MJH

His family bred dogs. Young Jim lets a dog of a different breed in, resulting in interbred dogs, and, as punishment, "to teach him a life lesson", his dad makes him kill the puppies. It'd be a great scene in a southern gothic novel; less so as a public speaking memoir.

See, I find my wrestling-watching actually goes up when I'm busy (be it O/T at work, during end of term uni work, whatever); if I've got nothing to do, I'd probably spend the time either reading or writing. I watch Raw every Monday (Tuesday morning), but on an hour-or-so tape-delay at the start so I can skip the breaks and anything particularly dull. Depending on what's on the show that can range from an hour's worth of proper viewing up to maybe 100 minutes but scarcely more (the breaks alone probably constitute an hour of the three). After that it's motivation-driven; if I get a new DVD set (like the '80s Lucha one next week), or if I fancy plowing through some old AJ/AJW or whatever I can find on YouTube, etc. I was actually considering going through the full Ginnetty Zenjo '78-'83 set (I've only watched selected stuff off it as yet) just to give myself the motivation, and if Jerome can do the final eighteen-months of WCW I can sure as hell do that. On average though? 10 just for a round figure? Either way, Dylan, I salute you.

I recall the 'Morishima-Luv' included a lot of raving about his athleticism for his size. It's not the kind of thing that'd get over here, but with a lot of the 'pro-Angle' types I can see that earning him points. I do remember watching a match of his vs. KENTA (which may not have been raved about, per se, but I can't see it having been shit on either) where they worked it as if there was no real size difference between the two. It was a strong "go go go" sorta match in the vein of KENTA/Marufuji etc, but it struck me (and I'd imagine would strike most on here) as pretty fucking silly. Whilst Vader was a little too bump-happy for me, at least at times, obviously had the moonsault etc, it wasn't as though he was running around with Scorpio looking when to get the next missile dropkick in.

I voted Dustin, but I do think some people are giving Taker a short thrift. Whilst it's true that Taker has had many advantages - and not just the WrestleMania thing (I agree on the Shawn/Hunter matches being overrated by many, but I thought the Batista match was ideal and need to re-watch the Edge match which I really liked at the time) but Taker's size, too, made something like his matches with Bret much more obvious and easy than Bret/Dustin would've been - he's also a much better "big man" worker than anyone else in the "near 7'" bracket that I can think of right now. My position is the same as Jastrau's really, in that, if I were to have a Top 20 matches involving either guy, Taker would probably feature more than Dustin, but, as the size of the comp increased, Dustin's % would rise exponentially and by the time we got to 100/more he'd have a clear advantage.

Seconded. That and RnR were just working against better teams much more regularly.

I commend him for finding a nice niche with Chikara, but, as a worker, I just can't get past his face, his facials are far too goofy.

A match (and I'm not sure why) between KENTA and Marufuji for the GHC from July of this year was just recommended to me on YouTube. It goes 36 minutes. You know what you're getting.

I have no more problem with a match being fast-paced than slow-paced; there's a way to do it well and some can. I'd also defend certain go-go/spotFU matches if they're the best of their kind. I've obviously stated before that I'll stand by some Toyota/Kyoko(/etc) matches as elite sprints/spot-fests/whatever, and, similarly, I've stood by TLC I as a perfect choreographed stunt-fest where they'd learnt from their previous matches and never bettered. Where Toyota/Kyoko differs from, I don't know, Angle or Davey, is that, with the girls, I get the impression "hey, we've enough offence and cardio to run through 25-minutes of spots and no one else can", whereas, with the guys, it feels to me like they're trying to have "a great match" and that story/selling (down the stretch in particular) isn't as important to that epic feeling as a slew of 2.9s.

Whilst I agree that being the ace of New Japan demands better offence than being the ace of WWE, my problems with Tanahashi matches have generally been in their lay-out more than anything else; and, to be fair, I could say (and have said) the same for Cena's more near-fall-heavy matches too. Though, yes, @ShinyaHashimotosGhost: @TanahashiROCKSTAR Lay your shit in, bro, it's TV.

Except it doesn't. A "12-year friend" is a friend of twelve years (the friendship's duration); a "12-year-old friend" means the friend in question is 12-years-old. Coupled with her talking of growing up in arenas, etc... putting it down to a slip-of-the-tongue is loose. Twelve years isn't even that long a friendship, really (in terms of what it's suggesting) for people who're late 30s/early 40s anyway; a friendship from school would have lasted twice that long at least, for instance. But... yeah... that whole deal was just painful. The idea isn't that bad, as such - "even the biggest guy on the roster must kowtow to the regime" - but why not at least have Bryan get the upper-hand in the match, cue the Shield for a beat-down, and then have Hunter/Steph insist on an unnecessary shot from Show to wrap up the beating? Also, why is no one talking about the commentator's (or Cole and Lawler) speaking out against them? If you're not gonna have them laid out they're the last people you'd want talking about it because they're speaking constantly to the audience.

I hate the word "genius". That said: his failures don't prove anything except that he overreached a few times. Or that some (many) of his ideas sucked. You could say that about any (or many) bona-fide unquestioned "geniuses" in history. Especially "creative genius", which is what we're talking about here. In many cases that's actually part of the allure. To use Dylan, as Jerry did, heck, forget the painting, a fair amount of his albums are pretty fucking bad. That doesn't change anything. I mean, of course, it's just WWE rhetoric, but if we have to apply to term to someone in wrestling, I don't see why not Vince.

I have a soft spot for Bull because of how she kept AJW going during during the post-Crush Gals, pre-Hokuto (in her prime) era. Plus she had a damn good long run that included those eras too and produced some memorable matches and angles. I don't know if her North American stuff means that much, but her work with Blayze opened the doors for more WWF work for Joshi (particulary Aja) before Blayze jumped. I don't know if this is enough for her to be considered the all time greatest, but she had an impressive career. She didn't have to deal with the age cap, did she? Still, though, fine run. This. You really need to see that whole late-'89->'92 run to appreciate her full worth. Whilst you could see the signs in the talent, none of them were near "the finished product" and she just delivered show after show. Even the odd singles match you'd get from her AJW Title run circa 85-6 within a year or two of her debuting and when she was still about 17 or so, just nice little matches and better than most of the girls were doing at that comparative stage of their careers. She really was just one of the best talents the company ever had.

Trish was only "very good" in relation to what was around her, though she did end up far better than anyone would've predicted in 2000/1 when she came in and deserves credit for putting the work in. As for "good for Joshi"... I don't think Death From Above's (possible) insinuation (which would apply to some boards) applies here; I never read it as "good by women's standards", criticisms of the fast-paced style have existed for years, and I know enough from Childs' and other's posts to know it wasn't meant with any sexist intent. There are, as I mentioned above, plenty of valid criticisms one could make against Toyota; my only qualm would be that, if she's "the female Kurt Angle", she's a much better version. I'm not a particularly big fan of Toyota myself, really - as far as favourites go she's probably not even Top 10 - I just stand by my position that, for those negatives, there's just as many strengths, if not more, and something like the 60:00 with Kyoko is, if nothing else, one of the more remarkable athletic feats in wrestling (or nearly). But I mean, having listened to Will's podcast with Phil and Kris this morning putting it in my head, you get similar comments about Lucha, for instance, and, like Lucha, you get tonnes of stuff that's not in that presumed style too.

This. Jackie was a step up (though The Black Pair looked a really good heel team for the period), then Jaguar was another sizable step-up and was the best worker they had and helped train everyone onward (she was the trainer within a few years of debuting). Chigusa was really fucking great, and has finally received her due since the Samurai Classics series and people going back to view the '80s with new eyes. That said, Hokuto had the highest peak, but it was very short. If someone were to say her as GFOAT I don't think anyone would have a problem with it. Aja? Yes and no. Aja had better matches as the monster ace than Bull did, but Aja was also working with a greater crop of talent (or rather, the same crop, when they were far better). Bull got (really) good far quicker and, nifty little match though it is, I'd've much rather seen Chigusa work Bull than Hokuto in the run up to her retirement. It's one of the true lost matches. What one has to accept with Toyota is that her style *is the house style*, she did it better than anyone, and her body held up incredibly well allowing her to be a strong talent for far longer than she had any right to be, really. She's as good as any wrestler has ever been offensively, as good a FIP as there's ever been, and on just about any Best 50 Joshi Matches Ever list she'd crop up the most. Her flaws are well-documented, but her strengths are undeniable and she has to be up there in "Tier 2" at worst (to copy the other thread). Devil I really like. Facially, she's the female Regal, and that doesn't get mentioned enough. Her other strengths have been mentioned before and she's a Tier 2 talent, but I doubt she'd make anyone's Top 5. Ozaki was, as many have said, almost certainly the best actress, and a great talent. Best ever? Not quite, but not far off. She's another who has held up better and could still cut a decent pace in recent years. I do prefer Kansai during the inter-promotional era though, and she's unquestionably up there too. Kyoko's as likeable a babyface as you're ever going to see. I think it was OJ who said she "captured the joy of performing" better than anyone(?). That. Wonderful, but off the GFOAT pace. Who else has been mentioned? If we're talking "big match" workers, to reference the Cena thread, Kandori was fantastic. Again, not GFOAT, but she'd probably get my #10 spot. Yoshida suffers from peaking far after the others and the scene being in fast decline when she did. She's also stylistically different (by ARSION, though signs were there earlier) which helps. Not GFOAT but a Tier 2/3-at-worst. Jackie, Jaguar, Chigusa, Hokuto, Aja, Bull, Toyota, Devil, Kansai, Ozaki, Kyoko, Kandori, Yoshida... that's 13, and probably your pool. Kudo is a stretch to me, Tier 3 at best, but she warrants a mention. She certainly made the best of what she had, but I think had she came through Zenjo she'd've been lost in the shuffle somewhat. For the sake of having 15 you could toss LCO there as a tag team but individually they're not at that level. That said, I can't think of many other teams male or female who benefited from each other as much as they did. As far as Americans go, I'm gonna be cliche and say Debbie. She wasn't a super worker, and probably never would have been, but she couldn't have timed the injury worse. If someone was to give her the 20/25 spot to round out a "Top x" list, yeah...

There are, it should go without saying, a number of fair criticisms one can make of Cena's character. Give him a strong, serious promo to deliver and he'll almost invariably hit it out of the park: give him "comedy" and it's wretched (perhaps through little fault of his own, but, at the same time, he has veto-rights on it). Does the attire still bug people? It did for a while. I can't speak for his in-ring ability when he broke in as I wasn't watching at the time and (thankfully) missed his whole "white rapper" phase. I've seen a few matches from that time in retrospect, vs. Taker and a few others, and they were good but in such a way as I'd give more credit to the opponent. Some of his execution is still bad, there's no getting around that. It's ironic that his sit-out powerbomb generally looks fucking great (whereas Batista's very much did not), the AA is what it is, the super rocker-dropper can be very hit-and-miss (though it looked *awesome* on Bryan, easily the best I've seen him hit it). He's just... awkward... down to the way he bumps (hips, elbows; and not in a controlled side-bump of a Flair or Savage) and runs the ropes (his foot comes way up in the air as if he's learning how to run them and to remind himself what foot to step out with). The STF is dire and his selling/body language of the hold rarely extends past his face (though that criticism can be applied to Bryan, too, at least on Sunday, I thought he did a bad job of wrenching the guillotine). The problem for Cena is that most of these "flaws" are obvious. And when you couple them with a character who can be very grating (The Rock was every bit as loose and sloppy, if less awkward), it doesn't surprise me at all that a large number of people don't like him as the top guy. But, as others have mentioned, the "Cena Sucks!" chants are singalongs. I couldn't help but notice vs. Bryan how, when Bryan would make his comeback, g-up, run his offence quick, there'd be plenty of "Daniel Bryan!" and "Yes!" chants, but in the middle, when the arm came into play and Bryan pushed his aggression and Cena went as close as he did to sympathetic selling on the injury, the crowd quitened significantly. It was their only real mis-step and they moved away from it quickly. I mean the story was Bryan as underdog, Cena as pseudo-heel, and a dominant Bryan doesn't play into that, but, if the crowd "hated" Cena, they know he's injured, and Bryan's going after it predatorally because it's his opening, they should, logically, have been for that not apathetic to it. But you can't chant "Cena Sucks!" or "Let's Go Bryan" (at least, not really) when Bryan's in comfortable control, except on deliberate singalong spots (his kicks are the old corner ten-count). Anyway, I'm digressing. Whilst I think a large number of the audience might well be tired with Cena (inevitable, he's been top dog for 8 and a half years - they'd turned on Hogan at that point), I think the "hate" thing is overestimated and extends little beyond those "pseudo smarts" people have mentioned already. As a talent, I think he's somewhere in the middle, though much closer to Dylan's "best big match worker" than "sucks". I do wish we get a heel run if for no other reason than I think the matches will be great.

S4C re-ran a lot of them fairly recently (as in the shows would've been recorded on DVD not VHS), or have those generally been searched and uploaded already?

Cena is vastly under-rated by a lot of people (though less so here), but I don't see how anyone can say he was better than Steve Austin in almost any facet as a WWE Main Eventer. As for Bret, he was never a "big match wrestler", really. I mean, he has them, but a lot of his best stuff like Mania vs. Owen, KOTR vs. Hennig, etc, aren't "big" matches at all. Cena's a better WWE "top star/ace" in a lot of ways - though not in all - but whereas with Bret's best stuff I can follow his train of thought, I could commentate the story through, I don't get that from many of Cena's matches. I've enjoyed Cena's stuff with Punk, for instance, but I couldn't talk you through their intentions (as I read them, anyway); they don't quite "make sense" in the same way. I suppose it depends on the person how much they value that cerebral-ness in a "big match" (Cena's matches frequently, if not almost always, feel like a big deal), but, for me at least, it's a failing of a lot of those matches.

Well the worst is Shawn at Beware of Dog... Bret at SummerSlam '92? Does Hokuto working through the broken neck count? Or the Misawa shoulder injury deal in '92? I dunno, they're just off my head but there are plenty I'm forgetting right now. (I didn't mention in the other thread but Paul playing off Punk's rant on Raw is the kind of thing most guys wouldn't pick up on).

It's way too early to be talking "Best WWE Show Ever"... I mean, if we say Cena/Lesnar > Punk/Lesnar, as many have in this thread, was Bryan/Sheamus 2/3 really that far behind Bryan/Cena? and throw in Punk/Jericho against ADR/Christian... as for "top two matches" I'd take either from WMX over both Punk/Lesnar and Bryan/Cena (of course the rest of the show sucked but still).

Well the most glaring issue with Punk/Lesnar was that Punk didn't learn. The angles leading into the match showed that Punk can go relatively toe-to-toe and stand a chance if he ignores his want to get Heyman, and the match itself was fairly back-and-forth. But I lost count of the number of transitions based around Punk going after Heyman and allowing Lesnar to take over again, (and again, and again)... and Punk never learnt. You had two options to play that out: Punk eventually learns to ignore Heyman long enough to maintain the advantage and win, or Heyman gets his and it's almost worthy of Punk getting distracted. Heyman "getting his" was a punch and a few seconds in the Anaconda Vice when there was a chair lying there, steps outside, a GTS, something Punk could've done that was far bigger. I mean, sure, you're limited by what bump Heyman can take but one big shot on the second biggest show of the year for a guy he really likes etc? I'm actually kind of amazed they didn't incorporate a ladder and allow Punk to do something to Heyman with it playing off the turn. Maybe that's coming... but you can only do it vs. Curtis Axel, and, I mean, Curtis Axel? On a B-show? Lesnar's on a four-match-per-annum deal and has one left (which has to be Mania, and probably not against Punk even though this match has an easy rematch in how it ended). That aside, it was still a strong match, though I'm with Dylan and think the Cena match was far more chaotic and fresh, even with the stupid finish. As for the rest? I've no problems with the finish of the show. Cena/Bryan was strong too and they left plenty in the locker to have a bigger match later if needs be. Whether that's foresight or Cena's injury, but still, it beats blowing their load here as might have been the case. Cena's MITB and (especially) Raw matches vs. Punk were much more all-out, for instance. I don't think the crowd were reacting to the match so much, rather than just chanting (they notably dipped in the middle) but that's the nature of them nowadays really. I do hope they use the flying knee as a new hot KO finish for Bryan (there's a pleasant irony in him feuding with HHH now). But, no, the top two matches delivered, Christian/Del Rio was solid, etc, and it was a fine show.

He's ("Great") British... it's bred from birth.

So, after being reminded in the Misawa/Kawada thread, I decided to re-watch this this morning. I don't think it's as near-great (pre-finish) as I thought, but I still have it as their second best match (distantly from the Carnival Final of course). Taue's opening burst is great - he was at his best when rolling through his big offence. I actually like that the backflip counter to the apron nodowa didn't really amount to anything as, given the punishment Misawa had received at that point (to Taue's essentially none), it needed a few more counters and elbows to make the transition. I also liked Misawa immediately paying back the floor powerbomb with a Tiger Driver (though I love payback spots). I thought Misawa collapsing off the powerbomb->rana counter was mis-placed and should've come a few minutes later, probably after his next pop-up elbow counter, and before the powerbomb hit... if the point is that Misawa can't make his usual comeback (and they do break it up here so I'm assuming it was), it came too early in Taue's second control, firstly that Misawa's damage didn't quite correlate, nor did Taue going for the powerbomb there relative to his own offence. Actually, what hurt the match most (besides the finish) was that you could see the gap in Taue's offence. He had his big near falls, and Misawa obviously fed him Germans, but between them and his low-mid level stuff like the stun gun and what have you, he didn't have the mid-high stuff whereas Kobashi and Kawada obviously would've done. He (Taue) just looked that little bit older, I thought. As for the finish... I don't understand the botch. If the plan was TD '91... he has him up and in position and hit the Tiger Driver proper no problem (which is more difficult as he's popping him out more)... and it all went so quick (as if Taue slipped out of the grip) that it wasn't any weighting issue. But, no, I still think this is a better match than it's been repped over the years (whereas the 9/95 one goes the other way), and there's far more obvious story/structure/lay-out than in the Kawada match a month before.

It was taped. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGH4I1TdpXg

I feel it's worth pointing out that they were fucked from the start: they had nowhere to go. They'd done the "Kawada is hot off winning the Carnival, but Misawa fights him off" in '94, "Kawada is hot off pinning Misawa for the first time, but Misawa fights him off" in '95... this was only ever going to be a "marking time" match. There was nothing else they could do but "do stuff", lay in their strikes more than I ever remember them doing, and tack on a finish. Where this has always fell apart to me is not with the backdrop drivers, but with the triangle choke. Had Kawada finally hit the powerbomb there, it might have been the most ludicrous "near fall" ever, but also a brilliant one and, whilst they'd still have detractors, make the backdrop drivers "make sense". Cue the trademark drawn-out comeback -> finish. I get that the reality was Kawada wanting to keep his "rule of three" for the powerbombs... but if the kayfabe idea is that he wanted to make a statement by submitting Misawa (or having him pass out), it was too early in the feud for that. In their second '99 match that would've made sense (talk about a bleh match between them), but here when he hasn't pinned Misawa decisively in a singles match? The excuse doesn't wash. They weren't working as smart as they had before (it's most notable in the transitions, including that final one), and they didn't have the comparative arsenals to do the "equals" mirrored match that Misawa and Kobashi did in October, though relative to the development of the feuds it would've made more sense here... I mean, it's worth pointing out that their version of "just doing stuff" is better than almost anyone, there're some wonderful "collapse" spots here (an even better one in the Taue match a month later*), they really lay in the strikes (especially early to build strong heat from the off - though the "silent for the first twenty" is slightly misnomic anyway)... but as a whole (particularly relative to their previous three TC matches) it's just... there. *As for the Taue match, I'll re-watch it either tonight or tomorrow as I remember, until the botched finish, it being their second best match together, with the strongest story amongst their later matches (which were, almost as a rule, sprints) and two of my favourite/best ever AJ spots... though, yeah, the finish is urgh.