Rank the territories in the 80s

[JerryvonKramer]

So one thing I've been looking to do of late was get more into the territories-era stuff.

 

I'm looking for you to rank AWA, Georgia, Memphis, World Class, Florida and Mid-South, and give a few reasons for why you'd rank them that way.

 

Also, would you rank any of them above the WWF or Crockett taking the whole of the 80s into account?

[JerryvonKramer]

So this topic was completely no sold. I suppose what I was looking for more than anything was for people to DESCRIBE each of the different territories.

 

At this point my only real exposure has been to Mid-South since getting the set. I have some vague impressions of what some of the others are like but would like to see what people say.

 

AWA seems to be more of a gimmicky-type promotion. More for talkers and big characters like Heenan, Ventura, Okerlund and so on. It seems to me to be the "most like WWF" of the territories, if that makes any sense. Also, a lot of older workers for some reason.

 

CWA - I have no real idea beyond the general impression that Lawler is in every single match.

 

World Class - So WWE seem to like showing lots of clips from Texas on the Legends of Wrestling show. I always just think of that big stadium and Freebirds vs. The Von Erichs. I don't have a strong impression of what the product was LIKE beyond that.

 

St. Louis - no idea

 

Portland - no idea

 

Florida - very little impression apart from knowing it was dominated by Dusty Rhodes and that Solie was the main commentator. And that Eddie Graham was a tragic figure.

 

Georgia - this is the one I'm most confused about because to my mind it's just the precursor to the classic JCP "World Championship Wrestling" show we see in all the Horsemen promos. I also know Solie was the main commentator here too. I've never been clear on the difference between this and JCP in the early 80s.

 

Obviously, in time my intention is to watch as much footage as I can and to get all of the different sets, but since that's pretty much going to be a 10-year project, any help in helping me get a picture of the style and type of promotions each of these were would be much appreciated. This is the sort of thing you can't just look up, you know.

[goodhelmet]

This would be a better topic when we actually have completed the 80s project and have gone through all of the territories. Hell, I thought AWA would be murder but I am having a blast watching this stuff.

[jdw]

I'm guessing All Japan and New Japan would be fighting for #1.

 

John

[smkelly]

AWA - I haven't seen very much AWA to be honest. Maybe a few of the key matches like the Hennig-Bockwinkel hour-long match, the bloodbath Midnight Rockers vs. Rose & Somers, and that's about it.

 

Georgia - I haven't seen anything from this territory.

 

Memphis - Not as big of a fan as most. I've seen plenty, and the pimped stuff too, but I never got it.

 

World Class - Like other sets, got totally burned out and quit watching. I have a hard time watching the Von Erich's.

 

Florida - Maybe seen one of two matches...

 

Mid-South - Liked this.

 

WWF - Hit and miss for me. Found some awesome matches I'd never heard of before, like Orndorff vs. Santana, which I think is awesome. I dislike, but still rate favorably, the Steamboat - Savage WMIII match.

 

NWA - Probably my #2.

 

AJPW - My #1. But, that might stem from bias. I was most excited for this set to be released.

 

NJPW - Probably my #3.

 

Portland - Seen a handful of matches...

 

St. Louis - One match, and probably the same one most people have seen.

 

Joshi - I have some footage but have never watched it. I will likely watch the 80s set.

 

Lucha - I'm not a big lucha fan. But I will watch the 80s set.

 

P.S. I would have replied had I seen the topic!

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

AWA - Grew up watching the AWA in the late 80s so it always has a place in my heart. Most of my memories come from when it was basically already dead, so I'm looking forward to the AWA 80s set so I can view the entire promotion as a whole and compare it to my nostalgic memoris.

 

Georgia - From what little I've seen, I have enjoyed.

 

Memphis - Fun, but not something I could watch without taking extended breaks between viewings.

 

World Class - Never cared for the Von Erichs until I watched the DVDVR set and was blown away with Kerry. The whole territory was fun, but it doesn't come near Crockett or Mid South IMO.

 

Florida - Haven't seen much.

 

Mid-South - Logical, fun, intense, nostalgic, entertaining, impressive.....I could go on and on because I loved the mid-south.

 

WWF - Like the AWA, I grew up with the WWF and will anlways enjoy it.

 

NWA (Crockett) - My personal favorite. It had something for just about every type of wrestling fan.

 

AJPW - I'm four discs into this set and the reamining discs are anything like the first four, AJPW might end up being my No. 1.

 

NJPW - Only familiar with the juniors in the mid 90s.

 

Portland - Just digging into Will's Buddy Rose comp. The announcer cracks me up.

 

St. Louis - Haven't seen much.

 

Joshi - Haven't seen anything.

 

Lucha - Not a big fan.

 

My top 5:

 

1. Crockett

2. Mid South

3. World Class

4. Texas

5. WWF, AWA, AJPW, Memphis

 

Yes, there are eight territories in my top 5:) I expect AJPW to move up as I watch more.

[Childs]

AWA - Good version of Curt Henning + Stan Hansen + Rick Martel + Buddy Rose beating the hell out of Shawn Michaels = a set I should enjoy.

 

Georgia - I'm not sure the matches we have on tape are as good as the workers, by and large. Most of the stars peaked elsewhere.

 

Memphis - Best announcer ever, two of the best wrestlers ever (Lawler and Dundee) at their peaks, concession stand brawls, Shinya Hashimoto brutalizing hick jobbers. My favorite American set that has come out of the '80s project to date, though it's agonizing to know how much great shit we don't have.

 

World Class - My least favorite American set so far, because the good shit got a bit redundant, few matches seemed to reach their full potential and the promotion outright tanked for a few years before a shot of Memphis redeemed it. That said, you definitely want to see the Freebirds vs. the Von Erichs, the Dynamic Duo and Eric Embry among other treasures.

 

Florida - Not enough tape.

 

Mid-South - Big hosses beating on each other, long Dick Murdoch classics, Ernie Ladd street fighting in a golf outfit, hidden treasures from Houston, great Jim Duggan matches. It's hard to argue with Mid-South, though nothing from the set hit the peaks of Lawler-Dundee.

 

WWF - Straight nostalgia that's not quite supported by the quality of the wrestling, though 24/7 has substantially beefed up our supply of good matches in recent years. There's something to be said for popping in a disc and feeling like a kid again.

 

NWA (Crockett) - Probably the chief rival to All Japan for '80s supremacy. Flair's matches with Windham were the first "classics" I saw as a kid, and I still love them. The Midnight Express and the R 'n' R's defined what tag team wrestling should be. I totally bought the Cold War drama of Nikita beating Magnum and then fighting for his fallen rival after the motorcycle accident. Terry Funk's 1989 run is a great cherry on the sundae along with Luger's suprisingly excellent work from that year. In this case, the actual matches live up to the nostalgia.

 

AJPW - Just a ridiculous collection of great matches, most of them involving Jumbo, Tenryu or both. The evolution from native vs. gaijin in the early '80s to Choshu's invasion in 1985 to Jumbo vs. Tenryu at the end kept it from getting too samey. The great matches of 1980-1984 felt a lot different than the great matches of 1987-1989. I'm glad other people seem to be digging the set.

 

NJPW - Fewer great matches than All-Japan but more variety. I loved Choshu vs. Fujinami, the UWF invasion, the 10-man eliminations and pretty much everything the promotion cranked out in 1989 (Sano-Liger, Vader, Hashimoto, Nogami courting death, Russian amateurs, etc.) I loved working on this set, because a lot of the treasures we found came from nowhere, and guys like Hoshino, Sakaguchi and Saito came away with new reps.

 

Portland - Great TV with hot promos bleeding directly into long, smartly worked matches. Buddy Rose held the whole thing together, and for a few years there, he was about as good as anybody.

 

St. Louis - My favorite '80s stuff from St. Louis actually comes from All-Japan broadcasts. You can't beat the unintentional comedy of Hiroshi Wajima hanging out with Neil Lomax.

 

Joshi - Hard to watch in big doses because even in the '80s, the matches ran to overkill. That said, it's hard to deny the heat generated by Dump or the greatness of Jaguar and Devil.

 

Lucha - Damn shame that we don't have more footage, but the best of what we have rivals the best stuff from anywhere. Nobody did seedy, bloody hatred better than the top luchadores.

 

Europe - There was a lack of hate and urgency to a lot of World of Sport. But the best stuff featured mat creativity the likes of which you won't see anywhere else. Steve Grey and Marty Jones could hang with anybody in the world, and every fan should see a little Johnny Saint before death.

[rzombie1988]

I won't rate, but I'll tell you my thoughts on these:

 

AWA - I've enjoyed most of what I've seen. Even the later years are fine by me. Just simple stuff that's really easy to understand. I love the time around 1980 with tons of different characters and the awesomeness of Alfred Hayes and Bobby Heenan. I also am super into the Original Midnight Express.

 

Memphis - Love it. Really easy stuff to get and I love Lawler. Lance Russell is the man and I can watch their shows easier than any other promotion ever. Lord Humongous(the original) and Macho Man were also amazing and the 1983 timespan had some awesome shows.

 

WCCW - I love the Ultimate Warrior so the era with him is probably my favorite. I'm a huge Von Erich's fan as wrestling families are always really cool to me. I also enjoyed the dying USWA days with Adams and Austin having the greatest feud ever.

 

Florida/Georgia/Portland - Haven't seen much.

 

NJ - Not really interested in it. I like Inoki/Tiger and some of the UWF guys, but not really interested in watching it anymore than I already have.

 

AJ - I love how you never know who's going to come next. They had everybody from my boy Tom Magee to Raja Lion and Ron Fuller.

 

Joshi - I like seeing some of the stars before they were stars and I've enjoyed alot of the Dump stuff. I enjoy seeing all of the forgotten girls of the original JWP too.

 

Lucha - Not alot is available but I liked what I saw. I love 6-mans and colorful characters so I know I'd love it if there was more.

 

Continental - Love it. Great stuff with the Studd Stable being kings as always. The one episode of them floating around from December 1984 is one of my favorites ever. I also enjoyed Detroit Demolition.

 

Europe - I love the llave style of wrestling so I love this too. The more complicated and crazier matwork the better. Steve Wright also owns you and DK is ton's of fun.

 

WWF - Easily my favorite. Gave me some of my favorites like Demolition and The Warrior. I'm in to most of their wrestlers too. I love pretty much anything from this decade as the pre-expansion era days were great too with awesome promos and the Wiz. 1990 is my favorite year though.

 

Mid Atlantic - I find their stuff on 24/7 really boring. I can't sit through those tv shows.

 

UWF/Midsouth - Haven't scene a bunch of it, but I don't have alot of favorites from that region so it's probably not for me. I really didn't like the 80's set from this too much aside from a few matches.

 

GLOW - I like all the goofy gimmicks and easy to understand characters. The wrestling is not top notch but there's some decent matches sometimes and the rap songs were great. Spanish Red is totally hot and Ninotchka played her role great. Also have to give it up to the Housewives who should have had a longer run. I swear you could give any wrestler, even Kane himself, a rap song and they would be 100 times more entertaining.

[Graham Crackers]

Memphis - The only drawback I see to Memphis is that some of the footage is missing but the stuff on the DVDVR Memphis set blew my mind. Epic brawls, southern tags, great characters, awesome promos, and fun angles. Lawler might be my favorite wrestler of all time and you've also got Dundee and Dutch Mantell running around for most of the decade.

 

World Class - I was so busy/strapped for cash the last several months that I completely missed out on this set but I'm going to buy it soon when I buy AJPW. What I've seen looks great. Kerry is my favorite Flair opponent, the Freebirds were awesome everywhere they showed up, and Lawler shows up later in the set. You don't have to sell me on this.

 

Mid-South - If NJPW had a great high end and a bad low end than I think Mid South was consistently great without ever reaching those heights or depths. There weren't a ton of all time great matches outside of the 84-85 run but even the bottom 10 matches had some redeeming qualities.

 

WWF - I haven't seen anything other than a few highly regarded matches and I haven't seen them in a long time so i don't really know how they'll hold up. I have no problem waiting a few years for the new DVDVR WWF Set to come out to watch this stuff.

 

NWA (Crockett) - I think you could easily compare this to NJPW in terms of variety. I've seen so much great stuff from JCP but there's stilll lots more I haven't seen. When this set gets released it will be a monster

 

AJPW - I'm only familiar with Choshu's invasion and what came later but the listings for the first half of this set looks great too.

 

NJPW - The more I think about it the more I think that this could be my number 1. I may not have liked the matches from the bottom end of the NJPW set's match list but the top 40 are great and the top 20 are amazing.

 

Joshi - I really liked the Chigusa vs Devil match when I watched it a few years ago and the Dump vs Chigusa matches I saw were disturbing in a very compelling way. I don't really know what to make of 80s Joshi or what this set will be like when it comes out. I'm interested though.

 

Lucha - Possibly my favorite style of wrestling. The lack of old footage is frustrating but I'm sure there will be plenty of good stuff to make for a set of similar stature to the Memphis set. People have already mentioned the brawling and a match like MS-1 vs Sangre Chicana will probably be well received by a large group of people but I'm most excited to see more classic title matches. I doubt there are any as good as Satanico vs Gran Cochisse but I would love to be surprised.

 

Europe - I've mainly seen British grappling from the 70s (though I still haven't seen a lot) and I've really enjoyed it. The 80s are completely unknown to me and from what I've read they're not as good as the matches from the 70s but I'm sure there's plenty to discover. Watching Otto Wanz vs Vader from 89 has me wondering what the CWA was like.

[thebrainfollower]

Reviving a really old thread

 

 

AWA - The big matches are definitely quite special, but I think this territory suffered from a fairly boring weekly TV show. I would put it far below WWF in that sense. Some great workers though, both older veterans and young guys trying to make it. Lousy commentary though.

 

Georgia - I've seen tons of interviews, segments and angles but probably less than 50 matches. Seems like a fun fast paced territory that's a little disorganized at times. This might not make a lot of sense but I never see a "theme" to GCW the way you clearly see it with WWF, Crockett, or Memphis.

 

Memphis - I have been watching the weekly TV show as I ended up with tons of them. This promotion seems hit and miss by year. I didn't care for much of the 80 or 81 stuff to be honest outside of Funk-Lawler and early Bobby Eaton then loved 82-84 then things sort of fell apart again until Rich and Idol sparked my interest. It's frustrating because so much is cut to pieces and hard to really rate, but what we have is great. A really good announce team though.

 

World Class - Very overrated territory IMO. Other than Gordy's offense and Roberts bumping I don't care for the Freebirds. Kevin is a clueless idiot I'm not even sure knows wrestling is a work and Devastation Inc does nothing for me. Flair's appearances are great, but that's due to Ric not the territory. Decent announcing, good production values though.

 

Florida - From what little I've seen this promotion seems dull. As in Mike Rotunda (a top guy there for years) dull.

 

Mid-South - this SHOULD be my favorite territory but it's not. The reason is simple, Bill Watts. He's an arrogant conservative blowhard who represents everything I hate about certain philosophies. At least in the 80's Vince wasn't trying to preach "the word according to Bill" each and every week because honestly it makes me sick. I love just about everything else about this promotion, Dibiase, the R and R, Midnights, Duggan, Dr. Death you name it. If someone could just edit out Bill Watts hypocrisy (talking about your religion when you ran your business in such a way that was all but designed to break up families, cripes I wish he'd just shut up)

 

WWF - I also grew up with the WWF and consider a lot of smart fans hatred of it in the same way some film fans bash Gone with the Wind or Kane. There's something easy about taking apart whatever is on top and explaining why a less successful product is better. 80's WWF was arguably the most successful NA Wrestling product of the last 50 years, they had to do something right. And they did. Except those awful house show first 2-3 matches with SD Jones and company. There's no possible defense for that garbage.

 

NWA (Crockett) - I am not and never will be a huge Crockett fan. watching JCP is like dating a supermodel who knows you are out of her league. At the end of the day you will never get to the good stuff. JCP has some absolutely terrible finishes again and again and again and again. That's what I most love about the WWF, at the end of the day fans almost always got what they wanted. For Crockett it was about giving the workers something to keep them from hating each other, hence DQ after DQ. Having said that I LOVE all the workers and they always give an amazing show but the territory itself did them a MASSIVE injustice in how badly they were booked.

 

AJPW - Just starting to get into this

 

NJPW - Ditto

 

Portland - Buddy Rose is pretty darn awesome, I cannot argue with this. Portland did a LOT with a little.

 

St. Louis - Haven't seen much.

 

Joshi - Haven't seen anything.

 

Lucha - Not a big fan.

[Rock_Of_Jericho]

1. Crockett: IMO, this promotion had a little bit of something for everyone. The Four Horsemen carried this territory, but if you wanted a tag match, you had the RNR's Vs. MX. If you wanted brawlers, you had the Road Warriors. Dusty Rhodes, Magnum T.A., Nikita Koloff, Lex Luger, Sting all in their primes. When I was a kid, I liked the WWF more, but as an adult, Crockett may be my favorite promotion ever.

 

2. WWF: Basing this just on nostalgia mostly, but Hulk Hogan became an icon via this company. Some of the undercard stuff in the early 80's was pretty bad, but I liked the roster from top to bottom by the end of the decade. I'll never join the smark ranks who bash WWF/E, even today when they don't even appear to be trying very hard. I like all wrestling and the WWF is the gateway that brought me to the table, so it stays near the top.

 

3. WCCW: I loved watching the Von Erichs and Freebirds go to war over the decade. I try not to put too much stock in people's personal lives, because I'd be hard-pressed to find any wrestlers I like, so I can overlook the Von Erich family's issues enough to enjoy this promotion I caught every Saturday as a kid.

 

4. Memphis: The first wrestling match/angle I ever saw was from Memphis. It was the day Bill Dundee went bezerk in the studio on Jerry Lawler and the Fabulous Ones, resulting in a match in which Jerry Lawler was sent out of town. It was the next day that my neighbor brought over a copy of the original Wrestlemania and really got me started on watching wrestling. I was always enthralled in Jerry Lawler's world, because you never really knew what was gonna happen on the show. The only complaint was that it seemed cheaply thrown together, but I guess it was...

 

5. AJPW: I've always been in awe of this promotion, which IMO, has put on more epic matches than most others. I am a little biased, however, because I have mostly seen just the good stuff and, thanks to the DVDVR folks, have rarely sat through all of the crap that I'm sure every promotion has. But, they can really put on a show when they want to...

 

6. NJPW: Same story here, pretty much. Until the digital age, I was pretty limited on what I was able to see. Loved the juniors stuff in the 90's and much of the 80's Choshu Army stuff, but again, I've been spoiled and haven't sat through entire undercards and endured the rough terrain.

 

7. Mid-South: The wrestling is fine, if not outstanding at times. But, I don't know, it just seemed like it was missing something. I still have yet to make it all the way through the DVDVR set, but I just can't get invested in any of their top stars.

 

8. Portland (PNW): Most of what I've seen is based on the Roddy Piper set I bought a few years ago. I have to echo the praise that Buddy Rose receives around here. He really kept this place going and was a great heel, but he did have help from the likes of Piper, Martel, Hennig, Haynes, etc. I haven't seen much of the late 80's stuff, however, and this promotion is more watchable than most smaller ones.

 

9. AWA: I was never a huge fan of this promotion, but recall catching some stuff on ESPN back in the day. Larry Nelson annoyed the crap outta me, but having watched the DVDVR set, a lot of it wasn't that bad. However, without the Rockers-Rose/Somers stuff, it would have been one shitty company. I'm one of the few that Nick Bockwinkel bores to tears, apparently.

 

10. Joshi: I've seen limited stuff, mostly Crush Gals and Jumping Bomb Angels, but I don't think I have viewed enough from the 80's to form a solid opinion on it as a whole.

 

11. Lucha: I've been less impressed with most lucha than I thought I would be...I don't care for a lot of the mat wrestling and am admittedly turned off a little by every match being 2/3 falls. Plus, I liked hearing crowd reactions and a lot of the footage has the announcers talking so loud and I can't even really hear the arena. I've seen a lot of these matches get praise when I just sat there mostly waiting for it to be over. Probably gonna order the 80's Lucha set eventually, but I just bought 2 more yearbooks, so it may be a little while.

 

12. World of Sport/Europe: Have seen very little of this, mostly on youtube. I particularly liked a match I watched yesterday between Jim Breaks and Adrian Street, but I can tell watching this stuff on a continuous basis would get old really quickly. It's not bad and it's performed really well, but in a movie comparison, Schindler's List was a well-done movie, but I wouldn't want to watch it on a loop.

 

13. Puerto Rico: I want to like this, but I have yet to find an outstanding match from Puerto Rico. I'm open to suggestions, but every PR match I watch just hasn't done it for me.

 

14. GLOW: Silly fun, but cheesy and too over-the-top for me. I kind of wish WWF had made mention of Ivory's past with GLOW, however.

 

15. UWF/Shoot-style: Ugh, hate this stuff.

 

Stuff I haven't seen enough of to comment: Continental, Florida, St. Louis, Mid-Atlantic, but I plan to get all of the 80s sets and maybe even get some extra footage elsewhere on these.

[JerryvonKramer]

I feel like I've completed a few diplomas in pro wrestling since making this thread more than two years ago. My characterisation of AWA was way off.

 

I'm about as far from being a relativist as it is possible to get, but I am not sure the territories could or even should be ranked. It's like comparing different cuisines. You wouldn't rag on Chinese cuisine for having too many noodles in it, or criticise French cuisine for having too few noodles. A lot of the core characteristics of each place are what make them what they are.

 

And right now I'm really happy that I can watch different types of promotions side by side, develop an understanding of their own internal rules and appreciate what each of them do well.

[thebrainfollower]

Rank I'd agree with you JVK. Compare and contrast why not?

[JerryvonKramer]

With all of that said, if I was forced to choose right now it would be between WWF, JCP and Mid-South. I like well-booked storylines, great promos and big memorable characters in wrestling as much as I like great matches, and all three of these companies delivered that in the 80s. My love of that aspect of wrestling puts a cap on me ever preferring Japanese wrestling or Lucha to an English-language product. So as much as I really really love the high-end All Japan matches and the drama between Tenryu / Jumbo etc., it's not enough to put it over the top.

 

Memphis and Georgia are the two territories I've yet to watch that I'd give a chance to break these three. Memphis because it's famous for its angles; Georgia because too many great workers passed through there at interesting times in their careers (late 70s - early 80s) for it not to be totally awesome.

 

Anyway ... Vince, Watts and Dusty all have strengths and weakness as bookers / promoters.

 

Strengths:

- Vince was the master of producing big memorable moments that stay long in the memory and of the mythmaking around those moments. He's also the master at just "creating" characters, sometimes with amazing results (and many times with dismal failure)

- Watts was great at plotting angles, great turns, and and at putting heat on the right people at the right times. Also, Mid-South feels like the most balanced of the three. Also, I feel like Watts was able to do more with less.

- Dusty was great at booking a chase and at gimmick matches.

 

Weaknesses

- Vince didn't always see the value in putting heat on the heel or putting the heel over and also consistently de-emphasised wrestling within "the match" as part of his presentation. In addition, sometimes his tendency to "create anew" rather than rely on a guy's past history ended up hurting workers.

- Watts went to the well too often and in the end booked too many twists and turns and also, especially as time went on, struggled to adapt to a changing landscape

- Dusty had the opposite problem to Vince: he didn't know when to pull the trigger on a face and send him over; too often the face ends up screwed or looking like a bottler

[JerryvonKramer]

Rank I'd agree with you JVK. Compare and contrast why not?

If I was going to work out some sort of criteria for comparison it would be something like:

 

- Match quality ("no. of great matches")

- Booking quality (long-term storylines, specific angles, character building stuff)

- Presentation (everything from announce teams to camera work to entrances)

- Key workers (bit of a fugde category but this covers stuff like your promos and general non-match specific traits of the rosters)

 

If I had to dish out ratings then:

 

JCP is on 100 Match Quality, 70 for Booking, 60 for presentation, 95 for workers.

WWF is on 60 match quality, 90 for booking, 100 for presentation, 85 for workers.

MSW probably 85 match quality, 90 for booking, 85 for presentation, 80 for workers

 

Something like that.

[NintendoLogic]

Bottler?

[JerryvonKramer]

"Choker"

[goodhelmet]

5563378[/url]']

5563374[/url]' date='Sep 17 2013, 11:03 PM']Rank I'd agree with you JVK. Compare and contrast why not?

If I was going to work out some sort of criteria for comparison it would be something like:

 

- Match quality ("no. of great matches")

- Booking quality (long-term storylines, specific angles, character building stuff)

- Presentation (everything from announce teams to camera work to entrances)

- Key workers (bit of a fugde category but this covers stuff like your promos and general non-match specific traits of the rosters)

 

If I had to dish out ratings then:

 

JCP is on 100 Match Quality, 70 for Booking, 60 for presentation, 95 for workers.

WWF is on 60 match quality, 90 for booking, 100 for presentation, 85 for workers.

MSW probably 85 match quality, 90 for booking, 85 for presentation, 80 for workers

 

Something like that.

 

I would disagree with you strongly on those JCP rankings. When you add up the final tally on the JCP matches, they might end up with the best wrestling product. However, you sat through a whole lot of nothing some months just to get one good marquee match on TV. Watts was presenting marquee matchups week in and week out since 1983 through 1987. WWF would have a lot of squashes on their syndicated tv but no more than JCP. The Prime Time show also had more featured matchups than JCP even when Superstars was squash city. If presentation takes announcers into consideration, I don't see how JCP gets a 60. I loved the Tony and David team. Watts always had the weakest announce teams of the three.

[thebrainfollower]

From what I've seen Superstars and even Challenge had more consistent marquee matchups during sweeps weeks (Feb, May and Nov) than JCP did. JCP had better ones though I'd agree with that wholeheartedly.

[JerryvonKramer]

5563378[/url]']

5563374[/url]' date='Sep 17 2013, 11:03 PM']Rank I'd agree with you JVK. Compare and contrast why not?

If I was going to work out some sort of criteria for comparison it would be something like:

 

- Match quality ("no. of great matches")

- Booking quality (long-term storylines, specific angles, character building stuff)

- Presentation (everything from announce teams to camera work to entrances)

- Key workers (bit of a fugde category but this covers stuff like your promos and general non-match specific traits of the rosters)

 

If I had to dish out ratings then:

 

JCP is on 100 Match Quality, 70 for Booking, 60 for presentation, 95 for workers.

WWF is on 60 match quality, 90 for booking, 100 for presentation, 85 for workers.

MSW probably 85 match quality, 90 for booking, 85 for presentation, 80 for workers

 

Something like that.

 

I would disagree with you strongly on those JCP rankings. When you add up the final tally on the JCP matches, they might end up with the best wrestling product. However, you sat through a whole lot of nothing some months just to get one good marquee match on TV. Watts was presenting marquee matchups week in and week out since 1983 through 1987. WWF would have a lot of squashes on their syndicated tv but no more than JCP. The Prime Time show also had more featured matchups than JCP even when Superstars was squash city. If presentation takes announcers into consideration, I don't see how JCP gets a 60. I loved the Tony and David team. Watts always had the weakest announce teams of the three.

 

It's not just announcing, it's camera work, it's how the whole package is presented. I love Tony and David too. If it was announcing alone, it would be damn close. But JCP production values, camera work, and so on are not stellar. It's a constant talking point for Meltzer and there are many moments where they make basic errors in TV production that make them seem "bush league". I didn't put a great deal of thought into these numbers, maybe the MSW rating for production is a bit high.

 

As for the "match quality" rating, it's not a barometer for overall week-to-week consistency, but a flat calculation based on TOTAL NUMBER OF GREAT MATCHES. I put JCP over the top because they have the greatest number of great matches. Not very sophisticated.

 

Sometimes though goodhelmet, I'm being a bit of an agent provocateur with slightly off-hand posts like that one. Are these metrics the right metrics? If not, which ones are right and why? Are these ratings the right ratings and if not, why?

 

I am not sure what metric "week-to-week consistency" would be, or how you reward that vs. total number of great matches. Something to talk about.

[goodhelmet]

Shit... Completely forgot Watts had Jim Ross.

[Matt D]

Shit... Completely forgot Watts had Jim Ross.

What do you think of Watts as an announcer, Will?

[JerryvonKramer]

Well this is interesting.

[JerryvonKramer]

Choices, choices. Can either continue this discussion about the films of Burt Reynolds or dig into the Lucha set which arrived today ...

 

To bring back an old topic, I too would like to know what Will thinks of Bill Watts as an announcer. Boyd Pierce feels like a total waste of space to me, but right now I reckon Watts was arguably better than Jim Ross in that time frame as an announcer. Any thoughts?

[BrickHithouse]

To bring back an old topic, I too would like to know what Will thinks of Bill Watts as an announcer. Boyd Pierce feels like a total waste of space to me, but right now I reckon Watts was arguably better than Jim Ross in that time frame as an announcer. Any thoughts?

I agree that Boyd is fairly awful, but I like him. Reminds me of my grandpa.

 

Also agree that Watts was better than Ross in MS, for the most part. Watts made everything so clear and believable as an announcer. JR probably hit his peak in down the road in '89 or so.