Matt D

As a match, it wasn't great. There were things I liked. Teasing the Bodyslam is a pretty good match story and makes for a fun transition or two. Yoko's cut-offs are great as always. I really liked the transition with the ringpost and Luger's comeback after that. Lawler was pretty fun on commentary. Perfect got a great ovation when he came out. Way too resthold-y though. I understand why it was like that but it hurt the match.

Rose vs Stasiak - 11/17/79 - 2/3 Falls I've really liked their last two matches so I've high hopes for this. Buddy comes out (after a brief prayer) swinging, including a few fun jabs at Barr. He takes a powder and the mind games are on. Opening segment is based around a full nelson with Buddy doing some of his trademark shtick but also getting some more marks than usual for successful wrestling. Buddy does well for a bit through hook or crook but gets shown up. There's a great little hip top point-counterpoint (with a block) spot where Stan just blasts him in the ribs before Buddy hits the outside again. Buddy goes for an arm but Stasiak does a goofy little kip up followed by a B+ for Effort dropkick. Buddy finally drags him below the bottom rope and starts to punch, maul, and bite. Buddy's targeting a gash here, just choking and biting. Stasiak gets some punches back though and Buddy sells it like a Punch Out Character before getting tossed over. Part of why I love Buddy vs Stan so much is how great Buddy makes Stasiak's punches look. This is for the belt so there's a real sense of desperation out of Buddy that's appreciated, and that's even before Stan goes for the heart punch which Buddy scrambles out of. Stan is all over Buddy with huge punches including a haymaker out of the corner to the chest. He lifts him up, heart punch, first fall. Good stuff with Buddy really being logical, vicious, and desperate in his tactics only to get totally overwhelmed by Stan but in a believable way that only helps describe why he was going to such lengths in the first place. Buddy sells the heart punch between falls and tapes up his left fist as well. They have the taped fist match ahead of them still but when sandy goes to take it off (as it's illegal in a title match) Buddy feigns an injury. Buddy stalls big until Sandy just lets him go with it. This goes on and on but Buddy is pretty damn funny in it, pissing off both Stasiak and the crowd plenty until he finally draws Stan in for a cheap shot to the stomach that keels him right over. Buddy tries to convince Barr that he kicked him and the question of whether the hand is loaded enters into things. Stan comes back in and starts working over the hand. Buddy keeps trying to convince the crowd that he's not hurt when he spent so long convincing everyone he was. Great stuff. Stasiak nails Buddy with some more great punches before Buddy gets him in the midsection again. Stasiak gets up a keeps using the side-headlock/punch combo while doing all he can not to let Buddy get that punch in. Everytime they get some distance Buddy nails him in the midsection though. This is simple stuff but very well executed. They go so far as to have Barr keep trying to block Buddy's punch during a King of the Mountain. The gimmicked hand is really over as a threat at this point. It pays off perfectly as Stan comes back in and blocks the KO punch, hammering back a few times til Buddy nails a left out of nowhere for the second fall. Third fall starts with Stasiak's right hand taped. They start out boxing on the idea that both guys' have one hand that'll be instant death and whoever gets the first punch in will be golden. Buddy gets Stan in the ribs first with some cheapshots and we get a rare Portland chinlock with the idea that Buddy is just containing this deadly weapon here. Stan works the position though until he can get one taped fist punch to the leg to get out. Buddy sells it like death. Rose comes back in they tease a Stasiak punch but Buddy runs for it. This time Stan follows him out and nails him on the ring post though. Buddy comes back in with color and we get a KOTM segment where Stasiak keeps nailing Buddy with his taped fisted when he tries to come in. The crowd is loving this especially after he chases him out and pummels. They both end up on the apron with Stan just destroying Buddy as the ref counts. Finally, he gets the heart punch on the apron but Buddy falls through the ropes into the ring and beats the count. It's the most awesome bullshit title change ever. The sheepherders come out an drape the belt over reeling Buddy. This was great both as a match on its own and like almost every single match we've seen in 79 as a match to build smartly to the live show on Tuesday. I don't know if there's ever been a wrestler at building to a life card than Buddy. Even Lawler sort of pales in comparison to this stuff.

I don't think that's where goc was coming from though. I certainly think a MMA fan who's come over due to Lesnar would have a problem with it. That's possible. I think it's true with casual fans as well. I think very few of the core WWE viewing audience, young or old, would have a problem with it. Maybe they should throw out more packages of Punk fighting larger guys as part of the hype for this for the people that haven't been following along, or even put him over Clay/Tensai/Khali/etc as a tweener in the lead up to this?

I do more or less accept S.L.L.'s input as reasonable here and appreciate that I am taking a fairly extreme view. I just don't have much of a gap between those moments. Maybe it's because I don't really watch in a group anymore. Not sure. Most of our discussions here are highly analytical though. In fact my only reason to doubt Punk at all in this role is how he was booked in the last few months in his reign, which has nothing to do with his physical appearance.

So Hunter's new gimmick is hilarious. He goes around on television and passive aggressively tells everyone that the product is meh.

And at the level people examine and discuss this stuff here, is that us? I mean if it is, more power to you, because you can appreciate things on a level I can't really tap into anymore. I'm just not sure how to even discuss that as a personal talking point. We could as a general one.

I just think it's a little ridiculous in 2013 not to buy someone who was booked strongly and who wrestled fairly well and smartly in matches against Taker and Henry that I don't think anyone complained about from that level being able to wrestle against someone who can really beat people up. I just don't even understand how "suspension of disbelief" is even a thing that any of us deal with, to be honest. I tend to think that even when we enjoy a match, it's generally because we understand the match is executed and put together well and when an angle really moves us it's because we understand that it was put together well and executed well and because they actually didn't screw it up for once, that we care about the people behind the characters getting able to ply their trade in an effective way. I'm honestly not sure I know how to engage with someone who is having a problem with his suspension of disbelief on this board. Therefore, my first instinct was the rather simplistic "wrestling is fake."

I feel like all of us are just sort of waiting to see who will throw the white flag in first to save this poor bastard.

And why wouldn't they? There was a three match series between Mark Henry and Punk from last April and it was probably babyface Punk's best series of matches and Punk wrestled accordingly and it worked. I can understand why someone who is 7 would have a hard time mustering a suspension of disbelief when it came to this but we understand that wrestling is fiction. There's no inherent reason to think that in the confines of professional wrestling a wrestler who's been presented as a threat to the Undertaker and that held the belt with a number of successful defenses for the better part of a year and a half can't stand up against a hulking beast who's been presented as a guy who needs his manager to help him beat a semi-retired lunk with wet tights and weird foam stuff on his chest. Wrestling in 2013 doesn't have to be "real." It just has to be consistent with its own reality.

Wrestling is fake.

There are a number of Bobby Heenan + Partners versions of that structure.

Well I have to disagree on that. Don't think I've seen a memorable Cesaro match this year, but I can name nine or ten fantastic Bryan matches. Many of them were tags, but he was usually the MVP. As an overall worker there just isn't anyone better right now - versatile, likable, exciting and charismatic. The guy has made Kane interesting, which is an absolute miracle. Cesaro is technically good but there is no reason to care about what he does, nothing to make the matches especially compelling or meaningful. They are just exhibitions. Bryan gets you emotionally invested, he makes you care. Think we might as well agree to disagree anyway, people were pimping Finlay as best in the world a few years back, and all I could see was a bunch of enjoyable, entertaining, competent but essentially inconsequential matches. I care about Cesaro matches more than I care about Bryan matches. I care about Bryan's character more than I care about Cesaro's but that has little to do with Cesaro. There have been plenty of good Cesaro matches this year, but not as many people watch Main Event and he's not been pushed at all after about Feb/March or so. Not only that but Cesaro has been paired with absolute dogshit for the bulk of the year. I'd argue it is VASTLY easier to work Mark Briscoe's gimmick, even with a partner as middling/weak as Kane v. guys like The Shield than it is to have lengthy good/great matches with guys like The fucking Miz, blackhole Randy Orton and Kofi Kingston. This isn't a knock on Bryan who I think has been great especially for the last two months or so. I just think Cesaro has clearly been better and working at far higher degree of difficulty (i.e. more time in the ring, shittier opponents, weaker storylines, et). I think level of difficulty is important! Other people don't. Discuss.

That's the deal with all of these matches right? Nothing that we haven't seen?

I watched a great Stasiak/Rose match. I didn't have time to see the last two Cesaro matches too. I'll get to them.

Ok that six man was pretty great. And they did they did sell it well in the moment at least. I'm pretty sure it was to set up Shield sweeping at the PPV but still, it was a great moment and I wasn't expecting them to present it as such. So I guess this time Johnny's right.

Rose vs Stasiak - 2/3 Falls - 11/10/79 Stasiak has a black robe, mutton chops and a mustache. He looks like something out of a bad 70s Kung Fu movie and it's great. Buddy stalls from the get go by carefully folding his shirt. We get a Heart Punch tease and Buddy takes powder. He sneaks in and starts working on the leg, with the base early on being this move that I'm not entirely sure I want to name, but it's kind of like the Indian Deathlock/Gagne Special but not quite. It's a nice move as Rose can really press in with his foot and make it look good and he also has to avoid the pin while he's holding it in. This stuff is fun as Stasiak tries to reverse but Buddy turns it into another variation, this one letting Buddy use the ropes which brings us the wrath of stunt granny. Stasiak turns it into a pin to escape but his legs are too hurt to do much else. Buddy hits a quick drop toehold and goes back to legwork. Stasiak kicks out but once again can't walk well. Buddy does a nice finesse move to try for more leg work but gets kicked off immediately. We get a cool little hope segment which is all Buddy begging off but Stan snaps on a headlock and gets punched in the leg. They end up in the ropes though leading to Stan getting one corner shot in and Buddy begging off again. Buddy's so great at making Stan fearsome with almost no effort at all. Buddy keeps going back to the leg, but misses a butt dive onto it. This is so focused. Buddy gets out of nowhere shots to the leg whenever Stan tries anything, including stopping a heart punch that way. Stasiak is selling huge. Buddy finally puts on a half crab and Stan has to tap for the first fall. Buddy gets a few cheap shots in on the way out. Second fall starts with Buddy going right to the leg. This is following from the match that Buddy won two falls and leading to a taped fist challenge (by Stasiak) on the upcoming Tuesday. They're doing a very good job working this stuff, including some great desperate kicks by Stan to get out of a leglock. It's also an a+ sell job by him anytime he gets up. I think he's punched Buddy maybe three times in the whole match but Buddy's bumping and selling and stooging is so good that it makes it seem like a force of nature is attackng him. Stasiak starts going after Budy's own leg with kicks and punches, and the punches especially look cool and different. It's really methodological and pissed off, really building to him locking in a toehold. I love that the transition was this slow steady thing and that they didn't just rush to it in a 'my turn' sort of way. Stan wrenches it until Buddy can nail Stan's leg to get out and then they start trading shots to each other's head and legs. Fun stuff leading to Buddy taking a powder to walk it off. He goes so far as to sit in an empty ringside seat. Stan is pissed off, breaking the count and letting Buddy spend some more time healing on the outside. Buddy begs off and they doa really good defensive sort of wrestling where both guys are afraid of the other getting the leg first. Stan charges in and takes over though. Stan wrenches the toehold again as the crowd chants along. I really do love Stasiak's leg punches. Buddy hits a great leg dive out of nowhere. The selling between these two is just great here. They're both dead and trying to desperately get each other's legs. Buddy misses a punch into the turnbuckle first and then goes for a kneedrop on the leg and misses. He sells HUGE and Stasiak starts to take over again, letting him get a beautiful heart punch for the second fall. Great fall. Third falls switches gears with Buddy starting over the back to set up the Robinson Backbreaker. Perfectly Logical part of Buddy's MO and his back-targeted offense is always varied and dogged and believable. Buddy keeps doing slams and throws. Stan's selling is super here, as he sells both the leg and the back whenever he gets a hope spot. Buddy goes for the Robisnon Backbreaker and Stan blocks it and then goes for the heart punch but Buddy moves and he just kills Sandy Barr with it! While Stan is concerned, Buddy rolls him up and Sandy counts a slow, slow pin. This finish was ten years before its time and this is probably my favorite singles Buddy match I've seen in this run so far.

I always kind of wished they did WM VII as Hogan vs Slaughter and Warrior vs Savage - Career, and then had the winners face off. It always bugs me for some reason that Slaughter never got to give Savage the title shot he wanted to so that being at least a possibility would be fun. Plus I bet they could probably have sold a bigger place out on the promise of Warrior vs Hogan II on top of everything else.

If they present it as a big deal then you can say that. If they don't, then you can't. Basically.

We should be looking how Taz did.

Just saw this again and I think Loss was dead on. We KNOW this match is good, but you sort of forget how good it is. It tells such a great story with Owen going cheap immediately and brazenly, with him capitalizing on the back and then the neck and then the leg at each absolutely logical and compelling opportunity while Bret fights back with these great comebacks that Owen cuts off so well. Bret sells on offense. Both guys stuff looks so good. Owen is a king at heeling it up and it's all completely believable while Bret just lays it into him when he gets the chance. They play up the fact that both guys knows each other so well and there are callbacks both within the match (the second attempt of a dragon screw for one) and to both the royal rumble with Bret's leg which was such a big part of the feud and to King of the Ring with the reversed victory roll which the move a desperate Bret had used to beat Bam Bam in the finals. Add in the backstory and the hot crowd and the lingering stakes for both wrestlers and it's just such a well-worked, well-put together match. It sort of amazes me how quickly Owen (especially with his repertoire of high flying offense) was able to work so deep and thorough and believable a heel so soon after he turned for the first time in his career, especially when he was on so big a stage.

Michaels FEELS longer to me since it's just the Jannetty 1-2 week gap breaking up his runs there, but yeah, ok. The numbers do not lie.

Was he even Longest reigning? There wasn't a hell of a lot of time between when he won it in april or may (or at least when it was televised) and Summerslam. Then he chased Tornado for the rest of the year til he got it back in December. He had the one big match with Bossman at Mania and then he loses it the following Summerslam. I loved Perfect as a kid and when I actually rewatched this stuff, it amazed me how little he actually had the belt. He just happened to have it during my key time as a kid viewer.

Was he? Top five? You've been going through the sets. Is he a top five guy for 1990? Is he better than Tenta? Than Bossman? Than Barbarian or Haku? Than Michaels/Jannetty? Or Tito? On what criteria?

I don't want this to come off as an attack, Parv, and it's not an all the time thing by any means, but a lot of times, it feels like you're arguing from a point of trying to justify your nostalgia.

I brought it up before but WCW did a great job of making Nick Patrick vs Chris Jericho seeming important since it was one of the first NWO losses. Presentation is everything.