt D's criticisms as mostly valid except for the cage one. I thought the cage was used fine as a battering ram weapon and not allowing Sherri to interfere. The shine sequence does take away a good bit of the excitement for the second half for me. I sort of compared it to the Final Conflict cage match. That match had an extended shine sequence that took me out of that match as well. I still think this match is great and will be in my top 50, but I didn't see it as a sure fire top 10 pick. I also think structure shouldnt be scoffed at. I think me and Parv have made it pretty clear in our podcast that we are both not too big of fans of the babyfaces firing off on the heels and making them look foolish for the majority of a "competitive" match. That happened here. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (1/17/87) - Now we are talking. Slower pace but retained intensity of the Christmas match. Many more shifts in momentum and the heels on top. It still had the crazy bumps and the Rockers bleeding like mad. I thought Shawn's strikes looked much better in this match as well. I was still annoyed by Shawn picking up his opponent from the three count. Finish was fun with the double team ramming of Somers. This is #5 for me currently. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (1/27/87) - I may be the high man on this as I have it in my top ten and think its the best straight tag on the set so far. Wonderful job that really built to the climax of the faces getting their just due. Finish was a wonderful barrage of action to after the methodical dismantling that Rose and Somers did throughout the match. One of the best tag feuds of the 80's with 3 top 10 matches for me so far and nothing between these two teams will be below 75 in my ballot. Leon White vs. Boris Zuhkov (2/21/87) - Match was going good until Vader started slowing the pace down and it sputtered to the bad finish. I still enjoy seeing babyface Vader revving up the crowd but this will probably be bottom 20 and is kind of the baseline for matches I would classify as "good" on the set.

Love having Childs on this shows. He always does such a good job at explaining his position on certain facets and bringing up talking points. You filled in the hour wonderfully even though I couldn't stop staring at the people in crowd you were discussing. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Greg Gagne & Jimmy Snuka (9/20/86) - Good tag match with Snuka looking fine which is rare for me to think so. Probably will end up being around #100 when its all said and done. Buddy Rose vs. Marty Jannetty (10/18/86) - I really liked this match as we got some nasty offense from Buddy and it really built to an exciting finish. this for sure will be in my upper half. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (11/21/86) - #1 match for me and I can't see anything overtaking it. Let me get two nitpicks out the way first that keep this match out of the discussion for greatest wrestling match I have ever seen. 1. The botched hip toss 2. Referee kicking bocks arms reaching for the ropes in the submission that Sorrow commented on and 3. The crowd leaving during the match which pisses me off to no end. Still I don't know if I have seen 25 better matches in my life. I love body control, interesting mat work and this is one of the best examples of that I have ever seen. The intensity also builds and it does reach a crescendo right at the finish with both competitors a bloody mess. Amazing stuff here. Buddy Rose, Doug Somers & Sherri Martel vs. Midnight Rockers & Despina Montegues (11/27/86) - Match was fun as fuck and perfect contrast to hour long draw. Sherri looked great in the ring and the 3 way bumps were well executed. Probably 50-70 range overall.

Sort of a mixed bad here as my current #1 and sure fire bottom three match happened in succession. I also must say that of all the major venues of the 80's the Showboat is my least favorite in general and a part of my heart breaks every time I see those empty front row chairs. Col. DeBeers, Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Nick Bockwinkel, Steve Pardee & Brad Rheingans (5/31/86) - Another good 6 man with fun interaction with Bock vs. Rose. I again was not that impressed with Debeers and Rheingans. I am real excited about Pardee as he has been good on both of his appearances and has breakout potential on the Portland set. Mid range match. Stan Hansen vs. Curt Hennig (5/31/86) - Top 25 contender. I loved the February match but can see how it felt like a squash. This served to show how much growth Curt had really made in such a short time. It pains me that Hansens run is coming to a close. Stan Hansen vs. Crusher Blackwell (6/28/86) - Two beefy motherfuckers laying into each other. I still prefer the Slaughter/Hansen and Vader/Hansen as my favorite AWA Hansen stuff but this match combined with the Curt match and Bock match is a pretty damn good 5 matches to hang your hat on. Hansen certainly added to his resume with this set in my eyes and is a serious #1 GOAT contender for me. Alexis Smirnoff, Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers & Curt Hennig (6/28/86) - I really liked the 6 man and the Rockers vs. Somers/Rose feud keeps building. Top 50 potential. Col. DeBeers, Larry Zbyszko & Doug Somers vs. Greg Gagne, Curt Hennig, & Jimmy Snuka (7/26/86) - Wasn't not too ecstatic with this and agree with Wills criticisms of Gagne in the match. Bottom 50 lock. Sherri Martel vs. Debbie the Killer Tomato (7/26/86) - Competing with Snuka/Steamboat as worst 80's match I have seen on the two sets I have participated in. I understand you wanted to showcase a Sherri singles buy oy. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (8/30/86) - Transcendent match that I thought for sure would be my #1 (it has since been eclipsed). I have really found a new love for tag wrestling the past year between this set, the yearbooks, and the podcast and this storyline match felt like the culmination of all that. Best hot tag I have seen. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Boris Zuhkov (8/30/86) - Awful Placement but a pretty fun match with Bock working more straight babyface than we have seen. Mid Range

Short answer to the categories for me is that all of them are important if they can be intertwined. I would say most believable should be the baseline for me to buy it and then everything funnels up from that. I am very little fans of Nova and the ilk that have a ton of creative moves but I dont find them believable or focused and essentially they only fit his character is if his character is "guy who makes up moves." On the other hand, someone discussed last night was Bobby eaton who had varied offense but could use it in a very focused manner based on the theme of the match.

Childs beat to the punch but in the offensive discussion I wanted to bring up Eaton as he has a great varied offense. Vader is certainly in the conversation though.

Vader is someone that I keep coming back to as someone that if I made a GOAT list would have a shot at maybe cracking my top 10. I always knew about how great he was in WCW and that stuff holds up wonderfully but in the past year I have seen him have Duggans best match post 1986, the best shoot style match I have ever seen, and a magnificent performance in my #2 AWA match of the 80's currently. I think Vader has more depth that what may be on the surface.

I love Phil on the shows because of his generally sarcastic attitude and he brought his A game for this show. Him talking about how hot Sherri was (I agree with him) immediately was a highlight. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (4/20/86) - Great opening match up between these teams that got me real excited for the overall feud. This is probably a 60-80 type match. Rick Martel vs. Harley Race (4/20/86) - On one hand, this match has a lot of stuff Im usually not a huge fan of as I love nasty brawls or body control work. On the other hand, this had a ton of variety of moves and I loved the little touches Race threw in his strikes that you guys picked up on. I see someone like Parv having this super high given the amount of moves in this match. It will probably still have a shot in the top 30 for me. Stan Hansen vs. Nick Bockwinkel (4/20/86) - Sitting at # 8 currently and probably top 20 lock. Awesome match in front of a big crowd. I wish Hansen would have dropped the belt here but Im glad we got a big time match between these two. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Jesse Hernandez & Leon White (5/1/86)- This wont be a bottom 10 match because the work was solid but it did feel like one of the more expendable matches so far. It was nice to see 3 out of the 4 performances but it felt like we see as good a tv match every week these days and Hernandez did nothing. Mike Rotundo & Curt Hennig vs. Mr. Go & Larry Zbyszko (5/1/86) - Go was really cool in this match and brought a neat dynamic. MIddle match but a lot of fun. Mike Rotundo vs. Doug Somers (5/1/86) - Best Rotunda singles match ever? It is in my opinion as he did great here selling the eye work and looking pissed off seeking revenge. Top 50 candidate. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Scott Hall & Curt Hennig (5/17/86) - Decent match with the big title change. Finish was pretty shitty though and didn't make a ton of sense.

This weekend I locked myself in the spare bedroom and it was a steady diet of: Study 2 hours > watch 30 mins of AWA, rinse and repeat

This was a fun show. I think if you compose these shows as a "card" like Johnny has talked about, this is one of the strongest. My favorite reference during this show was the Bill Murray Kingpin joke. Col. DeBeers vs. Buck Zumhofe (2/23/86) - I really liked this opener, inoffensive and DeBeers looked like a big time heel with a great performance. Probably middle of the road overall. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Larry Zbyszko (2/23/86) - Screw it, this is in my top 20 right now. One of the best sub 5 minute matches of all time that should be talked about alongside 123 Kid vs. Owen. The early stalling is awesome to. Stan Hansen vs. Sgt. Slaughter (2/23/86) - Good burly slugfest mixed in with some actual build. Even though this was ranked high by the panel and the comments on DVDVR, I think I will have this higher than most as it is currently sitting as my #5 Stan Hansen vs. Sgt. Slaughter (Bunkhouse Match) (3/9/86) - Shorter, compact version of their match but still damn good and a great ending. I have no problem calling the second match between these two that we see on the set great and the other two matches very good so overall, this series delivered for me. Stan Hansen vs. Leon White (3/13/86) - Fucking incredible match and my #2 currently. Nasty ass arm work that kept building and was mixed in with stiff shots. The finish was also brutal. I got a Regal vs. Ambrose vibe from this match. Certainly Vaders first great match and the biggest surprise for me on the set in just how good it was. I may need to watch again but its a contender for my favorite Hansen US match ever. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Col. DeBeers (4/17/86) - Great Bockwinkle performance again. I thought DeBeers here was a little awkward as pointed out by the panel but as far as TV matches go, I liked this a lot more than something like the Bock vs. Rhengians stuff from earlier. Buddy Rose, Doug Somers, & Larry Zbyszko vs. Steve Pardee, Mike Rotundo, Jimmy Snuka (4/17/86) - Really fun 6 man that gave us a glimpse of whats to come with Rose/Somers. Zbysko looked really weird here with his tan, hair, and tights. Pardee looked really good as FIP and this is one the better Snuka performances I have seen in a while as the annoying stuff was kept to a minimum. Mike Rotundo & Barry Windham vs. The Fabulous Ones (4/20/86) - Solid stuff but will be probably bottom 50 on my ballot due to me not being too excited by a lot of what was going on. I was mildly disappointed in this and it seemed like Kiern in particular was sort of on auto pilot.

It's talked about during the show but it did sound like to me the crowd was less audible during that match than the previous ones from Superclash. Granted, it was a ton more mat oriented than Blackwell and Kimala and they did amp up more when Flair juiced.

Taking little 15-20 minute breaks from studying to watch some AWA and synch up is great therapy for me. I blew through this show in the past couple of days. Here is my ranking of the disc: 1. Ric Flair vs. Magnum TA (9/28/85) - I guess the crowd was burnt out from all the mayhem that ensued before this but I loved the way this match was worked and this felt like the definitive match between these two. Probably a top 30 candidate. 2. Stan Hansen vs. Sgt. Slaughter (2/2/86) - Pretty gritty brawling and it looked like the first of a trio of matches to come. Hansen sold well for the Sarge and Sarge looked credible in the match. 3. Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Rick Martel (9/29/85) - I really enjoyed this and have liked Martel on the set but one thing that is kind of distracting from me is that his matches with Bockwinkle and Jumbo kind of run together in my eyes. I was looking over my rankings and could only vaguely distinguish certain matches in the series only a month from when I last watched them. 4. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Ric Flair (1/17/86) - Shame this wasn't in full but I'm glad we got at least a good chunk of it. I must be honest and didn't totally dig some Bock stuff in this match as his selling at times bordered on cartoonish for me in the figure four. I thought Flair looked great. 5. Rick Martel vs. Boris Zuhkov (Cage Match) (11/14/85) - Fun ass match. Absolutely horrible finish that rightly got skewered. I like how Kris kept warning about the ref and at the beginning Will and Johnny were justifying but by the end , everyone was on the same page that he sucked. 6. Stan Hansen vs. Curt Hennig (2/1/86) - Agree that this was essentially a squash but fuck if Hansen mauling people and hennig selling was at least very fun to watch. Will's analogies to current WWE were spot. 7. Jimmy Garvin & Steve Regal vs. Scott Hall & Curt Hennig (11/14/85) - Solid tag and I liked the mis communication between Regal and Garvin. I honestly thought while Regal was not good in this match he wasn't complete dogshit. I also do think Garvin is being sold short for the 1980's as I have liked a lot of the stuff he has been in. 8. Steve Regal vs. Buck Zumhofe (11/28/85) - My last place match so far. Dreadfully boring, I can understand why it went on for importance but damn if this was these guys' best, I would hate to see the worst.

I was not much of a fan. Good for a "hey that is different" watch like the Arkansas Hog Pen match but much better conception wise than execution for me. I think the main problem I had with it is that in Wargames, everything feels so confined and claustrophobic that it amplifies the intensity and pain. Here, everything felt diluted and stretched out and the camera had a hard time really capturing the action with the long camera shot showing the whole structure. There also was not a whole lot of logic going on within the confines of the match. I was pretty disappointed given some of the talent in the match and the coolness of the structure.

I read his stuff at the site launch and was not a big fan. He seemed so determined to make his own theories work, "the reality era" that when they didn't take off, he just seemed disillusioned and uninformed on the actual landscape of the wrestling business.

The way the matches worked, I think any match following Taker vs. Punk would have had a tough time getting a great reaction. Taker's streak has created such a template in the past 5 years for having really excitable matches live with huge moves being displayed and spots designed for the streak to be in jeopardy. The streak is so by far the most prestigious thing that WWE has for the fans to invest in that retirements, championships, and dream matches just don't measure up. That being said, Brock vs. HHH certainly didn't help the cause. Brock mugging for the crowd was humorous but created a lot of down time and we never had any crisp heated strike exchanges from this no holds barred match than what we got in the match right before in Taker/Punk. I also do think the impact of these heated brawls is lost a lot in a big arena like this where it is a. tough to see what is going on without looking at a screen and b. you have such a huge arena that the impact sounds are muffled. I could barely hear the impact spots on the table outside and this was when the crowd was dead as hell.

Thanks Duke for listening.

I think the Garvin cage match is really good bordering on great. Probably 3.75 stars from me. The beginning meanders but when Garvin starts selling the leg and Flair goes nuts, it is pretty awesome.

Friday: ROH Sat: Shimmer HOF Sun: Mania I will be hanging out with the Place 2 Be podcast crew tailgating on Sunday afternoon so stop on by.

All Three of those topics sound great and I can't wait to listen in.

This show was a blast and it is amazing how vivid the memories of Wrestlemania are throughout the years.

Late getting around to this but listened to the first episode and enjoyed it a lot. The production was top notch and the introductory you did Kelly was well done to wrestling novices.

Any update on Part 2 Bix?