Matt D

In 1989 Beefcake main evented Summerslam. On that card, the only faces at his level or higher (discounting Demolition) were Hogan, Duggan and Warrior. Summerslam 1999, the top faces were: Austin, Mankind and Rock. With Kane probably trailing behind.

To me one of the biggest issues is whether or not we have two major belts. It's pretty obvious to me that guys like Swagger/Christian/Henry/Jeff Hardy wouldn't have won the Championship if there was only one belt, but I think guys like CM Punk/Booker/JBL and yeah, probably Edge would be doubtful too. The Brand Split doesn't just mean there's a second belt for someone else to get. It also dilutes the brands so that a guy lower in the card is instantly boosted up.

WWF - 8/24/96 - Toronto - Shawn Michaels vs Goldust - Ladder Match http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x648yr_sh...ladder-ma_sport Better VQ but only 2/3 of the match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwPrrO-p32o I can see why this match is slept upon. The term "ladder match" creates a certain set of expectations, and those expectations were even more prevalent a few years ago. In this match the craziest bump has nothing to do with the ladder and there's only one real jump off of it. The first half of the match, the ladder doesn't even come into play. It's still really good though, and in some ways more structured and better than most ladder matches. Michaels' intensity in the beginning is great. I've seen very little WWF in 96, actually, so I'm not sure if he started most of his matches with that or not. He has this brutal looking chairshot early on when Goldust is going for the ladder the first time, which sort of explains why the ladder doesn't play much of a role for the first half of the match (as Dustin paid bigtime for trying to get it too early). Dustin's punches and general offense look great. Michaels bumps big for him, including one crazy no-hands catapult over the top rope. When the ladder comes into play it's mainly just a prop that Dustin uses to enhance his attack on Michaels' back and he finds smart ways to use it that aren't all that dangerous but look really good. The teases of the finishers are fun for the time. One transition where Goldust sidesteps a roll up in the corner is actually pretty neat. They do a good job at cutting off comebacks and timing everything well. I wish Shawn didn't do this floatover out of a move (twice Curtain call, once slam, once suplex) as a reversal. Three times sort of worked and led into the finish. Four times frustrated me. It's a fancam and cuts now and again towards the end but it's minimal and you can generally figure out what little bits you missed with ease (though at one point Shawn gets his foot stuck in the rope and I kind of wish what happened immediately thereafter had been retained). All in all, a really fun ladder match.

Basically, if you're going to push it, articulate it.

I really need to get back to 08 ECW. I started it and then got distracted by... I'm not even going to say what I got distracted by because it's so outside my usual oeuvre that it borders on the unbelievable. And I'm also not sure if I'm even capable of sticking with it. ECW 08 is much more in my wheelhouse.

Wahoo.

Hmmm, I thought he was down to JTTS level, he was in the WM2 battle royal but at the Big Event he jobbed out pretty quickly to Harley Race. I looked it up on Wikipedia, though, and it looks like he made it all the way to the finals of the King Of The Ring that year, so I guess he still had some name value at that point. There's a level above the JTTS. The wrestler who is over but in the midcard. He is not getting pushed. While the JTTS puts over a wrestler in a single match, the next level of wrestler puts the other over in a feud. Usually to set up a feud against a higher wrestler. Thinking of Chief Jay Strongbow in the 1970s, Jake Roberts in the 1980s, Santana in the early '90s. The JTTS match is rarely hyped. Usually it's filler. Sure, I was thinking Morales was a JTTS but on further research he would be more at lower level midcard. You see him getting the IC title shot and deep in your heart of hearts you know he isn't getting the belt but you still cheer for him. Sort of like when the British Bulldogs were getting the title shots against Demoliton as they were winding down their run. With the JTTS, the ending is just a foregone conclusion and that's it. Difference is that Bulldogs got at least a tiny TV angle against Demos.

That's pretty much what I'm talking about. Though the other one is on the LENGTH of the reign, which was set in stone from the beginning too. So now Bix can come in and debunk or confirm to the best of his knowledge.

You have to admit the idea that Graham would WANT to turn makes some sense, but he would have never gotten past the wall of... Wait, is(are) Vince Sr's promise(s) to Backlund true?

I think he was gone soon after the whole Earthquake/Bravo vs Hogan/Tugboat feud. I don't remember him being around much in 1991. He came back shortly in 1992 (during European tours I think) having one really good match with Bret Hart in Germany, and was not hired back. Odd he never tried his hand at WCW, but he probably didn't had any connection, as the Rougeaus and Martel worked in WWF at the time. I always thought his push was due to Patterson, no?

I find the early 90s Freebirds pretty fascinating, in how they were booked, how many chances they were given, the fact both Hayes and Garvin were pretty smart guys when it came to psychology and wrestling in general so they couldn't be COMPLETELY deluded, the music video/live performance disaster, the match vs the Dynamic Dudes where they were hugely cheered, Badstreet/Fantasia, Big Daddy Dink, Precious as the behind the scenes GM, the weirdness with the late Johnny B Badd match, JR's complete and utter lack of caring when Jimmy Garvin was announced as the mystery Freebird. It's a three year trainwreck basically.

I'm watching this period right now, and yes, the RnR's offense does look dated compared to the new blowjob tag teams of Dynamic Dudes, Zenk & Pillman and Southern Boys. But they are still an excellent working team despite the lack of new exciting offense. And the double dropkick was still over when they did it, so it shows that everything is perception. That said, I would have loved to get the Rockers thrown in this mix, opposing Doom and the MX. Looking back, and especially how over the MX were as faces, I would have really liked to see RnR turn heel at that point, annoyed with the fans cheering the Midnights.

I think at the time, Foley would have felt like a disappointment too. I was there live that night and anything less of a surprise/reveal than Jake would have been disappointing. http://www.oocities.org/joziejones/hpall62.html amusing thing google dragged up.

And it was better than, let's say Duggan's running clothesline out of the three point stance (because he used clotheslines throughout the match), but that was super over. Neither here nor there, but I felt bad for the RnRs when they came back in 90, because they were still using the Double Dropkick. Well and good except for the fact that as opposed to 1985, every babyface team had that as just a regular move. The Dynamic Dudes were doing it in the middle of a match. THAT hurt things.

Oh the move was a killer in 87-88. It was a match ender. When Hogan or Warrior kicked out of it in 90, that was the first time I remember that happening.

If the move is protected and no one else is using it, it's fine. Big Show's deadliest move right now is a punch, and it's protected like no one's business. Hell Cena's finish is an overglorified fireman's carry takeover. Henry's is just picking up the guy and falling on them, basically. It's all in the presentation. In WWE neither DDTs or Pile Drivers matter in the least.

That match is the worst. I always forget how bad it is and have to watch it now and again to remind myself. I actually like the finish a lot in theory, but it's just a terrible terrible 3 minute match. I guess the way the match is laid out isn't terrible, to be honest (Bravo attacks at the bell while Kerry is getting his coat off, gets a lot of offense in early, Kerry comes back. Dino blocks the claw, hits the side slam. Kerry kicks out. Dino goes up to the second rope in desperation. Kerry catches him in the claw, hits the discus punch, match), but the execution sure as hell is the drizzling shits. Wretched punches. Weak chops. Both the worst atomic drop AND inverted atomic drops. Lame head slams into the apron. The blocked claw sequence looking miserable. Kerry backing up six steps for no reason so he can get clotheslined over the top. The worst. And yes, not only did Bravo lose that match but Kerry also kicked out of his finish.

I listen to anyone's BS and I still tend to avoid Mike Graham.

Demolition was awesome at.... Oh, wait you mean TODAY. Nevermind.

My wildly unreliable source is the Matt Borne shoot but he basically blames the downfall of Portland on Buddy leaving and giving Rip Oliver the book. Is there anyone who would know more concrete dates? Does Dutch Savage answer questions still?

Tito over DiBiase in 88-89 would have been a big deal, not so much in 1992. Ted had been doing the same thing for going on five years at that point. He was long removed from doing anything in the main event, and long removed from any high profile angles. He was the first person turfed from the Royal Rumble that year. Tito over Ted breaks Tito's long running WrestleMania losing streak, but Ted didn't exactly the most stellar 'Mania streak himself. He won two matches at 4 and lost in the finals, DCOR with Brutus Beefcake at 5, beat Jake by COR at 6, and wasn't even on 7. Waiiiit a sec. He wrestled Virgil at 7

I was a big Tito fan as a kid, so when Razor came in I thought he was saying "Tito" and wanted to know why he wanted to get him so badly.

BUT it has this AMAZING moment where Sherri totally changes her tune as Tito recovers and comes towards her and she goes ... "I'VE ALWAYS LIKED YOU!" or something like that.

Re: Tito in 91-92. Becoming El Matador had one really important end result to Tito in ring. Before 88 or so, Tito used the figure four as a viable finisher and the Flying Forearm could work as a transition/comeback move or a set up move. After that, when he wasn't using the figure four, so many of the matches where he would lose would let him keep his heat somewhat by hitting the forearm, but having the heel too close to the ropes in one way or another. As a 10 year old, I knew the second that would happen, that he would lose the match. After becoming El Matador, however, he gained el paso de la muerte.(do I have that right?) and past looking cool, it meant that his match structures became just a little more unpredictable. Trust me, as a kid it really made his matches more exciting.

Al Issacs' Scoops?