2011 Observer Hall of Fame thread

[Dylan Waco]

There is a good bit of Saint available, perhaps more than I let on. My point was more or less that he's not a guy that has been widely explored and analyzed by tape traders like other guys who would be considered HoF candidates because of work alone. I really like Saint a lot and I would venture to guess that I've watched more WoS than most. Probably far more than Bruce. I have a hard time seeing how Saint stands out above Jim Breaks who up until Saint popped up in Chikara seemed to be a guy that had more of a consensus flavor to him among people who followed the British scene. Breaks isn't on the ballot.

 

Saint is on the ballot because of his U.S. indy work as much as anything else and if he gets in that will be a huge factor.

 

On Edge, I'm waiting for him to get in this year so I can roll out my "100 wrestlers who are better HoF candidates" than Edge list.

[ohtani's jacket]

The British TV stars like McManus and Pallo belong in the HOF before Johnny Saint.

[kjh]

The British TV stars like McManus and Pallo belong in the HOF before Johnny Saint.

Exactly. Saint getting in first would be like Daniel Bryan being voted in before John Cena. I think McManus and Pallo may have to get in by being historically overlooked candidates (ditto Henri Deglane) if the voting is skewed by people like Bruce who have only a cursory knowledge of the British scene.

[Loss]

Work entrants in the HOF are based on reputation, not reality. Wrestlers don't get in because they're great workers, they get in because they are hardcore darlings who have reputations as great workers. That doesn't mean that anyone in on work isn't great, but that's not why they are in. It's all about memory and popular consensus opinion, for better or worse. Re-evaluation and watching tapes years later isn't something that has really ever caught on with that crowd, mainly because Dave sees no value in it. Stories in books and shoot interviews filled with rose-colored memories about how great someone was years ago go much farther than footage people can actually track down to see for themselves. And even if footage was tracked down, the HOF organizer would make the point that its value was limited because it was being watched out of context.

 

All that said, I have no idea how Bruce made that pick, but then again, why would he vote for the Steiners in the past and not do so now? His ballot doesn't really have much rhyme or reason.

 

It's worth remembering: Shawn Michaels is in on work. His drawing power as a headliner and professionalism during his physical prime worked against him getting in for years. The argument was always that his in-ring was the one thing he had going for him, and the debate was rarely over how great he was (except for with jdw), and more over if it was enough on its own to put him in. I think your average HOF voter is in a totally different place with fandom than we are, and looks at wrestling in a different way. Memory and reputation are the guiding forces, not facts and footage. I don't agree with that, but that's how the HOF has been run.

[kjh]

All that said, I have no idea how Bruce made that pick, but then again, why would he vote for the Steiners in the past and not do so now? His ballot doesn't really have much rhyme or reason.

The Steiners have dropped off the ballot, so he couldn't vote for them even if he wanted to. IIRC, Bruce when he did vote for them was influenced by rose-colored memories of their run in Japan and thought it was longer and more significant than it actually was.

[jdw]

I think the interesting thing about Bruce's comments on Saint is that it does show that voting based on "work" isn't dead yet.

 

John

[GSR]

I like how it starts with the premise that he was one of the great workers from his era (this is probably true, but there's not a ton of footage from his peak, "one of the great" is not much of a statement on it's surface and it's highly debatable whether or not he's even the best in ring performer from that general time period in his country) and evolves into "or at least this era" which can be read a lot of ways but seems to imply that Bruce has no fucking clue whether or not Saint was really any good in WoS or not. Also I am amused by the notion that Saint's handful of matches on U.S. soil over the last couple of years make him a serious HoF contender. This would be like Phil Schneider or myself arguing that Black Terry should go in because he was the best wrestler in the World in 2010. Actually with Saint it's worse - his value is being judged on four or five matches. There is a lot of 2010 Black Terry easily available. I'm not even sure what the hell to compare this too, though the Ultimo "he did cool shit when he was on tv here and some guys who became wrestlers thought he was cool" standard seems to fit on the surface.

I think this hits the nail on the head perfectly. The only reason Saint is on the ballot is due to his US indy appearances over the past couple of years for Chikara. If he had never ventured across to the US or if he had stayed retired then he wouldn't even be being discussed.

[FLIK]

If he had never ventured across to the US or if he had stayed retired then he wouldn't even be being discussed.

Not true, I mean, WoS in general was never the most talked about thing among the hardcore audiance but among those that did know, Saint always had a positive rep. Like years before he came out of retirement he was a guy being praised by online fans and indy dudes and having best of comps made and traded around.

 

It's only in the past year or 2 that the British wrestlers have been included on the ballot and I remember a bit before then when Dave would talk about diffrent people lobying for their includion Saint's name would usually come up in that conversation as well.

[Dylan Waco]

Was Saint even on the ballot last year? Breaks has had as many fans online as Saint until the last couple of years and he is not on the ballot. If Saint was not thought highly of by a lot of the ''indy'' darlings of recent years and did not have the Chikara matches I doubt he would be on the ballot, let alone a guy who appears to have a good shot of going in. Again, I like Saint, but other than the fact that he feels more exotic to Americans I am not sure what makes him a better candidate than say William Regal.

[evilclown]

I vaguely remember a bit of "Saint Mania" after he did some M Pro shots in the 1990's. American hardcores have wanted to love him for quite awhile.

[jdw]

Saint was sort of the star of the first batch of British tapes/matches that hit the shore. One probably could date it by looking at when they showed up on one of Lynch's updates, or perhaps when the DVDVR first reviewed one of his matches. I want to say it's been a decade. I seem to recall there even was a Johnny Saint comp done, possibly by Phil.

 

I'm not sure that made much of a mark on Bruce, but he does get a variety of tapes sent to him.

 

John

[MJH]

Rocco is the guy (who we have footage of, as opposed to a George Kidd) with the reputation in Britain as being the best worker. Saint wasn't/isn't too far behind him, though.

[Dylan Waco]

No doubt that Saint was one of the first guys to really hit from the British scene which shows up in the appreciation guys like Cabana, Quackenbush, et. have for him. However as recently as five years ago Breaks seemed to be the WoS guy that was getting pimped the most.

 

Either way I don't see how he is a better HoF candidate than McManus, Pallo or Daddy at minimum.

[jdw]

Yeah, Breaks was getting pimping around the time of the SC GWE poll:

 

#115 Jim Breaks (393 pts / 7 votes / 44.9 average placement)

#134 Johnny Saint (285 pts / 7 votes / 60.3 average placement)

 

Rocco finished higher:

 

#81 Mark Rocco (813 pts / 18 votes / 55.8 average placement)

 

But it was more a function of the number of votes than how high he placed.

 

Fit was very much a function of people seeing his US stuff:

 

#55 Dave Finlay (1469 pts / 27 vote / 46.6 average placement)

 

Given Saint and Breaks were on just 7 ballots, I would suspect that was the "Euro Vote" in the poll. Not people voters from Europe, but people who watched enough British wrestling to feel comfortable voting for British Saint and Breaks.

 

Then Rocco and Finlay picked off another 11 and 20 voters based on their non-British work.

 

John

[FLIK]

I am not sure what makes him a better candidate than say William Regal.

Context.

Even though he started in Europe, any case for Regal is going to be made based almost entirely on his US work and judged against other US stars there's no way you can argue him as a serious HOF candidate.

 

Judged against his contemporaries, Saint stands out a lot more then Regal. I 100% agree that there's others not on the ballot like Breaks who are just as deserving of a mention but that doesn't = Saint not still being in that upper tier.

 

Not people voters from Europe, but people who watched enough British wrestling to feel comfortable voting for British Saint and Breaks.

Heh, yeah, that was in the days before finding stuff online was so easy so most people voting in that poll hadn't seen any of their stuff.

 

As a side note - I highly highly recomend everyone go track down the 2 Saint vs Breaks matches on youtube that were built around them trying to break each other's noses in nasty ways. Awesome stuff.

[GSR]

Was Saint even on the ballot last year? Breaks has had as many fans online as Saint until the last couple of years and he is not on the ballot. If Saint was not thought highly of by a lot of the ''indy'' darlings of recent years and did not have the Chikara matches I doubt he would be on the ballot, let alone a guy who appears to have a good shot of going in. Again, I like Saint, but other than the fact that he feels more exotic to Americans I am not sure what makes him a better candidate than say William Regal.

The first time that there was a specific European category was for the 2009 Hall of Fame, and Saint wasn't included in the original batch of nominees who were Marc Rocco, Big Daddy, Kendo Nagasaki, Mick McManus and Jackie Pallo. Saint is mentioned in the 'added to the ballot next year' comments (along with Kent Walton, who absolutely should have been listed with the initial batch of candidates). I don't know how early Dave sends the ballots out for the Hall of Fame or how early he drew up a list of European candidates, but whilst Saint may very well have been known to the hardcores and heavy tape traders/watchers, it was the 2009 King of Trios where he seemed to 'garner his name' with the masses and likes of Alvarez et al who I had never even heard mention him prior to this. As others have said if you are going to include Saint on the ballot, you really should be adding contemporaries such as Jim Breaks, Steve Grey, Marty Jones etc. If some of these had been added to the ballot along with Saint it wouldn't have been an issue, just the fact that Saint tours for Chikara, gathers a whole host of new fans and is then added to the ballot.

[Dylan Waco]

My point with the Regal comp to Saint is that both guys are guys who have really hardcore fans of their work in tape trading/net circles. Both guys are also known as guys who have influenced the modern crop of "indy" guys some of whom have gone on to become big stars. In fact if anything Regal has had more of an influence since Regal has actually worked first hand with some of them in developmental over the years.

[KrisZ]

Plus Regal has way more of a cache than Saint does with 18 years experience working here.

[Herodes]

Saint has the cool tricks and escapes which would make him a cult favourite when you first see him because it's a skinny old British guy doing weird shit like rolling himself into a ball and it seems pretty out there, but if you watch a comp of the man it's basically the same shit every time and gets kinda old after the first few times. The matches aren't really that compelling, I can't seriously believe he belongs into the HOF especially ahead of stars like Big Daddy, Mick McManus, Jackie Pallo, Kendo Nagasaki etc.

[FLIK]

but if you watch a comp of the man it's basically the same shit every time and gets kinda old after the first few times.

I thought that too for a bit and he def does go into a routine later on in his career but i've seen enough now to know that he could switch things up and was a lot more versitile then some may give him credit for.

[Dylan Waco]

Went ahead and did a Gordy List on Blackwell mainly because I think it is a more readable format to post on Classics or even send to Dave to argue for Blackwell on the ballot next year and at least get voters thinking about him. Even though I think it is an extremely flawed metric, I may also throw on an addendum noting the number of known 10k plus shows Blackwell was in the main or semi-main for (we are missing a ton of figures from 80-82 so I may also show some percentages - for example Blackwell headlined or co-headlined almost a third of 10k AWA shows in history based on available figures. He headlined or co-headlined almost three quarters of 10k shows the promotion had during the 80's)

 

1. Was he ever regarded as the best draw in the world? Was he ever regarded as the best draw in his country or his promotion?

 

Regarded is the tricky word here. He was certainly never the best draw in the World or the country. I do not think it is a big stretch to say he was one of the best draws in the country in 83 and 84. You could argue that he was the best draw in his promotion every year from 80-85, though I tend to think that is excessive. 80, 81 and 82 we just lack enough evidence to say one way or the other though at minimum he was one of the top two or three heels and one of the two freshest stars to emerge from the AWA during the period (the other being Hogan). The evidence does strongly suggest that he was the biggest heel draw in the promotion in 83 and the biggest draw in the promotion as both a face and a heel in 84. He was also clearly the most consistent and strongest drawing singles wrestler in the AWA in 85.

 

 

2. Was he an international draw, national draw and/or regional draw?

 

Not an international draw at all, unless one wants to argue for Winnipeg where Blackwell did great business over the years fits under this category (technically it does, but it seems wrong to consider a regular "loop" town in this equation). National is arguable though I would lean toward "no." Yes he did big numbers in the outlying towns of the AWA (Vegas, Salt Lake City and even popping the dead San Francisco town more than anyone else from that era), while being a main event level player in St. Louis at the same time. He also got at least some national exposure through the magazines, PWUSA, and eventually ESPN. Still there isn't much to indicate that he was a draw of any magnitude in his WWWF or Mid-Atlantic stints and you can't be a national draw if half the country is off the table. He was a strong regional star though and the company he was based out of covered a shitload of geographic territory, with Blackwell doing well across the board (in addition to the Western towns mentioned this would include Chicago, Green Bay, Milwaukee, St. Paul, Denver, et.).

 

3. How many years did he have as a top draw?

 

We don't have enough figures to be sure but it is arguable that he was the biggest draw in the AWA from at least some of 1980 as his run v. Crusher was booked over title matches for a while and the Andre matches at the end of the year combined with the battle royals were probably the biggest (figuratively and literally) matches of the year that weren't for the AWA title.

 

In 81 he was consistently in mains or semi-mains again including an excellent number v. Verne in Chicago (we don't have a number for the rematch sadly), more stuff v. Crusher and Baron, and a run as Hogan's first real "around the loop" main event opponent.

 

82 is dominated by High Flyers v. Blackwell/Adnan which was really the go to match for the bulk of the year. At times it wasn't a home run, but it held steady all year, did very good numbers in some cases and the stuff Blackwell did around the feud did well also. We also lack numbers from the big buildings in 82 which is too bad but if you use Winnipeg and SLC as a litmus test the territory was fairly hot. We don't really have the numbers, but Blackwell was a semi-main event/main event guy in St. Louis for the entire year as well working with and against Patera, Andre, Dick The Bruiser and others.

 

In 83 Blackwell starts the year paired with Adnan v. both the High Flyers and Mad Dog/Baron in matches that do great business. This builds to the Verne/Mad Dog match v. Adnan/Blackwell that was the actual main event at Super Sunday which may have been the most financially successful show in AWA history (the popular mythology now is that this was "all" Bock v. Hogan - if you watch the tv leading into this, it's clear that's not true). Patera is brought in as his partner and the rest of the year the Sheiks are red hot working against a wide variety of top level opponents, setting up a feud with the High Flyers, and drawing huge numbers around the loop. Hogan was no doubt a factor and probably the biggest draw in the company, but at this point if you look at the figures it feels like the Sheiks are a strong number two on the depth chart of a company that is making serious cash. In fact, it's not absurd to consider them 1a to Hogan's 1 much like Slaughter arguably was with Hogan the next year in the WWF. Meanwhile in St. Louis he gets a huge push with a string of four straight main events, including a Missouri title win, an NWA title match against Flair and then dropping the Missouri title to Race. The next show he comes back and wins a Battle Royal along with working in a huge six-man semi-main keeping him strong. He then goes into a lengthy program with Hogan before finishing the year in semi-mains defending the AWA tag belts with Patera.

 

Despite Hogan leaving the AWA stays hot in 84 on the strength of Sheiks, selling out in places like Chicago, Milwaukee and Green Bay that were FAR from guaranteed sellouts, drawing huge crowds in Salt Lake City and Winnipeg, culminating in another huge St. Paul show headlined by High Flyers v. Sheiks blowoff that is another one of the biggest shows in AWA history and the biggest drawing show of the year for the AWA. This was all done right after Hogan left and while Jumbo was champ - it's pretty clear who the draws were. Blackwell stays hot working in main events everywhere until his face turn at the sellout Battle Royal show. He takes a couple months off to sell the injury and business dies immediately around the loop. I mean a massive die off. When he returns he is the top face and business immediately spikes and is back up to excellent numbers by the end of the year with Blackwell in feature roles, if not main events, on every show. In St. Louis he is primarily utilized in tag teams though he does get some semi-main events and main events including a farmed out Brody match that does poorly on top. Still they appear to have faith in him down there for the most part and he was farmed out to Central States for a string of main events that year as well.

 

The first five months of 85 are a mixed bag. Blackwell misses some time and it is clear the shows are worse off when he's not there. When he is there the numbers are down in the bigger arenas but they are still "good" and there are more good numbers than bad overall, including some huge numbers by AWA standards in San Fran and a run v. Adnan in double cage main events that did quality business. Starrcage does 12k, a good but disappointing number. Verne's split crews and westward expansion, were combining with the loss of talent and Vince's hardcore expansion to hurt. When Blackwell and the Roadies take a huge chunk of time off after May business tanks and it never really recovers despite the SuperClash show doing reasonably well. Blackwell works on, or near the top of several St. Louis shows as well, feuding with Race, winning a second Missouri title and co-main eventing what I think was the last 10k plus match in St. Louis Wrestling Club history.

 

80-82 we have really incomplete figures but we have tv footage that tells us the territory was hot and that Blackwell was a heavily pushed star in the very upper tier. We have some strong numbers. In 83-84 we have plenty of figures. Lots of sellouts. Lots of "standing room only" mentions. Lots of 10k plus shows in a territory that didn't run very many 10k plus venues, including some record setting numbers. 85 is quite the mixed bag, but he was a part of some huge shows and like with 84 when he was gone the company really croaked at the gate.

 

Saying he was a top draw from mid-80 to mid-85 seems accurate.

 

 

4. Was he ever regarded as the best worker in the world? Was he ever regarded as the best worker in his country or in his promotion?

 

He was definitely never regarded as any of the above. Looking back now you could certainly make the case that he was the best in ring performer in the AWA in 83, 84 and perhaps even 85. Having said that even among those who would be willing to go back and watch the footage I don't think Blackwell would be regarded as the superior of Bockwinkel, Martel or Hennig. He would probably be viewed as a top five AWA guy from 80-85 cumulatively and perhaps every year individually as well.

 

5. Was he ever the best worker in his class (sex or weight)? Was he ever one of the top workers in his class?

 

I think anyone who paid attention to the AWA would have regarded him as the best in his weight class perhaps from the moment he debuted all the way through til 86. For his body type he was an athlete of a different order than anything that was seen at the time. Guys like Bundy and even Andre had some agility but Blackwell was on a different level. His big offense looked impressive, brutal and flashy all at once. He was an extremely good athlete, sort of a precursor to Bam Bam and Vader but with a body type that was more awkward then theirs which in a way makes his work even more impressive. He was also an excellent bumper that built well to his big bumps throughout the course of a match (or even a feud) and sold brilliantly as both a face and a heel. Pre-AWA is tough to say because of the lack of footage, but from 80-86 he was almost certainly the best worker in his weight class cumulatively. In terms of individual years some may put Andre ahead of him for the early years but by 83 I doubt many people would make that argument and no one else is in the discussion.

 

6. How many years did he have as a top worker?

 

Based on the footage we have 80-85 are the years that we can be certain of. One could maybe quibble with the inclusion of 85 on account of Blackwell missing a fair amount of time and I'm not sure how much of his return later in the year is available. On the other hand some of the best matches and performances of his career were in the first part of 85. 80-84 strike me as pretty obvious and inarguable with a multitude of quality matches against a wide variety of opponents.

 

7. Was he a good worker before his prime? Was he a good worker after his prime?

 

It is hard to peg when his prime really begins because of footage issues. The 78 match with Blackjack Mulligan is quite good and gives us a hint that Blackwell was already a very strong worker before he got to the AWA. I've had multiple people in the last week tell me they saw Blackwell in Mid-Atlantic in the mid-70's and he was a good worker there as well. Post-85 Blackwell still had some really good matches against a variety of opponents. He relied more on schtick and less on athleticism but was still good by any measure even against mediocre opponents.

 

8. Did he have a large body of excellent matches? Did he have a excellent matches against a variety of opponents?

 

This depends a lot on what one means by "excellent." If the standard is "MOTYC's" the answer is no. If the standard is matches that could be called great and part of the canon for the 80's and/or the promotion he worked for then I would say Blackwell has a solid body of "excellence," though not a "large body." He is hurt a bit by the fact that many AWA matches from early in his run were JIP and most of his pre-AWA work is unavailable/unseen on tape. He's not Bockwinkel and never was going to be but his best performances were excellent and he was almost always the best guy in the match he was in. The 83 Civic Center match teaming with Adnan v. Baron/Mad Dog is a serious contender for the best taped match in the history of the AWA. His performance in the Cage v. The High Flyers in 84 was incredible. He was also great in the Starrcage main event in 85 and had a hell of a singles match with Masked Superstar in 85 as well. That's scratching the surface really as Blackwell had a variety of quality matches with opponents running the gamut from Col. Debeers to Lawler (in Memphis) to Reed (in St. Louis) to Hansen to Brody to Verne and all points in between. It was more a case of consistent quality than dozens of blow-a-way great matches, but his best stuff is among the best stuff in the history of the promotion.

 

9. Did he ever anchor his promotion(s)?

 

Though some might try and argue against it, I think Blackwell is one of a very small number of wrestlers from the 80's who anchored a promotion without holding the promotions top singles title (or secondary title for that matter) at any point. Looking back at the early 80's you could make the case there wasn't any one true anchor but a grouping of guys that were expected to do well in the top slots around the loop, with Blackwell among them. Still I would say that Bock and then Hogan were the closest things to true anchors until Hogan's departure in late 83. At that point Blackwell effectively became the anchor of the company and it could be argued he remained the anchor until business tanked when he was gone for the Summer of 85. At any rate he dominated the AWA in 84. Drew huge money as one half of the tag team champions with Patera in the front end of the year as a heel. Turned face in a sellout show at the Civic Center and took time off to sell an injury at which point business tanked. He comes back as the top face in the company and business immediately goes up and shoots through the roof with him on top of huge shows all over by years end. I would call being part of the top drawing heel act and the top drawing face act in the same year "anchoring a promotion" without hesitation.

 

10. Was he effective when pushed at the top of cards?

 

Without question. In fact Blackwell was fairly unique in the sense that he was effective pushed at the top against a huge variety of opponents including his singles programs v. Mad Dog, Crusher, Verne, Andre, Hogan, Brody, Adnan, Race, Patera and Superstar as well as his tag programs v. The High Flyers, Mad Dog and friends, Dino and Martel and others. He consistently got over, drew money and got huge reactions regardless of opponent.

 

11. Was he valuable to his promotion before his prime? Was he still valuable to his promotion after his prime?

 

Before his prime he had varying degrees of success as a mid-carder in Mid-Atlantic, Southeastern and the WWWF. He did headline some in the WWWF during both of his stints there though those were primarily on the smaller spot shows (he had one Spectrum main event v. Backlund and some smaller headline matches v. Andre around the loop). He was a somewhat consistent semi-main event guy there and had programs with Ivan Putski, Monsoon, Strongbrow, Bobo Brazil among others. In Mid-Atlantic he had a moderate push teaming with Brute Bernard at one point and he did hold the SECW tag belts twice for the Fullers though neither reign meant much. He appears to have been a solid mid-card/upper mid-card act in Mid-Atlantic for parts of 77-78 as well.

 

Post-prime his health made him incapable of working anything resembling a full load. He did some stints in Central States working all over the card and did have some success in the AWA in 86 where he was still one of the most over acts on the roster, headlining two of the four biggest drawing shows of the year (and the other two were Wrestlerock which was a loaded show and a Salt Lake City show with three title matches including a Ric Flair NWA title match effectively making it a "supercard" of sorts) and being Hansen's best drawing challenger. He was a utility player from that point forward but still got good reactions on the shows.

 

12. Did he have an impact on a number of strong promotional runs?

 

Absolutely. In fact Blackwell had a strong impact on the entire run from 80-84, a very strong over all period for the company. It is arguable - if not likely - that he was the most important heel in the promotion for that entire stretch surpassing even Bockwinkel who was champion for much of that period. He also had great value after his face turn and was a main even level player in St. Louis during a solid run for that town.

 

13. Was he involved in a number of memorable rivalries, feuds or storylines?

 

Yes. Many of the details have already been run down above, but it is worth repeating the fact that Blackwell was involved in several feuds with a variety of wrestlers that did well at the box office. Perhaps more importantly this was almost immediate upon his arrival in the AWA as even his series with Dino Bravo was well placed on the cards and after that he was a consistent top level guy. His on again/off again feuds with Mad Dog and Crusher were solid "go to's" around the loop for almost his entire run. He was clearly the right opponent for both Andre and Hogan when they came in and was consistently paired with them at key points to the point where the term "rivalry" doesn't seem out of place. The High Flyers feud was a huge money maker that the company went to twice with Blackwell teaming with both Adnan and Patera producing memorable matches. His face turn and run against Adnan/Brody was very memorable and something the crowd was clearly ready (and excited) for. The biggest notch in his belt would be the value he had in getting over the need for Mad Dog and Verne to unite for the Super Sunday main event against Blackwell and Adnan - a show that may have been the most financially successful in the history of the promotion. I'm not privy to the details of his run in St. Louis, but he appears to have had lengthy programs v. Hogan, Patera and Race there that would indicate some success with the live crowds in the area.

 

14. Was he effective working on the mic, working storylines or working angles?

 

No question about it. Blackwell was very good on the mic, perhaps one of the more underrated guys from his era. He was excellent at getting across key points of his character or storyline and putting over his opponent at the same time which is something that other talented mic workers weren't always so great at. His promos/skits putting over his girth/power are some of the most entertaining in the history of the AWA. He was also quite good at getting over a storyline during the course of a match and was involved in some key angles. A couple of high points would be the Civic Center tag with Adnan v. Baron/Mad Dog that led to a riot when Blackwell and Adnan attacked Verne post-match (kick starting an angle that would lead to the aforementioned arguable peak show in AWA history) and the great face turn angle in the 84 Battle Royal also in St. Paul. Both angles would rate among the most intense and dramatic in company history and while the wait on the Blackwell return while he sold the injury sustained in the Battle Royal was brutal for business, both were ultimately financially successful.

 

15. Did he play his role(s) effectively during his career?

 

Definitely. In particular he was excellent at getting over his girth as a weapon but without coming across as a blubbering clown. His showmanship in the ring was really impressive as he was very good at milking the big bumps and big spots. He was very good at staying dangerous and vulnerable which is a fine line for big men. He was also excellent during the period he was paired with Adnan as the traitor to his country who sold out for money. His babyface turn was extremely effective and got over massive largely as a result of Blackwell's personality and his ability to sell a beating. Blackwell played multiple roles and played all of them quite well.

 

16. What titles and tournaments did he win? What was the importance of the reigns?

 

Blackwell held very few titles over the course of his career. By far the most important was his AWA tag title run with Ken Patera which was extremely important to the promotion, carrying it at the box office in the wake of the company losing their biggest singles star. He was a two time co-holder of the Southeastern Championship Wrestling tag belts though it seems as though the reigns meant little. He was also a two time winner of the Missouri Title in St. Louis. Neither of his reigns appear to have meant all that much, but it is worth noting that that title was reserved almost exclusively for top level stars (http://www.wrestling-titles.com/us/mo/mo-h.html).

 

17. Did he win many honors and awards?

 

No, though it could easily be argued that this was as a result of when and where he worked.

 

18. Did he get mainstream exposure due to his wrestling fame? Did he get a heavily featured by the wrestling media?

 

Like most of the AWA guys from the period he got some local mainstream exposure, though probably not to the degree of a guy like Verne or Hogan. On a national level he did not. I don't know how well covered he was by PWI or their affiliated mags, but from what I know of PWI, the AWA wasn't really their bread and butter.

 

19. Was he a top tag team wrestler?

 

Absolutely. Blackwell is one of the more unheralded tag workers of all time. His tag team with Adnan (who was by no measure a good worker) was quite good at building heat, working an angle, and taking big paybacks from the babyfaces. The Patera version of the Sheiks was just as good at this with more polished heat sections. Blackwell carried the load with both of those teams, usually with his impressive offensive spots and his dynamic bumping and selling which he seemed to really excel at in a tag environment. Even his makeshift units with guys like John Studd and King Kong Bundy produced quality matches regardless of opponent largely on the strength of Blackwell's efforts. Blackwell has multiple memorable and great tag matches to his credit, including some of the top matches in the history of the AWA. It also should be reiterated that Blackwell's teams were massive draws at the box office - something that cannot be said of many other quality teams from that era.

 

20. Was he innovative?

 

He was certainly one of the first really athletic big men and to my recollection is the only non-luchador big man who carried so much weight in such a small frame while still being able to hit visually impressive spots/bumps. Not sure "innovative" is the right word for that though, even if he was sort of a "first" in that regard.

 

21. Was he influential?

 

I would say "no." It may be notable that he was such a big bumping and athletic big man. Andre could do that sort of stuff before him but he packaged it differently. When you see someone like Vader, Bam Bam or even Yoko hitting big athletic spots or taking big bumps it certainly looks more Jerry Blackwell than it does Andre. Having said that I'm not sure any of them would cite Jerry as their influence.

 

22. Did he make the people and workers around him better?

 

Definitely yes. For much of his AWA run he was paired off against older and/or limited wrestlers and he made it work every time. Blackwell had the unique ability to make questionable looking offense look brutal or effective with his bumping and selling (while maintaining his credibility as a bruiser) which was of huge value when paired off against wrestlers like Crusher or Baron Von Raschke. It is easy to underestimate how hated Adnan was, but it is also clear the immense value Blackwell brought as a tag team partner and member of his stable. It is also worth noting that Ken Patera had his last run of significance teaming with Blackwell in an extremely effective, money drawing and solid in ring team. Even late in his career he was unusually good carrying weak wrestlers to watchable/quality matches given his increasingly obvious physical limitations and health problems.

 

23. Did he do what was best for the promotion? Did he show a commitment to wrestling?

 

I know of nothing to indicate that Blackwell was unprofessional. He did seem to miss a fair number of shows over the years, but that was likely health related and it is notable that his push was never effected in any way. Despite never getting a singles title during his AWA run he was consistently pushed at the top of the cards and seemed to understand that he had more value in that respect than he would as a major title holder. Perhaps he could be criticized for allowing his health to slip so quickly and at such a relatively young age, but his gimmick was predicated on being a big man.

 

24. Is there any reason to believe that he was better or worse than he appeared?

 

I think it is almost indisputable that Blackwell is underrated in almost every respect and I think the evidence reflects that. I also think the evidence suggests that he was better than he may have appeared. Because of his health and weight he had a relatively short career by the standards of the time. Because of the fact that he never held a singles title, and was not an old guard AWA figure his contributions are easier to dismiss or even forget for those who were not fans of the AWA. Finally the AWA of Blackwell's era is a promotion/territory that is not as heavily explored as others.

[kjh]

Ugh, at Bruce Mitchell talking on his Torch radio show about how Big Daddy killed the British wrestling scene by being pushed on top for too long and left people with a sour taste in their mouths. It was a lot more complicated than that and had a lot to do with how ITV handled wrestling in the late 1980s (after World Of Sport was taken off the air, wrestling had its own show, but the time slot changed on a regular basis and eventually was axed even though it still drew pretty well) and the exposure of American wrestling in the market during that time period. Also, if you talk to casual fans from that era about British wrestling they often recall Daddy with fondness. I'm not the biggest Daddy backer for the HOF, but it's bad when a voter in a particular region shows such a biased understanding of the history of that territory.

[Loss]

Everything with him is through a Jim Herd/Eric Bischoff/Hulk Hogan-tried-to-kill-my-hero lens.

[KrisZ]

Meltz buried Cien Caras as a HOFer last night saying that he was never a HOF guy at any time of his career.

[kjh]

Konnan on the other hand...