Matt D

I think the album comparison has some limitations. On an album it is a single creative voice (or at least a single team of creative voices) creating a coherent product. With a wrestling show, there are multiple voices but there are considerations. The TV leading to a match should impact what creative decisions they do within the match. The other matches on the show should as well since you can't have blood in four matches in a row, etc. Also, what was done last month matches. You can build spots and reversals between matches sure, but also an ongoing storyline that's played out through ringwork. It can work in obtuse ways, too. They specifically put Race vs Haku on the Royal Rumble 1989 card in order to portray Heenan as having split interests as a way to conceptually show a potential example of the Elizabeth issue for Wrestlemania. I think it adds a few percentage points of interest to the Mania match to have seen Haku vs Race first as weird as it sounds. I honestly believe that having watched it. It doesn't move the dial much but it does move it a little. So really it comes back to WHY you are watching. If you're watching to fully understand how good a wrestler is, it makes sense to watch as much of you can of him, including the context around his matches and building up his matches. If you're watching to compare one great match against another to figure out which matches are the greatest, well, it's not nearly as important. If you want to really understand a match in time, then you should watch as much as possible. I watch to kill time, to be able to talk with you fine people, and to have as detailed an understanding of this thing that I love. I feel like I can't do that without seeing as much footage as possible about a single period in time (including magazine articles and WON stories from the era and shoot interviews and whatever else). I honestly enjoy it so it's not work to me and I never feel like I'm missing out because I didn't have time to see some recently pimped NJPW or indy show. If something is thoroughly good enough that I should see it, then I have people whose opinion I trust who will tell me that and I'll see it. In the meantime, I'm happy going about watching what I want to watch with something like an 80s project or DVDVR's March Madness to pull me at least somewhat out of my comfort zone now and again.

I feel like the only person I'm going to trust on this is Bix and maybe John.

It's really the only meaningful post-87 Babyface work of his career. I actually think a match that everyone who's been following the AWA set needs to see is Martel/Hennig vs Jumbo/Haku from April, 1990 since it really shows how neutered two of the very best guys on the AWA 80s set had become in the WWF.

I do think he had a quite good and underrated 1993 as a babyface if you dig a bit, but yeah, his pre-89 stuff is just on a different level than his WWF work.

Buddy vs Pardee (in progress), Oct 27, 1979 Pardee has a crew cut from his Playboy match and he starts out here by doing 18 armwrenches in a row. Obviously he's gunning for some revenge here and the crowd is behind him. Buddy pushes back but misses a punch hitting the ringpost as the crowd goes nuts. Pretty standard but effective armwork segment here. And it's varied enough and sold well enough by Buddy to make it work. Neither here nor there but the promotion was pretty great at this point. Sam Bass just came back and he wanted a piece of Rose still. Bastien was there to avenge Pardee who was actively trying to avenge himself and Piper was there for blood against Buddy too. They really set things up really well by having the babyfaces wanting revenge for all the heat Buddy got on them. Anyway, Buddy trapped him in the corner and took over, still making sure to sell his arm. Pardee fights back out of a chinlock but they do a nice little thing in delaying hte comeback for another second as he has to reverse a turnbuckle shot too. Pardee has a fiery comeback and keeps trying to get the pin on Buddy, but he tries for a splash and actually gets flipped over Buddy's knees in a kind of cool looking little spot. Then we get the repetition as Rose goes for his own and eats Pardee's knees. Pardee gets some shots in but Buddy hits the Robinson backbreaker out of nowhere. He picks him up at two and hits it again for the pin. Nice little match. The Army (Buddy/Kiwi Sheepherders) vs Piper/Bass/Bastein - 2/3 falls - Oct 27, 1979 This is exactly what I was saying about the face side. I am going to be amazed if this match isn't downright awesome. Some great Rose stooging to begin as he feeds right into Bastein's shots and does a fun little "Wrong corner"s spot before tagging out. Rose is always an really tangible presence on the apron in these crazy six man matches. You get the idea he could make an impact interfering at any moment. I can't tell which one is Luke and which one is Butch, but I think it's Miller who has a frenetic little rope running spot with Piper, lots of stalling and then the same spot held off only to end with a Bastein shot from the outside. The heels try an inversion of the shot and Roddy fights his way out with insane babyface energy. Clever and entertaining stuff. They're also doing a great job of keeping Rose from being in too long so while he'll get a momentary shot, he's not eating a lot of offense so the crowd keeps wanting more. I could watch Roddy vs the Sheepherders all day. Williams finally chokes him into the heel corner and we get a transition as Bastein tries to break it up but just distracts the ref allowing a heel mauling. This is a great little FIP with almost constant hope spots that are cut off by swarming teamwork and ring positioning. The best part is when Williams does a single arm rollback takedown to move Piper back to his corner, but Roddy randomly attacking the heel corner first on a comeback to try to stop them from stopping him is great too. Buddy hits a huge flying back elbow too. The hot tag is ultimately not super, but Bastein's comes in and cleans house well, putting Buddy in the sleeper to help set up the hair match on tuesday and that's the first fall. We get the goofy stuff that comes with the Sheepherders waking up Buddy between falls. Second fall starts with the Sheepherders ambushing Bastein in the corner. This goes quick with Buddy nailing the back multiple times before hitting a really cool backbreaker into Miller's knee in the corner three times before hitting one of his own for a sudden fall. I didn't dislike it and it was definitely a structural switch from every other match we'd seen. Third fall has them starting on Bastein including some particularly nasty stuff from the Sheepherders before Bastein reverses a Robinson backbreaker attempt and hits an atomic drop of his own and then the hot tag to Bass. I really love how they can interrupt a heat segment with a pin in these two/three fall matches but still make it seem like part of a broader story. It all breaks down here with he babyfaces beating on the heels until a cheapshot leads to a quick heat segment on Bass and a hot tag to Piper bringing things full circle from the beginning of the match until we finally get Rose and Piper facing off. Everything breaks down again as we get the time limit draw and another visual of Bastein putting the sleeper on Rose to set up Tuesday. The third fall was pretty unsatisfying but as a whole it was a lot of fun, very smart and super effective. Good stuff.

I don't have the attention span to watch more thing 2-3 really good, long matches at a time, not by myself that is.

Also, "watching," is sort of a misnomer for what I do sometimes. I'll listen/half watch Superstars and Wrestling challenge while at work in the background of one of my two monitors in order to get the context. Then for the bigger matches I'll watch them while a captive audience on an exercise bike. That's how I tend to watch WWF. I rarely use "bike time" for a Superstars unless it's got more of a key match.

I find it relevant. I've also refined my thoughts on the matter through watching a ton of Buddy Rose in context, in order and not just the stuff that would make a comp.

That seems like the sort of thing Mark Evanier would have talked about but I can't find it on his site. I know he talks about the problems reality show writers have to deal with.

I think it depends on why you're watching. The example I always give is Vader vs Duggan from Starccade 94. It was worked as a brawl with zero big man spots because Avalanche vs Sting was the higher billed match later in the night. You can watch it in a bubble but you won't fully understand the why of it without understanding the whole show. Now, then, you don't need to actually WATCH the whole shot to do that and you can probably enjoy it (or not enjoy it) whether you know or not.

Full Shows? I like seeing things completely in context. I'm watching everything I can get my hands on for 1994 WWF now. Superstars/challenge, the few AAW/Manias that are online, fancams, coliseum matches, Raws, etc. Full shows is sort of the bare minimum unless someone wants me to watch a specific match. For the Portland stuff I'm watching I'm lucky since the guy is posting the promos too, at least. As for judging a wrestler, I still think "great matches" is a terrible way to do it and seeing what a wrestler does in different situations (some of which almost certainly set up to lead to a bad match) is a much, much better way of doing it.

I just happened to hit that Raw naturally today in my 1994 WWF watching. Tatanka is the worst promo. I'm not sure there's anyone in WWF in 1989-1994 that was worse than him. Warrior might be incomprehensible but he made it work for the most part. Tatanka just doesn't know what words mean. Like "bestow."

There's something to that. Dibiase turned Herc, Bossman, Virgil, and later on Bam Bam.

I wish you guys had gotten into the rumor of Heyman being the one to screw up the Lawler vs Luger unification match. Also, that Sting vs Rude flash is PROBABLY the single most important night of wrestling I had as a youth watching. Eaton being a secret turncoat and trying to delay Sting is one of the most vivid memories I have from that period. The Larry stuff on WCW Chicago TV post turn is really good. he has lots of local promos where they treat him like a returning hero. The rumor I remember is that they were going to bring in Diamond Studd to the DA, not Big Josh. I know Borne certainly didn't mention anything like that in his shoot. He had the US tag belt earlier in the year with Simmons but I don't remember past that. He was out the second Watts came in though.

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/273429-ran...-bryan-and-more Orton's absolutely hilarious in this.

Archibald Peck?

Rose vs Red Bastein - Oct 20, 1979 I'm not sure I'e seen much of Bastein. Set up is tons of fun. He comes in masked and takes it off at the start of the match as Buddy is freaking out. The idea is that Buddy would have never signed this match otherwise. Buddy shouts that this isn't a hair match. They send Rip away again. Bastein clears house and knocks Buddy out of the ring. They come back in and start working a grinding headlock base with Buddy desperate to get out. He goes back to this sort of thing now and again, but he works it really well, and it's not always the same thing either. This time it's a side headlock and Buddy keeps trying to cheat only to get stopped by Barr. Bastein looks like a grizzled old bastard. This is maybe a bit too grindy considering the heat at the beginning of the match. They switch things up with a few punches or Bastein running the turnbuckle around with the headlock or Buddy trying to turn him into a pin but it's maybe a bit too much of the same here. There is a fun spot where Buddy tries to get out of the ring only to get pulled back in. Out of context, I can see why Barr's refereeing would frustrate people but he was completely part of the act. HA, Bastein goes up the turnbuckle again but Buddy nails him with a belly to back. That was satisfying. I love repetition spots leading to comebacks. Love it. Buddy goes straight to the back too. Bastein reverses it and gets the sleeper on to put Rose out. Now that Rose lost, they play it up like he has to give him a hair match. This was an effective match. I thought the headlock stuff went a bit long without enough variation but they really paid it off in a satisfying way and this one time, I was okay with the heat segment being really short since it sets up the next match. Sometimes less is more and this really worked as a sub-ten minute match. It wasn't the most exciting thing in the world but it sure accomplished what it set out to do. The post match promo where Bastein calls Buddy pumpkin head is weirdly hilarious. He's there to get revenge for Pardee which is an awesome little story.

Adams is totally an Arn Anderson type. Madison is sort of like Jefferson's Tully come to think of it.

Honestly, the trick is to do what Watts did in 84 and what Hunter actually did in 2006 and tie himself to a hot talent and just work tag matches.

Or hey, the 88 Demos vs Harts match which is legitimately great.

I don't even like this match.

I'm just sad that no one else wants to come up with Chikara characters based on Dylan.

Part of me is hugely amused by the fact they are destroying the Kane doesn't have ten good matches argument almost singlehandedly.

I usually fall close in line with Dylan (or closer than most) and the strap match is, at least, not in my bottom 30. the handheld Wahoo vs Manny is 149, but that's another story.

Rose vs Pardee - Hair match - 9/15/79 Buddy insists, after all, that this will be on TV since no one thought he'd win. They ban Rip from ringside and the crowd pops. They shake to begin and weirdly that sort of makes this feel like a big deal. Shine stuff is great. Buddy hits one arm drag and Pardee hits three before Buddy takes a powder. Rip comes back out and keeps brushing the hair. Buddy kicks and goes for a turnbuckle shot but Pardee reverses and hits a bunch of stuff before Buddy begs off and gets out. Crowd is super hot for this. Buddy keeps getting a quick advantage but Pardee turns it around including some really good rope running. Pardee works over the arm and Buddy's selling and stooging is amazing. He takes the hugest bump off of an over the top rope drape and makes it (and Pardee) look like a thousand bucks. The transition is Pardee charging into the corner after Buddy and going shoulder first beginning Buddy's armwork. They keep mentioning Louie Pinzelli who's going to do the haircut and he's a former boxing second and local hair-cut guy and just name dropping him like that adds a lot to the local feel of this. Portland always had such a great warm community feel to it. Anyway Pardee punches out of it, making sure to sell the arm still during his comeback and hits some fairly good looking but simple offense including a legdrop to the gut before Buddy tosses him out in true Bockwinkel fashion, leading to one of the first real king of the mountain segments I've seen out of this era's Buddy. It makes total sense here given the stakes and how energetic young Pardee was. Good stuff and a switch up of structure. They keep things interesting while Pardee is out by having Buddy almost get in with it to Barr. Barr actually wants to DQ Buddy here but Pardee, gallant young lion, refuses to take it. He instead reverses a shot into the ring post. Presuming Buddy is going over here they're doing a lot to really make Pardee look good. He hits a revenge spot on Buddy keeping him out and then lets him back in before really laying it in with running turnbuckle shots. This whole thing was kind of neat since it was a real portland twist. He finally misses a third dropkick as Buddy falls backwards for another transition. Pardee gets an immediate hope sunset flip making the crowd go nuts but Buddy starts in on the back and really begins to grind down. They tease another hope spot with Buddy putting his head down, but he hits the inside backbreaker immediately thereafter and picks up the win. I could have used a slightly hotter finish with Pardee getting a few more shots in before Buddy hit the backbreaker out of nowhere but in general this was really good. It had a good number of transitions but they all built to something and made sense. Buddy and Rip are awesome praying to the increasingly bald Pardee as if he was a monk and then saying that Kojak is in the ring. Good match that put over Pardee pretty well even in losing, that put over the gimmick match, that just made Rose look more formidable. And that just ratcheted up the heat on this stuff all the more for the Adonis loser leaves town match upcoming on Tuesday.