20 Years Ago - WON 11/28/88

[Jingus]

Flair vs. Andre

Surely that match happened somewhere, even if it never made tape.

[Matt D]

It just seemed weird to me after hearing some of the Flair shoot stuff over the last few years where it became blatantly obvious that Flair's views on putting a match together just weren't... how do I put this? They were very distinct and did not fall in line with with a lot of people on the boards I frequent feel and/or may have attributed to Flair. This sort of seems a case of that.

[jdw]

It may just be stiffness + chops = Flair love and he happened to be Japanese.

Yeah, Flair loved working with Wahoo McDaniel and Ronnie Garvin for that reason. Also, Flair against the evil foreigner had worked before.

 

Bix may be coming from the Dave side rather than what Flair was thinking. It is interesting because Dave was an even bigger fan of Bumper/Seller than he was of Stiff: I think that's what Dave popped for more in Ric, along with the charisma than just the chops. But some of that is what he liked in the US. In Japan, he did seem to like the stiff/realism element.

 

On the Flair side... I just have a tough time figuring out why in 1988 Tenryu would jump out in Ric's mind, with no outside influence, as the Japanese guy he's want to work a PPV match with. Or that he'd even care about getting over the Japanese style in the US. It... doesn't fully add up.

 

 

=======================

 

I always wondered what it would've been like if Flair was able to work NJ instead of AJ like Dusty did because looking back to me it seems like Flair would've been a better fit for NJ than AJ being that it was more "flashy."

I'm not sure anyone in NJ would have matched up with Flair better than Jumbo did in the early '80s. Jumbo did lots of theatrical stuff and was very experienced working the long title matches that Flair loved to do as touring champ. I wonder if the "flashier NJ" thing has been overblown, especially if we're talking heavyweights. I guess I buy that Choshu ushered in a faster, more direct style, but he impacted both promotions. I don't think the shootstyle influence would have been a positive for Flair. I'm not picking on your point Kris; I've just thought a lot about the differences between AJ and NJ over the last year. And if anything, All Japan seemed the more American of the two in the '80s.

 

Flair vs. Fujinami, Flair vs. Inoki, Flair vs. Kimura, Flair vs. Fujiwara, Flair vs. Hogan, Flair vs. Andre, Flair vs. Murdoch, Flair working with the Jrs, it could've worked really well. Flair vs. Maeda or Takada would've definitely been interesting as well.

I would be interested in drawing the comps on other opponents of Inoki and Fujinami who would have been somewhat similar to 1981-88 Flair. Adonis? Theatrical bumper and seller, bit more spectacular on offense. Murdoch was a stooger and seller lik Flair, bumped but wasn't a bump-o-rama guy like Flair. You can kind of see Flair fitting half way between the two.

 

What's a little interesting is that I don't know if either of those two exactly worked a classic singles with Inoki and Fujinami. Anyting that would be up there with the 7/78 Inoki-Backlund?

 

I don't think the juniors stuff would come off well. Flair never really seemed to gell with that cutting edge style... just came across really awkward in working spots with them. Even in the 90s after having had higher end spots done to him for a number of years, he really didn't feel comfy in it. In addition, if we're thinking of Flair in a "US Touring Champ" mode over in New Japan (similar to the role he played in All Japan and that Backlund played in New Japan), it's unlikely he'd be paired up with the juniors. I don't think there was a Bob-Fujinami singles match until Fujinami moved out of the juniors. Some tags, but I don't think many. There never was a Bob-Tiger Mask. I just wouldn't expect much of it.

 

Against the gaijin... Bob did have several matches, some of them rather good (vs Dusty and vs Hansen). They seemed to keep Bob away from Andre in a singles, even with Andre the heel. That is likely what would have happened with Flair. Still, if it did happen... Heel Flair vs Heel Andre... I'm just not seeing a good match. That's not because Andre didn't have watchabl/good matches in New Japan. Just don't see the two meshing together very well given their heel roles. Hansen worked because it was these two monster kicking the shit out of each other. Some of the Andre-Fujinami and Andre-Inoki matches worked because of that small native babyface against the gaijin monster dynamic... when Ric played "small vs big" it was stooging his ass off for the big muscle head. Don't know how that works with heel Andre.

 

It's challenging to figure out how an NWA Champ would fit into New Japan from 1981-88.

 

==========================

 

We might be able to point to Savage as an exception, since one of the things that stands out when watching him against Hogan in 1986 was that Randy was quite small.

I never thought of Savage as small. He's, what, at least 6'2"? He's about the same size as Stone Cold, albeit a tiny bit thinner around the midsection. In any other territory in the world, Savage would never have looked small. That's more of an indictment of how ridiculously size-obsessed Vince was back in the 80s than anything else.

Totally agree: it very much was a WWF thing where Randy was "small" relative to a tall 300+ babyface champ. I'm not sure Randy is 6-2 unless he wore lifts (which is possible). He looked a fair amount shorter than Hogan in their 1986 series.

 

The thing with Savage is kind of what I pointed out: he worked largely than life. Even moreso than Flair, who looked even smaller opposite Hogan and frankly never very credible. Savage just had something in how he worked, how he carried himself, a certain intensity. I don't think it's all a function of his sticking out in a cartoony WWF.

 

John

[jdw]

It just seemed weird to me after hearing some of the Flair shoot stuff over the last few years where it became blatantly obvious that Flair's views on putting a match together just weren't... how do I put this? They were very distinct and did not fall in line with with a lot of people on the boards I frequent feel and/or may have attributed to Flair. This sort of seems a case of that.

What did Flair say about putting a match together?

 

I've for several years talking about Flair's working style as "I've Got Stuff To Do". That's the primary focus: keep moving things along, he's got spots and stuff to do, it doesn't make a great deal of sense beyond that other than making the face look good and keeping the crowd interested. There's a slight notion of leaving the fans pissed off at the end and wanting them to come back to see him get his ass kicked the next time, but over the course of years the fans had seen that so often that it really didn't have as big of a point in drawing fans back as Flair would think.

 

From the small bits I've seen quoted, it doesn't sound like Flair was that far off from what I was saying and which kind of annoyed people when I first tossed it out. I kind of always thought that people didn't get that my point wasn't an complete negative: Flair worked a style that engaged fans and entertained them. There really wasn't any great or deep storytelling going on, and instead Flair was extremely effective at churning out the equiv of "pulp". Perhaps what annoyed people was pointing out that Hogan was the same in the 80s: extremely effective in putting on "matches" that played to what the fans wanted to see and kept them engaged. Hardcore fans just like Flair's stuff more than Hogan's, though it didn't mean it was anymore effective work.

 

There's always been less "great storytelling" in wrestling work that we tend to yammer about.

 

John

[Jingus]

What did Flair say about putting a match together?

There was one bit which seemed relevant to the Stuff To Do viewpoint. Flair admitted that he intentionally made a lot of his matches so repetitive. His reasoning was that, back when he was a kid, he'd often be disappointed when he went to go see the matches live and his favorite wrestlers for some reason didn't do the signature spots that he marked out for. He decided that he'd do all his signature spots in every match, so that people wouldn't go home feeling like Flair had shortchanged them on anything they'd come to expect from him.

[Matt D]

Basically, you guys summed it up.

 

Though, with Hogan, I always feel that you shouldn't look at his matches relative to the rest of the card, but instead look at them like badminton to tennis, something close to pro wrestling but that is really its own animal. Compare (face) Hogan matches to one another, basically. In that regard, the heavily produced matches that he had between 89 and 91 are really interesting to watch because they all have slightly different (and really, building) narratives, probably because they were so heavily worked out by Patterson or whoever, which is really just an educated guess of mine having watched them and having watched Hogan house show matches from the period. They keep building until they come to a head with the This Tuesday in Texas Taker match (which is all about Hogan avoiding the choke). I'm not saying they have deep storytelling but they do have distinct storytelling. You just have to look at the Hulk Up as something the heel knows is coming, like it's a video game where if one player's character takes enough damage he can use a super-combo or something. That's probably not the most convincing way to put it.

 

I have a lot harder time being engaged by Flair matches than I did before hearing John's theories a year or two ago (and then having them basically confirmed by Flair himself). Things just bug me that I barely even noticed before, because they're on my mind. Granted, I also look for storytelling over "excitement" a lot more than I did when I was younger and a Crusierweight/Northeast Indy nut, which means I might just be making things up in my own head a whole lot.

 

At some point I want to rewatch a lot of Bret Hart matches all at once, because from what I've seen in watching a lot of 88-92 or so, he does a lot of his big spots, but he really changes up HOW and WHEN he uses them. Or more accurately, Flair uses his big spots. Bret uses his big moves, but he uses them to create different spots and to achieve different narrative ends. I could be way off on that, though, or he could do it a lot less as the decade goes on. I'm not sure. It's just something I've noticed a bit in what I HAVE watched.

[jdw]

I recall the "I Don't Want To Have The Kids Miss Me Doing A Spot" thing from Flair. What's kind of strange about it is that Ric was going 20 minutes and had plenty of time to mix in all that stuff. I don't think it's really the issue that Flair is now making it up to be. Honestly, if we try to put together a list of the Flair Spots that Ric might possibly think a fan couldn't live without, it really wouldn't add up to a lot of time. I think we all know this because at a certain point in his career Ric had pitched most everything else overboard and reduced himself to:

 

* Flair Signature Spots

* Bumping & Selling His Ass Off For The Face

* Heel Shortcuts

 

Other than perhaps in Nitro Matches and some other time impacted matches (say the Clashes and occassonal a PPV), it's not like Ric didn't have time to get to his signature spots.

 

It's one of those things that people take for the Gospel without taking ten second to have this bubble up in there head:

 

"So 20 minutes wasn't enough time to get to those signature spots and do other stuff? Did he really need to take that 5th back body drop and 8th hiptoss from Sting?"

 

I'm not saying it's something that doesn't pass the laugh test... but, yeah... I do have to keep a straight face when I hear it to appear like I'm busting on Ric again. :/

 

John

[Loss]

What Flair also said was that he did things that he knew didn't make sense, but he felt his job was to get a reaction, not just to make sense. That seems to be his interpretation of ring psychology too.

 

Still, I agree with John. No way Flair would have blended in in New Japan. I always thought of All Japan as a really high-end American style, had the U.S. style ever really evolved past what it was in the 70s (and it has, but more in a regressive than progressive way for the most part).

 

All Japan was a classic pro wrestling promotion. New Japan did much more to blur the line between work and shoot and tried to get their wrestlers over as "fighters", which was great, but someone who worked a typical 70s American style who wasn't going to change with the times was going to get lost in all of that. Whereas someone like Stan Hansen didn't really change his style so much to work with Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi as he did increase his aggression, I can't think of too many American heavyweights that worked New Japan regularly that got over without having to adapt.

 

There are exceptions. Vader worked in that environment, but Vader is a different type of wrestler than Flair, and has a style that's so great that it's worked in pretty much every environment. (Sometimes people criticize him for that, but I think it's a huge positive.) The Steiners got over in New Japan, but they were also a highspot tag team with some ridiculous suplexes and the top rope DDT and other moves that no one was doing at the time.

 

Flair vs Fujinami might have worked, but that would have been because of Fujinami. Fujinami is great at the classic 70s-style match and would have been able to adapt. Flair v Hogan, Andre, and Murdoch would have worked because their style is a good mesh with Flair. Flair going against Inoki, Fujiwara, or Maeda I have trouble seeing as anything but a trainwreck, or at the very least, a styles clash.

 

Steamboat was more adaptable than Flair, and while he got over to a degree in All Japan in the early 80s, his matches with Misawa and Muta in late '89-early '90s showed a Steamboat out of his element. So I think with Flair, that would have been magnified.

 

Flair vs juniors, it's hard to say. Flair vs Liger would likely be really good, but again that's Liger knowing how to work the American style. I can't see Flair having good matches with Koshinaka or Rocco. Flair vs Takada scares me.

[Death From Above]

Flair going against Inoki, Fujiwara, or Maeda I have trouble seeing as anything but a trainwreck, or at the very least, a styles clash.

I once saw a large part of a Maeda vs. Hogan match in the 1980's that was part of some compilation of totally random mish-mash New Japan that I got... but it went to commercial and I never saw the finish as it wasn't on the comp! Frustrating. That was certainly a bizarre style clash but honestly given it was the bizarro match of Maeda vs. Hogan I thought what I saw of it was pretty good. If Maeda could work a match with Hogan I don't see why not Flair. Agreed it would have been strange but I could see it working at the time, at least as a one off. I don't know if I'd want to see them have a best of 7 or anything.

 

I can't see Flair having good matches with Koshinaka or Rocco.

This reminds me given the current run of the conversation that Tenryu and Koshinaka had an absurdly great little match on NJPW tv in the early 1990's that is pretty much the match Flair should work with smaller guys but never really did. I tried to find it on YouTube but no luck, it's possible it's in there but I can't read the Japanese only titles. If anyone else does stumble across it, watch it, it's a total blast. One of those little lost gems in all the good matches that piled up in the first half of the 1990's.

[jdw]

Tenryu-Kosh was from 12/92. Tenryu's first singles match in NJPW, basically putting him over leading into the Dome match with Choshu.

[KrisZ]

Another thing was I don't think Flair was too keen on working Japan in general since out of the NWA champs of his era besides Dusty (Dory, Race, Brisco, & Terry) he worked Japan the least now maybe that was due to Crockett wanting to keep him close to home but Flair was nowhere near the level of star in Japan as those four or the perennial AWA champ Bock.

[Ditch]

I would be interested in drawing the comps on other opponents of Inoki and Fujinami who would have been somewhat similar to 1981-88 Flair. Adonis? Theatrical bumper and seller, bit more spectacular on offense. Murdoch was a stooger and seller lik Flair, bumped but wasn't a bump-o-rama guy like Flair. You can kind of see Flair fitting half way between the two.

 

What's a little interesting is that I don't know if either of those two exactly worked a classic singles with Inoki and Fujinami. Anyting that would be up there with the 7/78 Inoki-Backlund?

Inoki vs Murdoch 6/19/86 is all kinds of great.

 

Also, I'm in big-time agreement regarding where Flair would have fit best in Japan, with the exception that I'd rather have seen Flair vs Fujinami in 1987 instead of Waijima...

[Al]

The best thing about the show was the ring announcing by Howard Finkel. I've never really paid close attention to that before because I usually concentrate on the matches, but decided to concentrate on everything but the matches here. The guy belongs in the ring announcers hall of fame with Jimmy Lennon, and even Lennon wasn't so meticulously perfect."

With the WON HOF discussion ongoing I have to wonder. If Lennon made the Hall, why hasn't Finkel?

[Al]

Flair vs. Andre

Surely that match happened somewhere, even if it never made tape.

 

It was a PWI Runner Up for Match of the Year in 1976.

[kjh]

The best thing about the show was the ring announcing by Howard Finkel. I've never really paid close attention to that before because I usually concentrate on the matches, but decided to concentrate on everything but the matches here. The guy belongs in the ring announcers hall of fame with Jimmy Lennon, and even Lennon wasn't so meticulously perfect."

With the WON HOF discussion ongoing I have to wonder. If Lennon made the Hall, why hasn't Finkel?

Yeah, at the very least he should have been put on the ballot already.

[sek69]

I would guess Lennon is in because he was a California guy and Dave probably grew up watching him on TV. I wonder if anyone's ever asked Dave about Howard, I recall back when Fink was named for the WWE HOF, Dave was adamant about how despite WWE largely was doing it for laughs he deserved to be in since he was one of the best announcers ever.

[sek69]

Also, I would think that with practically every wrestler who should be in (in terms of people who are currently eligible) already being in, perhaps the next year or two should focus on non wrestlers until we get to the point where more guys are added to the ballot that aren't borderline.

[goodhelmet]

I just wanted to say that "Your goose is cooked" is not that obscure or backwoods of a reference.

[ohtani's jacket]

I started watching puro right around the same time as jdw and I thought watching Kawada early on that he would've been much better in New Japan with his size and style but everything worked out for him in the end.

It's my understanding that he passed the New Japan entrance test but opted to go to Ashikaga-kodai High School because it was a famous wrestling school. He was also invited to join SWS, which would've changed his career significantly.

[jdw]

Pretty much everyone was invited to join SWS the way they were throwing money around.

 

Yeah... it would have killed his career. He probably wouldn't have porked out like Fuyuki, but it would have been a dead end. He probably would have stuck with Tenryu in the SWS split and moved onto WAR. Played some role in the NJ-WAR feud, but it's not likely that Choshu would have booked his NJ Peers (Mutoh, Chono, Hash, Sasaki, Kosh, Hase) to put him over as they were booked (with the exception of Mutoh and Sasaki at the time) to help put over Tenryu. From there, as WAR faded... it probably would have been pretty ugly.

 

John

[Ditch]

So he would have been Best Possible Araya?

 

Meanwhile I'd love to know how much Megane Super ended up blowing on wrestling, and how it compares to Panda Energy. Nothing will ever top Time Warner of course.

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't think they lost huge amounts of money. SWS mostly broke up due to in fighting. Megane scaled back their sponsorship, but they did help bankroll both WAR and NOW.

[Ditch]

There was also PWFG.

[jdw]

Wasn't remotely close to Panada. Wasn't as long, and Megane didn't fund WAR and SWS for all that long at the high of a level. Salaries in Japan for most natives also is smaller than what TNA is tossing around. Other expenses aren't off the charts other than flying over gaijin talent and putting them up. I doubt those expenses are close to what TNA runs up even in a year of the different perks that different wrestlers have.

 

On the other hand, *at the time* and relative to NJ and AJ, it was a crapload of money. The other two were profitable. SWS was a money sink, and would have been dead within a year without Megane funding.

 

John

[flyonthewall2983]

Flair vs. Andre

Surely that match happened somewhere, even if it never made tape.

 

It was a PWI Runner Up for Match of the Year in 1976.

 

Here are pictures of it.

.