CM Punk: Greatest Promo Ever

[jdw]

"He's just a flippy floppy guy."

-WrestlingClassics

 

John

[MJH]

It's probably best transferred into the earlier GOAT-thread if we're running with the segue but:

 

Rey's great - the only guy in the world I'd call great. But I don't feel any urge to put him on that kind of a pedestal. I mean, at any point when he was alive, given their "down turns" basically coincided, was he Eddy's equal? I don't think he was (not that that's by any means an insult). And whilst perhaps his work in the last 5/6 years has put him over Eddy on a career-vs-career basis, and there's still your usual problems with modern WWE that you can use to argue against that, I'm still not fully sold nor do I think you could make the case when a very obvious contemporary and comparative worker was better for so long.

 

What I do think Rey is, though, absolutely, is the best US babyface worker. I know Dylan's high on Morton, but if Steamboat was the barometer of the past I think Rey's jumped him.

[Matt D]

I really hope they save teaming Punk and Cena until Survivor Series.

[Dylan Waco]

It's probably best transferred into the earlier GOAT-thread if we're running with the segue but:

 

Rey's great - the only guy in the world I'd call great. But I don't feel any urge to put him on that kind of a pedestal. I mean, at any point when he was alive, given their "down turns" basically coincided, was he Eddy's equal? I don't think he was (not that that's by any means an insult). And whilst perhaps his work in the last 5/6 years has put him over Eddy on a career-vs-career basis, and there's still your usual problems with modern WWE that you can use to argue against that, I'm still not fully sold nor do I think you could make the case when a very obvious contemporary and comparative worker was better for so long.

 

What I do think Rey is, though, absolutely, is the best US babyface worker. I know Dylan's high on Morton, but if Steamboat was the barometer of the past I think Rey's jumped him.

Ignoring the tired argument about modern WWE for the time being, Will and I did a year by year comp on Rey/Eddy recently. Will is a wee bit higher on Eddy than I am (we both love him so it's pretty much splitting hairs) but I think the conclusion we both reached is that it is really hard to make the case that Eddy is the better guy in a GOAT comparison.

 

Head-to-head in years where they both worked?

 

I'm pretty ignorant on pre-95 Rey (seen a smattering of stuff here and there), but I can't conceive of any argument to support the theory that he was less than Eddy's equal from the span of 95-05. When you look at it year-by-year I think that becomes really evident actually.

[NintendoLogic]

To be honest, I can't really remember the last Rey match that was great in the same sense that Rey/Eddy or Punk/Cena was great. To be sure, he's AC/DC-esque in that he's been consistently good for a long time and doesn't have too many outright clunkers to his name. But I kind of feel like some people are taking his Stiff Upper Lip and Black Ice and trying to pass them off as Back in Black.

[Dylan Waco]

If you mean the last "holy shit this was a great match that could conceivably go into an all time wrestling canon" great Rey's last match of that sort was probably v. Punk at last years Over The Limit ppv. I don't think it was that much better a match than Rey v. Punk from a couple of ppv's back or even Rey v. Cena from a couple of Raw's back but it had a hot angle behind it and other unique qualities that make it stand out. Before that I think the Jericho match at the Bash and before that his performance in the 09 Elimination Chamber.

 

The older I get as a fan the more those matches matter less to me though. Not because they aren't incredible, but because often times what separates those matches from something like Rey v. Ziggler form Summerslam a couple years back or even the insane Raw Triple Threat that Rey starred in a few weeks back is the angle/build up to it. Rey is the best tv wrestler I've ever seen by a huge margin and there are a probably hundreds of trivial/bit part/non-angle relevant Rey matches that I would consider at least arguably great.

[MJH]

Will and I did a year by year comp on Rey/Eddy recently. Will is a wee bit higher on Eddy than I am (we both love him so it's pretty much splitting hairs) but I think the conclusion we both reached is that it is really hard to make the case that Eddy is the better guy in a GOAT comparison.

I'd agree on "splitting hairs" definitely, but as far as it being "really hard" to make the case that Eddy's better?

 

I'm not saying it's a 'slam dunk' comparison that Eddy > Rey; they're both great as in great and not "so-and-so's been pretty great recently". Eddy's obviously far more well-rounded (though when you're Rey's size and I'm sure he probably still looks about 15 without a mask, he was always going to be "limited" in that regard) and had a wider range of what he could do; he could fly and base really (really) well, do great comedy schtick (Chyna; Loss Guerreros/Lie, Cheat Steal) to really intense, and whilst I do think Rey was a better pure face worker, like I said the best ever in the US for me, I do think Eddy's actual connection with the crowd was more resonant.

 

Whilst he was great at it, probably the most spectacular flyer to've come around at the time, I do think Rey's "junior peak" (? I know he's not even close to technically being a heavyweight now but you get what I mean) is more spectacular than anything else. The work itself is beautiful with Juvy and Psicosis, but as I've watched them back at various points, none have really struck me as being nearly as well-laid-out as Rey's stuff has been in the last decade. I mean, Rey's sensational at Havoc - you could hardly be any more en pointe with those spots - but at the same time, it's clearly Eddy's match.

[goodhelmet]

"He's just a flippy floppy guy."

-WrestlingClassics

 

John

What a stupid thing to say.

[goodhelmet]

Oh and yeah... start a Rey Mysterio thread or something. This thread is for CM Punk SHOOTZ Promos.

[Kostka]

Rey was every bit as good as Eddy in 2005, and Eddy was phenomenal that year.

 

I'd put Reys 1996, 2006, 2009, 2010 and 2011 side by side with Eddys best years too.

 

But yeah, CM Punk is cool.

[El-P]

I stumbled onto MITB a few weeks ago on french TV, and while CM Punk's entrance was awesome and he looked really kinda great, the fact that his match with Cena is considered a MOTY was a pretty clear cut sign that I thought current wrestling definitely had passed me by.

 

Just coming back from vacation, and I'm learning all that happened in the past few days, including CM Punk losing his title because of KEVIN NASH in 2011, well, maybe it hasn't passed me by that much, maybe it just totally sucks.

 

Either way, not good.

[Dylan Waco]

I stumbled onto MITB a few weeks ago on french TV, and while CM Punk's entrance was awesome and he looked really kinda great, the fact that his match with Cena is considered a MOTY was a pretty clear cut sign that I thought current wrestling definitely had passed me by.

What was problematic about that match v. something like Bret v. DBS or Backlund v. Patera or Shawn v. Foley or anyone of the other matches that are often considered top level WWF matches of all time?

[El-P]

I stumbled onto MITB a few weeks ago on french TV, and while CM Punk's entrance was awesome and he looked really kinda great, the fact that his match with Cena is considered a MOTY was a pretty clear cut sign that I thought current wrestling definitely had passed me by.

What was problematic about that match v. something like Bret v. DBS or Backlund v. Patera or Shawn v. Foley or anyone of the other matches that are often considered top level WWF matches of all time?

 

Self-conscious modern WWE epic with a truly awkward and not very good worker in John Cena in it. I was thinking : "good match aiming at looking way better than it actually is". Just couldn't hold my interest after a while.

[NintendoLogic]

People are still shitting on Cena's wrestling ability? He's been in way too many good matches to be considered a bad or even a mediocre worker.

[MJH]

"Not very good" isn't "shitting" on him; nor is calling him "awkward" when he pretty clear is.

[Jingus]

Cena's match with Jack Swagger a couple weeks back was a nice summary of some of his clumsy tendencies. He stiffs the shit out of Swagger right in the throat with a clothesline, follows it up with an awkward airball of dropkick that Jerry Lawler would be embarrassed to claim as his own, and then hits some strikes which showed miles of daylight.

[NintendoLogic]

"Not very good" isn't "shitting" on him; nor is calling him "awkward" when he pretty clear is.

It isn't? I'm pretty sure that saying someone isn't very good at his job isn't a compliment.

 

And yes, he's awkward. So what? That really has no bearing on his ability to perform. Plenty of wrestlers with much more severe physical limitations have had good matches.

[MJH]

"Not very good" can still mean he's "good", "solid", "ok", "fine"... it doesn't have to equate to being awful/terrible/whatever. Now, of course, maybe Jerome does think that Cena's the absolute drizzling shits . I don't, I think he does enough stuff well-enough to be fine; every so often I think he was good in such a match. I don't think I've ever thought he was "very good" though.

 

As far as awkwardness goes, of course it has a bearing on his ability. Is it the be all/end all? No. But people are very forgiving towards Cena in that regard; a lot of what he does looks bad and would look even worse live/without the WWE changing shots to hide the impact on everything. It doesn't bother me so much at this point (I can understand it bothering Jerome a lot more, as an example of someone who doesn't watch very much modern WWE) but the idea that execution is completely irrelevent is ridiculous.

[Dylan Waco]

Execution may not be completely irrelevant but I think it is easy to exaggerate it's importance and/or cherry pick where it is relevant. Watching the AJPW set some of the untouchable messiah figures of internet markdown were far from crisp even in their best matches. Didn't hurt those matches much either.

[Ronnie]

"Not very good" isn't "shitting" on him; nor is calling him "awkward" when he pretty clear is.

No lesser an authority than Randy Orton said the same thing in that interview in which he brought up questions of Kelly Kelly's chastity. He said that, while Cena smokes everyone on the mic, "When it comes to wrestling, heh heh, in the ring, like the technical aspect, like, I feel as if I blow him away in that aspect. I feel like I'm more of an athlete. Now, the guy can squat 800 pounds; I'm not saying that he ain't ... he's not an athlete. But as far as, like, just watching him, I feel like he's a little bulky and big, a little stiff, hard to move, robotic. It certainly hasn't hurt him and that's not necessarily a dig."

[El-P]

"Not very good" isn't "shitting" on him; nor is calling him "awkward" when he pretty clear is.

It isn't? I'm pretty sure that saying someone isn't very good at his job isn't a compliment.

 

And yes, he's awkward. So what? That really has no bearing on his ability to perform. Plenty of wrestlers with much more severe physical limitations have had good matches.

 

Indeed, "not very good" means exactly that : "not very good". It doesn't mean "godawful" or "terrible". "Awkward" means exactly that, he moves in a very unsmooth way, looks clumsy, nothing he does looks crisp or even solid. A goofy oaf he is. On occasion he can really suck, from what I've seen he's decent enough to be involved in a lot of good matches thanks to the controlled nature of WWE style. I absolutely don't buy the "great Cena era" of the late 00's, I've seen zero Cena match I would call better than "very good".

 

I don't think Cena sucks as a pro-wrestler, I think he's pretty much perfect for that era and the role he's been put into : tons of charisma (although the character sucks, but that's another thing), knows how to work the big match style despite mechanically being a clumsy oaf. Overall I would say Cena is a average to decent worker. That mean he's also, "not very good".

[El-P]

the WWE changing shots to hide the impact on everything. It doesn't bother me so much at this point (I can understand it bothering Jerome a lot more, as an example of someone who doesn't watch very much modern WWE)

It drives me nuts, makes the matches very hard to watch, and is a huge part why everyone looks "decent". It's a production trick.

[Ditch]

the WWE changing shots to hide the impact on everything. It doesn't bother me so much at this point (I can understand it bothering Jerome a lot more, as an example of someone who doesn't watch very much modern WWE)

It drives me nuts, makes the matches very hard to watch, and is a huge part why everyone looks "decent". It's a production trick.

 

And those of us like El-P and myself who aren't used to it and only watch occasional matches can't NOT fixate on it.

 

How long has it been like this? I don't remember it being that way when I stopped watching weekly in 2003.

[goodhelmet]

I have been to three live WWE shows in the past two years, sitting no further than third row and never got the idea that the impact in the matches was a production trick.

[El-P]

And those of us like El-P and myself who aren't used to it and only watch occasional matches can't NOT fixate on it.

Yes, it's just insane to look at.

 

Really, to use a bizarre comparison, modern WWE style to me is Autotune wrestling : everything is leveled down, anyone can look at least decent because everything is so simplified, safe, robotized and pasteurized, there's no personality in anything, it's even faker looking that the cartoon era thanks to the super slick production, it's the same shit over and over again, it's been totally sucked out of everything that made wrestling fun to me. If that's the apex of wrestling TV, then I guess I'm not much of a wrestling fan after all. Much like I'd rather listen to music produced without any Autotune.

 

Then again, the people who produce those shows aren't wrestling fan or wrestling people either, to the point they're in complete denial about what business they're into. To me it transpires through the way this product is written and produced. It makes whatever good pure wrestling content totally irrelevant. Sorry if I sound like a bitter old man, but there's nothing for me to watch on these shows I haven't seen before done a shitload better without the terrible WWE taste.