Matt D

I need to head out in a sec so I've tuned out, but I could see this backfiring somewhat if the crowd is so into RVD that they shit on Bryan winning.

I don't see how else it could have worked. They're building to Cena vs Bryan at Summerslam and especially to Bryan winning the case. Everything they've done on TV for a month was leading towards it. Bryan was much more the centerpiece of the show than the Cena/Henry feud. On the one hand, I think Bryan vs Cena could have been an attraction match, if only because they DID build him, but in that case, with the belt and the case not involved, I don't know how they would have built to it. I also don't know who they would have put up against World Champion Henry except for maybe Orton and that doesn't seem like enough to main event Summerslam to me (nor does Bryan vs Cena sans belt). This is pretty much the way it had to be.

Now that I've finished the available matches for 1979, i wanted to double back and talk about Buddy's year before moving on. I've gone over this before, but, to me, to really judge and analyze and understand a wrestler, you have to look at an entire body of work. You learn something different in a five minute squash than you do in a sixty minute broadway. You learn something different in a tag match than a singles. You learn something different seeing the wrestler against a smaller opponent than a larger. You learn something different in a gimmicked blood match than a more straightforward title matches. The range of output we have from Buddy Rose in 79 is amazing. He has all those things and more. He has 2/3 falls matches, tag matches with two main partners of wildly varying experience and style, six man tags, squashes vs JTTS, blood feuds, gimmick matches, hair matches, and a ton of promos to go along with them. It's staggering the variation in the twenty-five or so matches I saw and wrote about. Even more staggering is that these are just the Saturday shows. So many of his actual blow-off matches were in Portland on Tuesday and as far as I'm aware we don't have those. Portland television is a lot like Memphis as went through the same loop every week as well as having frequent Tuesday night arena shows. They weren't every week but were often three times a month when things were hot, which they were in 70. Also, like Memphis, they had to utilize a lot of the same talent to fill the same buildings every week. The big difference is that the Portland Saturday show was also in the main (promoter-owned) arena, and they make the claim that the sponsors demanded high-level matches, which may be kayfabed and may be not, but it means that there were lengthy, high-end matches, quite often with real finishes every week. The other big difference, of course was one of style: Portland had a ton of 2/3 fall matches. I love Memphis TV but you didn't often get long meaningful matches on it. That was for the Monday night MSC shows. People judge wrestlers and matches differently. One thing that is very important to me is to try to figure out what a wrestler is trying to accomplish or achieve in a match and to see if they manage it or not, and how they do so. Buddy, in my opinion, had to accomplish two major things. 1) First and foremost he had to draw people to the Tuesday show and the weekly loop of shows. Whatever happened on Saturday had to incite the fans to spend their money on Tuesday (when applicable) and throughout the rest of the week. Since Owen owned the arena, being able to promote as many well-drawing Tuesday shows as possible was a huge deal moneywise. 2) It was also important people both attended and tuned into the Saturday night show, so while leaving the fans wanting more was important, giving them something substantial, their money and time's worth, was also essential. Moreover, he had to manage this while keeping things fresh and interesting despite the fact they were building to weekly live shows in front of the same audience and all of this had to be done with what I understand to be one of the least star-studded rosters in all the territories. Portland was considered a starting point and did not draw in most of the biggest names on a regular basis. On top of that, the 2/3 falls matches were something of a duel-edged sword. they allowed for all sorts of different structural experimentation and storytelling possibilities and ensured that the matches would be meatier and longer than in other territories on a weekly basis, but they also forced Buddy and friends to come up with an extra two finishes a night, basically, maybe even more considering that they were running in front of the same crowd twice a week most weeks. It meant pulling out every trick in the book and inventing a number more on top of that. Combined with the fact they really wanted to draw people in for the Saturday night show, they couldn't run the constant-match ending brawling breakdowns that were such a staple of Memphis TV. I'll admit that I'm judging what I've seen from concept and performance levels alone. I don't have attendance or rating figures before me. A lot of what I'm judging on is whether I thought something was well done or if it SHOULD have worked. I think there's every sign that it did work. The Portland show was absurdly highly rated and, dealing with one of its biggest challenges in years in 79, being forced to move to late night, still stayed highly rated. I think attendance was good. I'm going to focus on the in-ring though. In short, I think Buddy Rose had an amazing 1979, that he wrestled in numerous different situations, almost all successfully, that he made himself look credible as a heel ace while still showing a ton of ass and making his opponents, big and small, star and undercard guy look exactly as good as they needed to look. He had incredible timing, not just in executing the moves or exchanges in his matches but in knowing when to stall and when to go and knowing when to sell and when to take, and most of all, he was able to give fans more than their money's worth while still making them want more. Very few wrestlers get put in a position where they have so difficult a role to play but also have the time and the means to prove themselves in it. Buddy was in the position and he succeeded magnificently. It's me writing this, so we're going to lead with structure. He didn't wrestle the same match twice in the ones we have. More than that, he barely, if at all, wrestled the same segment of a match twice. The two-three falls are all broken up by fall on youtube. and the times for the falls in various matches are wildly different. More importantly, just about everything is really logical and well-set up. He often uses the 2/3 falls medium to set up something in fall #1 that gets paid off in fall #3 either in a transition or in a finish, which makes a lot of his matches almost poetic in their storytelling. Most of his offensive flurries are body-part related and it's not always the same body part either, even if most often he works over the back, logically, to set up his finisher. I think the most impressive thing Buddy does, past the sheer amount of logical variation, is his ability to be a chickenshit heel that gives a huge amount while still being completely and utterly credible as an ace. At the beginning of the year and really throughout, he was still able to live off of his crippler gimmick. He could hone in on a body part and within three or four minutes believably take a pin in a fall. It was believable no matter who he was facing, jobber Jim Gagne or former WWF champion, Stan Stasiak. At the same time, he could spend a whole fall running from the Heart Punch or trying to avoid being in the ring at the same time as Roddy Piper in a tag match. He could take a powder after getting punched in the face or do one of his elaborate matwork/holds openings where he kept getting shown up by the babyface no matter what level of escalation he tried. He could do any of this stuff and he did, but at a moment's notice he'd be able to underhandedly or even legitimately take over and the fans would buy it completely. There aren't many guys in the history of wrestling that could manage that so believably and so well, and they're the guys who often come up when discussing the GOAT. There's such a community feel to Portland whether it's plugging referee Sandy Barr's flea market or pointing out a local newscaster's brother in the crowd. When the time change happened, these people went home and watched the show again so that they could see themselves on TV. It was that sort of community. They knew Buddy and Buddy knew them. He was great at knowing when to stop the action to acknowledge them, when to jaw with Barr for a while or let Barr get one over on him by reversing a hair pull or to use Dutch Savage or Down Owen in their role as management as a prop, even in the middle of a match.. He knew when to argue with the ever-present granny in the front row. He knew when to swarm an opponent from the outside in a tag match. He knew when to beg off. He knew when to take a powder and he knew when to hide in the ropes. He knew when to bring in humor and to make himself look bufoonish and when to bring the intensity and make the crowd yell for his blood. He just had a great sense of what the people would react to and when to pull it out of his arsenal and he varied it. You wouldn't often see him stall in the same way for the same reason two matches in a row. All that stalling and jawing and what not didn't mean he couldn't go. He has great opening stretches in his matches, able to keep up with anyone they brought in. He has that really entertaining shtick where he gets outwrestled which shined brightest against guys who could really work holds like Johnny Eagles, but that he was able to utilize to make greener guys look a lot more interesting too. He has not just varied and believable offense but a lot of innovative offense too. I know that's not a high selling point in most situations but I think when you're in front of the same crowd so much it is important. He and Wiskowski had a crippling second rope kneedrop/backbreaker combo that was years before its time. I asked Dave Meltzer about it in an e-mail and he said he couldn't remember anyone doing that sort of thing before then. The Billy Robinson backbreaker is a great finisher for not just the time but any time. More than that, he has these finishing segments, especially in big matches where there are not just finisher teases that are again ahead of their time, but where he even occasionally tries to steal his opponents finisher as a FU, almost always leading to his comeuppance. Most of all, he was able to deliver on what he had to do. He would work elements into his matches that foreshadowed or forced the upcoming gimmick blowoff, but he would use these elements in logical ways that were absolutely organic parts of the action. Yes, it was him keeping away from the person he'd be wrestling in a tag match and teasing the crowd with it or getting over an opponent's finisher in a tag match as something that could finally be the thing to vanquish him in a singles match. It was more than that, though. He would give the fans just as much as they needed to get riled, would give the babyface just as much as he needed to really seem believable as an opponent, would attack in the right sort of underhanded manner to inflame the passions of both for the match to come. Some of it was absolutely the booking, but that Buddy was able to work these forward-looking stories into his matches through his work itself was really the sign of being a master of his craft. So just how good was Buddy in 1979? He was good enough that, based on what we have from TV, I can't think of a wrestler that had a more complete year in the role of a television ace. Some of that is the selection of what we have and the opportunities he was given, but when you take a look at what we DON'T have: the big blowoff matches where he would be given even more of an opportunity to shine, it makes it all the more astounding the sheer talent, expertise and pro wrestling quality we can see in him in what we do.

I am okay with this. It's all Parv being a laggard and just getting to this that is the issue.

I will say that part of why I do dislike it so strongly is because of the other strengths in the match. They have this match that should have been great and they just utterly destroy it. And then they run it a few weeks later and make it absolutely great. Wrestling isn't math. It you add up the composite parts, the first cage match is probably mathematically great. Instead, it's chemistry. There's one element added to the mix and it causes the whole thing to turn sour. Obviously, I realize my position is extreme and maybe a little overblown. I'm still sticking to it.

i haven't seen Final Conflict in years. I think there's a "Road to Greensboro" thing on youtube that leads up to it, no? I'd like to watch all that again and then watch it before commenting and I've got a lot on my plate right now, but I'll get to it. I'll look at the rest of what you said and give you a reply on Monday. It's a sort of busy weekend here.

I don't know if I regret not ending up having time to listening to this one or if I'm glad?

Can someone set that to Fandango's music and loop it on youtube?

I can't stop watching that.

I love the way Dylan says "Kofi Kingston" when talking about Cesaro. There's such disgust and disdain and disbelief.

Which is a relief because I'm not sure if I would be able to remember if I liked that 86 Rockers vs Rose/Somers cage match or not without it.

Parv, I'm not grabbing all of these for you, but since you had it so high, here's the hour long match. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/sear...=clnk&gl=us

Parv, I would not want to rob you of the joy of reading my insane rant: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/sear...=clnk&gl=us

I think I've harped on this plenty. Others haven't quite as much. I wish we had his late 60s-early 70s work. That to me would be the cross section of his physical prime and when he really probably knew what he was doing.

Rose/Chris Colt vs Borne/King Parsons - January 12, 1980 - One Fall Glad to see Borne. I have no real idea who Colt is. He has a fine sleazy wrestler look and crazy patchwork tights though. Some Buddy shenanigans to begin with him reaching in to pull Borne's hair only to get his own pulled by Barr. Colt grabs the ropes after a running exchange and does a great little spin move taunt before tagging in Buddy. Buddy locks up with Borne but Matt lifts him up and carries him to the ropes leading to some great begging off. They do a little Buddy vs Green Guy full nelson spot before Buddy walks him over to their corner and Colt tags in and takes over. Heels start to work over Borne's arm. Nice little hope spot and hot tag attempt but Colt cuts it off using a nice delaying chinlock til he can get back on the arm. Heels are working well together cutting off the ring, with some good tag spots and doubleteams and full on control. Colt would be a good Bobby Bass partner. We get a missed tag spot and it's the second time I've seen this in a few weeks of tv so I guess they're working it in more. It gets plenty of heat. Colt has some good varied arm holds and Borne is selling them well while in them. The story here is definitely superior heel experience, full of distractions and hairgrabs from the outside to cut off hope spots. Borne finally jumps for the tag and the crowd goes nuts, as well they should. Good FIP. Parsons is animated coming in, including a hilarious chicken taunt. Faces toss the heels into each other and they take a powder. Borne remembers to sell the arm when he gets to the apron so that's nice at least. Parsons headbutts left and right an dwe get a brilliant heel miscommunication spot where Colt does a slingshot shoulder tackle but Parsons moves. He's cleaning house and this is very entertaining. Finally, parson misses a huge headbutt in the corner but he reverses Colt into the corner and Colt takes a massive physics defying bump into the corner pole. Buddy comes in to cheapshot and Borne breaks it up but this lets colt recover and toss Parsons out. When he makes it back in, Colt does a really big headlock takeover with a floatover, letting the heels take back over and control positioning. Buddy tries to kneedrop Parsons in the head which is a mistake, but Colt does a great trip to take him down. It's a little back and forth here with the heels unable to keep the faces down. Borne does a good neck whip. Buddy finally is reluctant to get in there vs Parsons which seems to be building to a title match between the two. They do a false three count after a Parsons slam, seemingly due to the time running out. Parsons got the visual fall though. This was pretty good. It needed a bit more of a push as time was running out but it made Parsons look like a solid challenge to Buddy and was a pretty good showing for Borne all in all. I really liked what I saw out of Colt.

I honestly think that DVDVR, while having some ebbing and flowing can be pretty worthwhile. It's sort of everything to everyone in a way this board isn't and a real community for good or ill. That it survived the withdrawing into life and other ventures of the Playas as active posters is fairly impressive. That said, PWO has incredible value in places that it doesn't.

I'm watching January 84 Memphis. Quick thoughts: - Lance Russell sounding like a disappointed uncle when Lawler messes up the studio by tarring and feathering people is hilarious. It happens at least two weeks in a row. - They show a few minutes of Dutch vs Tojo - Whip on a pole/Fighting Stick above the ring ladder match. They just show us the section where Dutch gets the stick from the ladder on. Does anyone know if they actually had a few minutes of a match before this or if that's basically all that happened? I assume we don't have any more footage for this since the whole point is the post-match brawling, but it's just such a fun idea for a match.

Khawk, Was Hennig vs Hansen a planned match or did Blackwell really get injured screwing up a long-built Blackwell vs Hansen match?

What I like most about post-86 babyface Piper is his "hulk up" comebacks. He does this punch drunk thing that I find to be one of the most effective of the style. It's weirdly believable.

There's a Piper/Orton vs Orndorff/Andre tag i like.

Parv, go watch Piper vs Perfect MSG from late 90. I'd be curious to hear what you thought about that.

I've rewatched Hansen vs Hennig. I haven't rewatched Martel vs Race. I want to talk about context first. I think context is 100% important because every match in the history of wrestling has a purpose. The wrestlers go out to accomplish something. Sometimes, it's just "have a good match." Sometimes it's not. Some things are harder than others. Sometimes they accomplish something without intending it. Sometimes you get a very good match that fails to accomplish what it's supposed to. There's a really fun go-go-go Jannety vs Johnny Polo match from late 93-early 94 Raw and it's supposed to be Levy being underhanded and cowardly. He went out and controlled a lot of the match and did dives and what not. From most standpoints it's probably a better match than a Jannety vs Chickenshit Manager match would have been, but it was absolutely the wrong match for the situation. JJ Dillon talks about a similar match that he had like that where he wanted to really impress the boys (Levy was frustrated from not being used). To me that matters. I can understand why it wouldn't for someone else. I think you need to try to understand as match as best you can if you're really analyzing it on the level of trying to work out what the best 20 matches of the decade are, or what not. I'm going to have a little more about this to talk about when I talk about Buddy Rose in 1979 in the next few days (sorry). Ok, that out of the way, I actually think the emotional story of Martel vs Race is better without context. If you showed someone who hasn't seen a ton of Martel in AWA that match, you see this kid standing up to Harley fucking Race and holding his own and Race selling huge for him and both guys really presented as equals and the story in your head that you come up with in that situation will be better than the supermatch story of the match itself. I think the Hennig match actually tells a better straight up narrative, and it does it within the confines of the back-and-forth structure, which to me, is very hard. It's a lot harder to tell a good story in a back-and-forth match than to tell one in a match where you have shine/heat/comeback or whatever. There are narratives that work with that structure, escalation being one, one guy resorting to underhanded tactics first is another, etc. I still think it's trickier. Granted, there's a lot of all japan I haven't seen, or whatever. In the Hennig-Hansen match, I think there's more a great narrative of Hennig, either to prove himself or to avenge Blackwell or just because he thinks it's the only chance he has, going all out against Hansen every chance he gets and Hansen, who doesn't take him seriously at first (See the attack on Blackwell after Hennig's first offensive flurry gets cut off) quickly realizing what he's up against. From what I remember, Race-Martel was a lot more of a 50-50 match and in a lot of ways, it's what makes the match work. Both guys are treated as superstars and equals. With Hansen-Hennig, it's much more like 65-35 for Hansen. Because of that, there's sort of a deconstructed heat that is layered throughout the match and what Hennig does aren't comebacks so much as they're him dominating for a stretch. They're not presented as equals and they shouldn't be. Hansen is a force. Hennig is a guy coming out of a team where he was second banana to Scott Hall. If it was a little more even then it would be hard to take seriously; it would seem artificial. If it was a little less even, then it'd a good Hansen vs Young Lion match but it wouldn't elevate Hennig in the way this does. I have some problems with it. I don't like Hennig's late match monkey flip. I get that it smartly sets up a reversal shortly thereafter and a much more important small package, but I think they could have accomplished that with something that felt more in place like a roll up off the ropes or a corner splash or something. I don't love the kneelift at the finish. I wish that Hennig had already had the Axe in his arsenal at this point because that would be a great tease. That said, it could contradict what I wrote above. Maybe that would make things too 50-50, while Hennig just having the advantage at that point even if he didn't have anything close to a surefire pin could actually be more effective in the big picture. In general, it's not my #2, but it's still a great match that effectively tells a very tricky story and I like it way more than either Bock vs Wahoo or Hansen vs Blackwell. I do think there's a difference between Race vs Martel and this match from a storytelling perspective. People are free to disagree with me though.

This made me instantly think of my answer for this question, which is Crush. As in, Hawaiian colourful babyface Crush. I thought he was the new heavyweight superhero babyface, the new Hogan. And believe it or not, my reasoning had a lot of "smart" value to it, as I knew Ax was gone and Smash went on to become Repo Man, leading me to think, "Okay, Crush gets to be Crush still. He must be a big deal." Then he lost to the Doinks and his stock immediately dropped in my eyes. I still think Crush was super over in late 92. It's before he'd really taken on the accent.

Sicko. I wish someone would watch those Buddy Rose vs Stan Stasiak matches and tell me if I'm nuts for liking them so much. Stan brings a lot to the table against Buddy, but I can't entirely tell if he brings a lot of stuff Buddy can use or if he brings a lot of stuff that he himself uses.