Resident Evil Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Words can't describe how much I love the original 1969 Tiger Mask anime. Any wrestling fan owes it to themselves to watch it. I can't say enough great things about it. Some of the best fights (Be forewarned, they make FMW or BJW look tame) I have ever seen put to movie and/or TV. Ahead of its time for the wrestling. Way ahead. They manage to just mix fantasy and real life reality into this animated blend which works so well and helps to elevate the product .... which reminds me the NWA, Giant Baba, Inoki and others are all freaking in this. Any sort of fantasy wrestling personality that you would expect or even dream of and than even more is in here. By far, the best wrestling show I have ever seen though I haven't seen them all.Are there any fansubs around or just straight Japanese? It is straight Japanese the last time I checked. I only ever saw a sub of part of an episode of the second show in the 80s. However, the original show as well as other Japanese animation was televised in Italy back in the day and from what I have seen it is very close to the Japanese show so if one understands Italian they could watch it that way. It was a hit in Italy and they have DVDs of it over there. This is the best Tiger Mask site I ever saw as it gives summaries of every episode and all the charactors in it. Lots of cool pictures too. http://www4.airnet.ne.jp/pancra/tigre/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 If you guys like the tiger mask anime, you need to see Kinnikuman asap. It is my view of what wrestling should be. It's the wackiest and greatest stuff ever. You have rip-offs of every famous wrestler from the 1980's, wrestlers who eat their opponents like noodles to settle grudges(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91HCNNaSs3I) and wrestling urinals: (What are you doing?? Eww!!) I also want to point out to this day that Tiger Mask is super over in Japan and probably only second to Inoki. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 If you guys like the tiger mask anime, you need to see Kinnikuman asap. It is my view of what wrestling should be. It's the wackiest and greatest stuff ever. You have rip-offs of every famous wrestler from the 1980's, wrestlers who eat their opponents like noodles to settle grudges(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91HCNNaSs3I) and wrestling urinals: (What are you doing?? Eww!!) I also want to point out to this day that Tiger Mask is super over in Japan and probably only second to Inoki. I saw some highlights of this over at DVDVR a little while ago. It looks like another insane and creative Japanese production. I'm curious on how much of it is humour and how much is drama?= And thanks for confirming how super over Tiger Mask is in Japan. Like I mentioned earlier, he is regarded as one of the biggest names in puroresu history. I once asked a guy from Italy about Tiger Mask's anime anpopularity in Italy because in my research I had noticed they had DVDs of it. Well as luck would have it, I ran into more talk about its popularity today. It truely was insanely popular over there. Voted most popular cartoon in the history of Italy and was responsible for NJPW getting airtime over there which led to NJPW touring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Well the original series is a good mix of both humour and drama but Ultimate Muscle(Which aired in english in the US) is more drama. Either way, you want all of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 I also want to point out to this day that Tiger Mask is super over in Japan and probably only second to Inoki. And thanks for confirming how super over Tiger Mask is in Japan. Confirmation, my ass. Yeah, I was only a main event box office draw for, like, 25 years or something. But there were those two years where Sayama drew RATINGS~! BAY-BEE~! so clearly he's the bigger all-time star. Hey, Tatsumi, weren't we the guys who actually drew the house on 4/21/83? And, like, a bajillion other houses? Yeah, but he was a ratings draw and moved merch for two years. He was like the best possible New Age Outlaws, but without Road Dogg's crisp execution. Hey, where does the line start? How many dome shows did this guy headline? How many times did he sell out the Budokan? At least he's the second biggest star ever to work the Tiger Mask gimmick. Hell, I have a longer run as a bigger star AND a longer run of tricking Meltzer into thinking I'm not a useless piece of shit in the ring! Hey, guys! What's going on over here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 To say nothing of... -Tiger Masks 2, 3 and 4 were never significant draws, and in fact both Misawa and Kanemoto were far more important shortly after unmasking. So, the Tiger Mask gimmick is famous, but not particularly 'over' -If we're only talking about Sayama, well, to say he's the 2nd most over Japanese wrestler would be silly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Amazing. What the fuck? I drew 30.000 people to Kawasaki Stadium without having any TV. Who the hell is that cartoon guy ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 I also want to point out to this day that Tiger Mask is super over in Japan and probably only second to Inoki. And thanks for confirming how super over Tiger Mask is in Japan. Confirmation, my ass. Yeah, I was only a main event box office draw for, like, 25 years or something. But there were those two years where Sayama drew RATINGS~! BAY-BEE~! so clearly he's the bigger all-time star. Hey, Tatsumi, weren't we the guys who actually drew the house on 4/21/83? And, like, a bajillion other houses? Yeah, but he was a ratings draw and moved merch for two years. He was like the best possible New Age Outlaws, but without Road Dogg's crisp execution. Hey, where does the line start? How many dome shows did this guy headline? How many times did he sell out the Budokan? At least he's the second biggest star ever to work the Tiger Mask gimmick. Hell, I have a longer run as a bigger star AND a longer run of tricking Meltzer into thinking I'm not a useless piece of shit in the ring! Hey, guys! What's going on over here? First of all, what I mean by over is like known to the general public or famous. Have you ever been to Japan SLL? If not, then how do you know? If I had to have a top 5 of wrestlers that the general public in Japan would know it would be: Hokuto/Sasaki, Inoki, Tiger with maybe the Crush Girls(Though no one under 35 would know them) and maybe Rikidozan for older people/wrestling fans. Believe me that Misawa, Mutoh, Choshu, Fujinami and especially Hashimoto are not on that list. Baba would be known by older people/wrestling fans but I'm not sure how known he'd be with younger people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 I know that all those DVD guys think I suck, but I sold out Budokan before anyone in my or the prior generation, drew 40K in my own promotion to a baseball stadium, sold out the Tokyo Dome three times, and even drew getting my ass kicked by Gracie. Sayama can suck my balls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 The person that the public knows after Inoki is STAN HANSEN so this is all moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 I know that all those DVD guys think I suck, but I sold out Budokan before anyone in my or the prior generation, drew 40K in my own promotion to a baseball stadium, sold out the Tokyo Dome three times, and even drew getting my ass kicked by Gracie. Sayama can suck my balls. I knew that was coming too. Eh eh ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 would be known by older people/wrestling fans but I'm not sure how known he'd be with younger people. You realize people over 35 (since that's your cutoff number, not mine) make up a clear and overwhelming majority of the population, right? Rikidozan Tiger Mask has a cartoon popular among some kids and internet dorks. The other guy was the biggest television draw in the history of a nation and is a pop culture figure important enough that he appears in some history textbooks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Here's one of the issues with Tiger Mask Sayama: It was 4/81 through 8/83 that he was on TV. His time in UWF 1.0 doesn't amount to anything: it wasn't on TV. His martial arts stuff after that doesn't amount to anything. NJPW Pro Wrestling was massive at the time. But... it was *at the time*. The most watched TV show in US history prior to this past Super Bowl aired in that period: the finale of MASH in Feb 1983. 106M to 125M people watched it. Exactly how over is MASH now? It means very little to those who were born after it, or became aware after it. On the other hand, Baba was on TV all the way back to the 60s. People who were kids in the 60s by stopped watching by the time of Tigeryama knew who Baba was. He also was still wrestling in 1998, and his death in 1999 was a national event of major news. Tigeryama means something to a generation of fans, and was known by those people who watched New Japan for Inoki or Fujinami or Choshu. Baba was known by *generations* of people in the country. On can try to debate the others, but putting Sayama over Baba would be a mistake. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 People know Tiger Mask's name big time over in Japan. I have been told this by more than a couple of people who would know. But Wow, justabsolutely wow. So much anti Tiger bias pouring into some of these statements with DFA's post taking the cake. I was really enjoying talking about the animated show too. This is as about as fascinating as the time when the board had a hard time coming to grips with and not being able to accept the point of sex is to reproduce one's seed into another human being. Or the reactions to JDW's porn watching habits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 De-tour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 It's a good thread, and certainly a good place for future posts on the "watching old footage" topic when it comes up. Please resist the urgue to lock it. If that detour is/becomes an issue, just split them off into a Boneyard thread where it can go to die. Too much else in here that's good. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 It's a good thread, and certainly a good place for future posts on the "watching old footage" topic when it comes up. Please resist the urgue to lock it. If that detour is/becomes an issue, just split them off into a Boneyard thread where it can go to die. Too much else in here that's good. John Agreed. I have no intentions of closing it. I will just respectfully ask that we keep the topic on Dave, Sayama, anime and funny captions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Dave First of all, what I mean by over is like known to the general public or famous. Have you ever been to Japan SLL? If not, then how do you know? Hey, remember when Dave used pretty much this exact talking point when pushing Masakatsu Funaki for the HOF? Oh, sure, every drop of available evidence suggested he wasn't nearly as big of a deal as Dave made him out to be, but how would YOU know? YOU WEREN'T THERE, MAN! Sayama If I had to have a top 5 of wrestlers that the general public in Japan would know it would be: Hokuto/Sasaki, Inoki, Tiger with maybe the Crush Girls(Though no one under 35 would know them) and maybe Rikidozan for older people/wrestling fans. Believe me that Misawa, Mutoh, Choshu, Fujinami and especially Hashimoto are not on that list. Baba would be known by older people/wrestling fans but I'm not sure how known he'd be with younger people. I assume from the "older people" lines that you are referring to current mainstream popularity? OK, you may be right about that for all I know. A couple of things, though.... 1. Considering what a sad state of affairs the puro scene is in these days I don't know that being the second most famous wrestler in Japan presently means anything. It feels like kind of a backhanded compliment. 2. Scratch that, I know it doesn't mean anything, because if it did, Sayama wouldn't be main eventing his vanity fed in front of high school gymnasiums. I mean, I like Real Japan, and I like old, fat Sayama way more than young, trim, can't-hit-that-flipping-armdrag-to-save-his-life-but-will-attempt-it-in-every-match-he's-ever-in-anyway Sayama. But you watch him on those shows, and you tell me he's the second most famous wrestler in Japan today, it's gonna say way less about how great Sayama is and way more about how deep of a pit puro is in right now. 3. I don't know for sure, but there's a pretty good chance that a list of the top five wrestlers best known by the American general public would include David Arquette. If not top five, he's definitely top ten. anime 4. So when FLIK said... Did Gran Hamada have his own mother fucking cartoon? NO ...I assumed (and still do) that he was being facetious. Satoru Sayama didn't have his own cartoon. Naoto Date had his own real life professional wrestler. And as it relates to the subject at hand, I was tooling around Wikipedia the other day, and ended up finding this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Mask_donation_phenomenon The Tiger Mask donation phenomenon is a series of donations of randoseru (school backpacks) and other items to orphanages around Japan. The first donation happened when someone left ten 30,000 yen backpacks at a child guidance center in Gunma Prefecture on Christmas Day in 2010. A note attached to the bags was signed "Naoto Date", the real name of the titular character of Tiger Mask, a popular 1960s and 70s manga about a wrestler who fought for orphans, being raised in an orphanage himself. Since the initial donation, copycat donations have appeared around Japan at various facilities for children, ranging from more backpacks to toys, food, and monetary gifts. Now, unless "Naoto Date" is actually gross misspelling on the editor's part, I can't help but notice that the name "Satoru Sayama" appears precisely zero times in the article, and that no mention is made at all of "Tiger Mask" having ever been a real life professional wrestler. I've always been of the understanding that Tiger Mask - unlike conceptual successors Jushin Liger and Big Van Vader - never outgrew the fame of the anime his character sprang from. I've also understood that was less about Sayama not being a hit and more about the anime being a much bigger deal than the ones Liger and Vader's gimmicks came from. But it does lead me to wonder...when we talk about the enduring fame of Tiger Mask, how much are we really talking about Satoru Sayama, and the things he did under the mask, and how much are we talking about a guy who exists only in ink and paper? and funny captions So...which version of the UWF was able to run the Tokyo Dome again? Yeah, more people know he is, but the people who know who I am actually show up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Snarkiest post of the Year? (Good one BTW). If TM could have hit that move, what would it be called. No, not a miracle, the move itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Vader had a cartoon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 The Vader gimmick was originally from a manga character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 I don't have the heart for this right now, but Tiger Mask is more famous than some of these other wrestlers being mentioned. Whether it's because of Sayama or the Tiger Mask character is up for debate, but Tiger Mask is far more iconic than Hashimoto et al. ever were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 I guess it depends on what we're talking about. The general public is more aware of something called "Tiger Mask" than [insert legendary wrestler]. But in the context of pro wrestlers being 'over', which is what people are responding to here? That seems doubtful. I doubt huge numbers of the general public are in love with the Tiger Mask *wrestling gimmick*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Many fans have told me that their favourite wrestler is Tiger Mask. As far as the general public goes, the mask makes him instantly recognisable. I wouldn't say that the gimmick is beloved as such, but then I wouldn't say any Japanese wrestler is beloved at present. I haven't really been following this debate, but there's two things you can't underestimate when it comes to Tiger Mask and that's how popular Sayama is with Japanese wrestling fans and how big it was at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Many fans have told me that their favourite wrestler is Tiger Mask. As far as the general public goes, the mask makes him instantly recognisable. I wouldn't say that the gimmick is beloved as such, but then I wouldn't say any Japanese wrestler is beloved at present. I haven't really been following this debate, but there's two things you can't underestimate when it comes to Tiger Mask and that's how popular Sayama is with Japanese wrestling fans and how big it was at the time. Thank you OJ. Everybody here is underestimating him just like his matches. As far as the importance of the animated character vs Sayama himself into what helped to make Sayama with the mask so over -- They both did. Sayama worked with the TM charactor better than anyone in puroresu history (and I'm not insulting any of the other Tiger Masks, they just had such a high mountain to climb) in order to make it work. Through not only his wrestling but his body language and aura as well. They blended together like peanut butter and jam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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