Matt D

Parv, I'm not grabbing all of these for you, but since you had it so high, here's the hour long match. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/sear...=clnk&gl=us

Parv, I would not want to rob you of the joy of reading my insane rant: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/sear...=clnk&gl=us

I think I've harped on this plenty. Others haven't quite as much. I wish we had his late 60s-early 70s work. That to me would be the cross section of his physical prime and when he really probably knew what he was doing.

Rose/Chris Colt vs Borne/King Parsons - January 12, 1980 - One Fall Glad to see Borne. I have no real idea who Colt is. He has a fine sleazy wrestler look and crazy patchwork tights though. Some Buddy shenanigans to begin with him reaching in to pull Borne's hair only to get his own pulled by Barr. Colt grabs the ropes after a running exchange and does a great little spin move taunt before tagging in Buddy. Buddy locks up with Borne but Matt lifts him up and carries him to the ropes leading to some great begging off. They do a little Buddy vs Green Guy full nelson spot before Buddy walks him over to their corner and Colt tags in and takes over. Heels start to work over Borne's arm. Nice little hope spot and hot tag attempt but Colt cuts it off using a nice delaying chinlock til he can get back on the arm. Heels are working well together cutting off the ring, with some good tag spots and doubleteams and full on control. Colt would be a good Bobby Bass partner. We get a missed tag spot and it's the second time I've seen this in a few weeks of tv so I guess they're working it in more. It gets plenty of heat. Colt has some good varied arm holds and Borne is selling them well while in them. The story here is definitely superior heel experience, full of distractions and hairgrabs from the outside to cut off hope spots. Borne finally jumps for the tag and the crowd goes nuts, as well they should. Good FIP. Parsons is animated coming in, including a hilarious chicken taunt. Faces toss the heels into each other and they take a powder. Borne remembers to sell the arm when he gets to the apron so that's nice at least. Parsons headbutts left and right an dwe get a brilliant heel miscommunication spot where Colt does a slingshot shoulder tackle but Parsons moves. He's cleaning house and this is very entertaining. Finally, parson misses a huge headbutt in the corner but he reverses Colt into the corner and Colt takes a massive physics defying bump into the corner pole. Buddy comes in to cheapshot and Borne breaks it up but this lets colt recover and toss Parsons out. When he makes it back in, Colt does a really big headlock takeover with a floatover, letting the heels take back over and control positioning. Buddy tries to kneedrop Parsons in the head which is a mistake, but Colt does a great trip to take him down. It's a little back and forth here with the heels unable to keep the faces down. Borne does a good neck whip. Buddy finally is reluctant to get in there vs Parsons which seems to be building to a title match between the two. They do a false three count after a Parsons slam, seemingly due to the time running out. Parsons got the visual fall though. This was pretty good. It needed a bit more of a push as time was running out but it made Parsons look like a solid challenge to Buddy and was a pretty good showing for Borne all in all. I really liked what I saw out of Colt.

I honestly think that DVDVR, while having some ebbing and flowing can be pretty worthwhile. It's sort of everything to everyone in a way this board isn't and a real community for good or ill. That it survived the withdrawing into life and other ventures of the Playas as active posters is fairly impressive. That said, PWO has incredible value in places that it doesn't.

I'm watching January 84 Memphis. Quick thoughts: - Lance Russell sounding like a disappointed uncle when Lawler messes up the studio by tarring and feathering people is hilarious. It happens at least two weeks in a row. - They show a few minutes of Dutch vs Tojo - Whip on a pole/Fighting Stick above the ring ladder match. They just show us the section where Dutch gets the stick from the ladder on. Does anyone know if they actually had a few minutes of a match before this or if that's basically all that happened? I assume we don't have any more footage for this since the whole point is the post-match brawling, but it's just such a fun idea for a match.

Khawk, Was Hennig vs Hansen a planned match or did Blackwell really get injured screwing up a long-built Blackwell vs Hansen match?

What I like most about post-86 babyface Piper is his "hulk up" comebacks. He does this punch drunk thing that I find to be one of the most effective of the style. It's weirdly believable.

There's a Piper/Orton vs Orndorff/Andre tag i like.

Parv, go watch Piper vs Perfect MSG from late 90. I'd be curious to hear what you thought about that.

I've rewatched Hansen vs Hennig. I haven't rewatched Martel vs Race. I want to talk about context first. I think context is 100% important because every match in the history of wrestling has a purpose. The wrestlers go out to accomplish something. Sometimes, it's just "have a good match." Sometimes it's not. Some things are harder than others. Sometimes they accomplish something without intending it. Sometimes you get a very good match that fails to accomplish what it's supposed to. There's a really fun go-go-go Jannety vs Johnny Polo match from late 93-early 94 Raw and it's supposed to be Levy being underhanded and cowardly. He went out and controlled a lot of the match and did dives and what not. From most standpoints it's probably a better match than a Jannety vs Chickenshit Manager match would have been, but it was absolutely the wrong match for the situation. JJ Dillon talks about a similar match that he had like that where he wanted to really impress the boys (Levy was frustrated from not being used). To me that matters. I can understand why it wouldn't for someone else. I think you need to try to understand as match as best you can if you're really analyzing it on the level of trying to work out what the best 20 matches of the decade are, or what not. I'm going to have a little more about this to talk about when I talk about Buddy Rose in 1979 in the next few days (sorry). Ok, that out of the way, I actually think the emotional story of Martel vs Race is better without context. If you showed someone who hasn't seen a ton of Martel in AWA that match, you see this kid standing up to Harley fucking Race and holding his own and Race selling huge for him and both guys really presented as equals and the story in your head that you come up with in that situation will be better than the supermatch story of the match itself. I think the Hennig match actually tells a better straight up narrative, and it does it within the confines of the back-and-forth structure, which to me, is very hard. It's a lot harder to tell a good story in a back-and-forth match than to tell one in a match where you have shine/heat/comeback or whatever. There are narratives that work with that structure, escalation being one, one guy resorting to underhanded tactics first is another, etc. I still think it's trickier. Granted, there's a lot of all japan I haven't seen, or whatever. In the Hennig-Hansen match, I think there's more a great narrative of Hennig, either to prove himself or to avenge Blackwell or just because he thinks it's the only chance he has, going all out against Hansen every chance he gets and Hansen, who doesn't take him seriously at first (See the attack on Blackwell after Hennig's first offensive flurry gets cut off) quickly realizing what he's up against. From what I remember, Race-Martel was a lot more of a 50-50 match and in a lot of ways, it's what makes the match work. Both guys are treated as superstars and equals. With Hansen-Hennig, it's much more like 65-35 for Hansen. Because of that, there's sort of a deconstructed heat that is layered throughout the match and what Hennig does aren't comebacks so much as they're him dominating for a stretch. They're not presented as equals and they shouldn't be. Hansen is a force. Hennig is a guy coming out of a team where he was second banana to Scott Hall. If it was a little more even then it would be hard to take seriously; it would seem artificial. If it was a little less even, then it'd a good Hansen vs Young Lion match but it wouldn't elevate Hennig in the way this does. I have some problems with it. I don't like Hennig's late match monkey flip. I get that it smartly sets up a reversal shortly thereafter and a much more important small package, but I think they could have accomplished that with something that felt more in place like a roll up off the ropes or a corner splash or something. I don't love the kneelift at the finish. I wish that Hennig had already had the Axe in his arsenal at this point because that would be a great tease. That said, it could contradict what I wrote above. Maybe that would make things too 50-50, while Hennig just having the advantage at that point even if he didn't have anything close to a surefire pin could actually be more effective in the big picture. In general, it's not my #2, but it's still a great match that effectively tells a very tricky story and I like it way more than either Bock vs Wahoo or Hansen vs Blackwell. I do think there's a difference between Race vs Martel and this match from a storytelling perspective. People are free to disagree with me though.

This made me instantly think of my answer for this question, which is Crush. As in, Hawaiian colourful babyface Crush. I thought he was the new heavyweight superhero babyface, the new Hogan. And believe it or not, my reasoning had a lot of "smart" value to it, as I knew Ax was gone and Smash went on to become Repo Man, leading me to think, "Okay, Crush gets to be Crush still. He must be a big deal." Then he lost to the Doinks and his stock immediately dropped in my eyes. I still think Crush was super over in late 92. It's before he'd really taken on the accent.

Sicko. I wish someone would watch those Buddy Rose vs Stan Stasiak matches and tell me if I'm nuts for liking them so much. Stan brings a lot to the table against Buddy, but I can't entirely tell if he brings a lot of stuff Buddy can use or if he brings a lot of stuff that he himself uses.

So I guess I'm going to be watching 1984 Memphis TV now.

Can we start a pool on how long Johnny lasts before his life of hard living gets the better of him?

Ah, that I can understand. Wrestling, to me, is symbolic and what matters isn't how something looks but how it's presented and built up. It's like any other element of fiction to me. That's a personal thing. I get others feeling otherwise. I bought the Five Fingered Death Touch in Kill Bill because how they presented it and I buy the 619 here since it's pretty damn well protected and over (and that's even without the meticulous set up).

For the last many years Rey's matches have been laid out around him trying to get guys into the 619 position. It's a narrative thrust to almost every match he's had for the last what, five years? When he was first using it, I do think people stumbled in there but now, whole swaths of his matches are consciously built around him trying to position guys and people countering or not. It's very, very overt and hardly people stumbling into position anymore. Now, that might not be interesting to you as a match-watcher, and that's fine, but it's as logical and organic in his matches as armwork in an Arn Anderson match both in concept and execution. Trust me, I started watching wrestling again in 09 and I was expecting to absolutely hate all the 619 stuff when I saw Rey and i was floored by how well put together his matches were being that they were all centered around him trying to position his opponent for the 619.

Weirdly, this has made me want to revisit the booking around Cena vs Lesnar from last year. The main premise of the original post here is that the way last night was "booked" if it were "booked" was counter-intuitive if they wanted to make any sort of lasting, meaningful money from this.

It's an issue, regardless. Far more than Rey's positioning of guys which is something he actively and logically shoots for. His offense is set up in order to do that. From a kayfabe perspective, he conspires and even sacrifices better offensive positioning in order to set up guys for that since it's such a killer move for him. At first I was annoyed on principle but after actually watching a lot of matches I ended up impressed not annoyed. I think the "Flair won the NWA world title with a flying body press" logic is very, very weak, however, even weaker than Everyone Powerbombs Kidman because hell, I'd want to powerbomb Kidman too if I had the chance. One of my favorite wrestling moments (and I've mentioned this before) was seeing Tully hit a prone smash with a double axe handle from the second rope since that somehow validated every time someone randomly jumped into someone's foot. at least someone it hit once.

Rey is very good at getting guys into that position though.

Do we have to go back to Slaughter's Super Destroyer days for this to make sense? Do we have any footage of him being Beautiful Bob Remus or whatever?

I wasn't really watching in 97, so I missed the time where WCW was really on top and since I grew up as a much bigger WCW fan than a WWF fan, that bugged me. So I was sort of a WCW cheerleader at the start of all this, with the cruiserweights and Jericho getting me back into things in 98. So when Russo/Ferrara jumped, I was excited because I thought it'd matter and that everything would turn around. It seemed like a huge deal on paper when we didn't actually know much. You can only imagine how those expectations made me feel a few weeks later.

I didn't realize Heenan was still doing Thunder. Poor bastard.

Face Adonis is pretty great once you get past how jarring it is; especially good in tags.

Buddy vs Yaki Joe, 2/3 Falls, 12/29/79 What a way to end 79. Joe's announced from Mexico. Buddy's playing up his hair matches (apparently he beat Bastein in one too). He's lost the cage matches vs Roddy so he wants a hair match with him. The stunt granny has a sheriff's badge. She's pissed at Buddy for stalling. That's pretty great. Sandy Barr is screwing with Buddy again, this time pulling his hair after he pulls Joe's. The fans eat it up. Buddy screws around with Barr, mimicking a hip toss to show how Joe pulled his tights. Pretty funny stuff. The payoff is Buddy pulling joe's hair again to get out of a top wristlock and eventually allowing him to really work on the arm. After a few minutes Joe chops his way out. The way Buddy sells the overhead ones to the skull is so great. Buddy's getting mauled and the sheepherders run in, not even doing anything, to cause the disqualification for the first fall. Interesting switch up of structure making Buddy look vulnerable without him actually eating a pin. Buddy and the herders pantomime illegal chops in front of Barr and it's pretty funny. Very silly for them to interfere and cost the fall like that without doing any damage though. The sheepherders want to stay out on the floor but Barr threatens to DQ Buddy immediately if they stay. The fans count them out and we start the second fall. Buddy stooges big, trying to sneak behind Joe and hitting the floor to avoid the chop. From what I've seen Joe isn't great, so they might be stooging and stalling a lot to deal with that. We get an extended knucklelock back and forth which Buddy makes work really well. Hair pull to get out. Buddy hooks a leg but ends up in a body scissors. Joe keeps pulling him back and sort of atomic dropping Buddy into the mat and then starts rolling around with him. That was kind of entertaining for a moment but goes a bit too long. Buddy finally gets positioning on Joe and mauls the face to get out. He's portraying being really pissed off here, stomping and roughing up the face. Somewhere in there Buddy ties Joe's shoelesses together which leads to this great little spot with Buddy irish whipping Joe on his face a few times, ultimately working on the back and face until he does the trip again and hooks in the Robinson backbreaker. Great burst of intensity and hatred out of Buddy there. Third fall starts with Buddy gloating and Joe pissed off. He immediately attacks the leg and gets Buddy in a toehold. They go back to the hairpulling with Barr pulling Rose's hair for the third or fourth time and they get points for an ongoing narrative at least. The leg work here isn't dynamic or anything but it's varied enough with Buddy fighting enough that it's not so bad. Joe finally gets a weird leglock I've never seen but it lets Buddy get under the ropes. Joe works over Buddy out of the corner a couple of times but charges into the post and gets rolled up deep for the pin. It's a typical flair sort of finish but I really haven't seen Buddy go to it much if at all in 79 so it seems sort of novel here. There was some good stuff here but I wouldn't tell anyone to go out of their way for it. If you want to get a picture of what Buddy could do with a guy with marginal talent over 25 minutes and three falls this wasn't bad though.