JerryvonKramer Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 If you do find figures for Patera, it might also be worth noting them for Greg Valentine too. If only as a benchmark. Is Patera more deserving than Valentine? Is the case stronger than it is for Valentine? I think that's a reasonably interesting question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButchReedMark Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 A few things: Big Daddy - World of Sport had something like 30 million viewers in the 70s. Christ, it was nowhere near that. The only normal TV show to hit the 30m mark was the christmas Eastenders in 1986. The only sporting event to hit the 30m mark was the 1966 World Cup Final. According to any BARB and BFI rating stuff I've found they never even hit 20m. I have heard that they got something like 18m on a Cup Final day but I'm not too believing of that, to be honest. 70s? http://www.bfi.org.uk/features/mostwatched/1970s.html Perhaps there is a bias against listing wrestling. John I don';t get your point. I've had a drink so you'll have to spell it out. If you're referring to him saying 70's and me pulling 80's and 60's out of my arse, that's because I was referring to all time. And the wrestling segment of World of Sport never ever got near the 30m originally claimed. The Joint Promotions stuff was an hour segment on a 4 hour show, and it never approached ratings people tend to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 I was offering a link to support you to make it clear to the person you were responding to that he was wrong. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 The whole Messiah angle in the Bible is pretty epic. They teased his coming for over 2000 years, pretty massive build. So well booked that whole deal. Matthew was running Israel at that time with Mark, Luke and John on the committee. They teased a heel turn when he threw those tables over. It was probably one of the best booked babyface runs of all time. Jesus had fantastic promo skills, real calm delivery and a flair for extended metaphors. And the crowd popped crazy for the miracles. He had some great heels to work with in that territory as well. From early in his career against Herod right up to the end against Pilate. Judas was a pretty great heel too. Paul was the head booker. Heck, no one on the Booking Committee ever *met* Jesus, and instead booked a promotion around a guy who was already dead. Think of it: imagine Russo running a promotion based on Bruno... *now*. Us not even having Bruno matches to watch on tape, and only being able to talk about his matches. Wait... it gets better: Creative never even saw any of those matches either, haven't talked to Bruno, and may or may not have even talked to anyone who ever actually saw a Bruno match. They're basing their storylines on second, third, fortieth hand info. And putting Butts In The Seats for people just to talk aout Bruno matches, not actually watch Bruno. Paul and the Booking Committee were fucking geniuses. And lucky Jesus wasn't around so that they could keep all the action to themselves, or have to worry about Jesus wondering why they were building massive promotion up when his own teachings were about moving away from massive promotions and that God was wherever you were? PAUL: "Wait... what's this nonsense? How are we going to get asses in the seats if everyone stays at home to get in touch with God? How are we going to build up the business when all the rival promotions are drawing big crowds into their temples, raking in the gold? We need their asses in the arena listening to us. Pass the work around the rest of Creative: low key on that 'God Is Where You Are' nonsense in future scripts. Make sure to include stuff about church elders and the Pope and helping us spread the word with donations." JESUS: "I'm not so sure if I like the sound of that. That's not really what I'm preaching..." PAUL: "Look... We know what the marks want. You're over. We put the belt on you. Be happy with that. Don't make us look at any of those other Messiah claimants out there. We can put your ass back out in the dessert if you keep this stuff up." And no... I'm not insulting Jesus there. I just really loath Paul as a douchbag booker. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 I had a little lol at that. On World of Sport, I was way off base there. I think my source was actually a Big Daddy fansite. Being from the UK myself, I should have questioned that figure as being ridiculously inflated. The real figure seems like AT PEAK at 12 million maximum. Which is still a pretty massive audience here FOR WRESTLING. It's also a tough call on how much the wrestling itself was attracting because it had other sport around it. You're picking up a lot of sports fans there -- the same people who would have watched Grandstand when it was on -- who tune in regardless of what sport it is. I would question whether the UK is / was in the top 5 wrestling markets in the world. The only time I'd argue it was massively over here was in 1991-2 sort of time, and even then by 1993 MOST of those kids had lost interest. I have a friend who actually went to Summerslam 92 who had stopped watching by Summerslam 93. The drop off was pretty sudden and steep. Someone like me who was a proper wrestling fan had to push it underground because it had serious "uncool" stigma (and still does). I've made the argument many times, but WWF was like a fad here -- like Yo Yos or roller skates. I don't believe it reached those levels again during the Monday Night Wars, although for a generation of younger kids they'd have casually watched at least some of the Austin or Rock runs. That's really it though. My impression of Big Daddy's run is similar. That it was another here today, gone tomorrow fad only for the generation older than me (I'm 29). I'm not convinced there is a proper "tradition" of wrestling here. Look at Regal's career, he went to Germany pretty quickly. The UK as a wrestling market is probably less important than, say, the state of Texas. Do you think I'm pushing that argument too hard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 So, not a great sampling of his work but I watched several Big Daddy matches when I was up watching U.K. stuff on Youtube and I would really like to be pointed to a match from Big Daddy that wasn't a drizzling pile of shit please. The ones I watched all seemed to be him pushing another fat guy out of the ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 So, not a great sampling of his work but I watched several Big Daddy matches when I was up watching U.K. stuff on Youtube and I would really like to be pointed to a match from Big Daddy that wasn't a drizzling pile of shit please. The ones I watched all seemed to be him pushing another fat guy out of the ring. I'm not going to call any of it good but there are some '70s matches when he was still a heel teaming with Haystacks. There's also a face vs. face match from I think '78 or '79, shortly after he turned babyface, against John Elijah. It isn't good but is actually wrestled as a straight match and not a belly-bump routine. As for babyface Daddy against heels, literally the only match where sells a single move is the Wembley Arena match with Haystacks, where he collides with the referee and allows Haystacks to stomp away at him for like 20 seconds before the inevitable comeback. For me, I have to go with Yohe's post at Classics. Daddy was such a putrid, awful, and in my view destructive worker (and yes, as Bix implied, worse than Haystacks) that I could never bring myself to vote for him. I would like the first WOS inductee to be someone who represents the style, and Daddy is not it. Walton could be it. Mick McManus was almost as famous as Daddy, was a better worker, and also has some minor positives for being one of the main Joint Promotions bookers in the '70s. I wouldn't vote for Saint but I can at least see the points in his favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 I think I'm good on watching Big Daddy then. I have to be honest. I started on Youtube watching Johnny Saint. He's good and entertaining but I quickly found Jim Breaks to be a much more compelling character and kind of slided over to watching his matches. From my 3 or 4 days, I don't see the case for Saint. He's good but he feels like a popular secondary face in a secondary division. It feels like people like him but they aren't there solely because Saint is wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 I know Will has a ton of projects and there's no chance of this getting on the list before next year's HOF (i.e. release in say March so a lot of voters had time to watch it), but a strong say 10-15 Disc (if there's enough footage) British comp is something that could have a lot of impact. 30 disc is too much for people to weigh through. 5 discs might not be enough, depending on match length. But a good 10 disc or so set might give a good overview. It would have to include the "best" representative stuff of Daddy and Haystacks as well to put those guys in context, and not totally sandbag them. If not Will, someone who does sets akin to Will. Get it to Dave, and ask Dave to circulate the e-mail address of the creator to potential British HOF Voters to track it down. I don't suggest doing it for free, and would probably recommend that Dave *not* send it to any voters who are in the business because you don't want some WWE'er to pass it along to McDevitt. Anyway, I think that people like Breaks and McManus aren't on the radar for voters. FWIW: I didn't vote for anyone British as I just don't feel knowledable enough about it yet. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 I've found the British style fascinating so far. I've just been jumping around on that Youtube channel and watching away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Re Big Daddy - I like him myself, atleast in small doses. Think his act works better in tags whear he can just come in and clean house at the end. Rollerball Mark Rocco & Banger Tony Walsh vs Big Daddy & Kid Chocolate is a fun example Re Saint - Watched his match vs Steve Grey that's up on that youtube channel last night (the most recent match uploaded so easy to find). Saint is the World LW champ, Grey is the British LW champ, Grey beat him a few months earlier in a non title match, this is the re-match & also non title, Grey will most likely get a world title shot if he wins again, simple but cool little story. Action was great, the 1st round built around Grey doing a ton of crazy fast paced reversals trying to escape an arm bar only to be locked back in was awesome, the kind of stuff you watch and are shocked no one's ripped off. Saint's a guy with a rep for being kinda samey after a while which I think is a little unfair so I also dug that this showed him in a diffrent role then he usually plays as he was subtel heel here. Didn't do anything evil or rulebreaking but he was the less flashy, more agressive, older higher ranked star going against the younger, faster undedog so he wasn't cheered quite as much and even got a few seconds of boos when he turned up the roughness a little later in the match. I know Will has a ton of projects and there's no chance of this getting on the list before next year's HOF (i.e. release in say March so a lot of voters had time to watch it), but a strong say 10-15 Disc (if there's enough footage) British comp is something that could have a lot of impact. Unless something's changed (I haven't paid attention in a while) there were always plans to do a DVDVR 80's Wos/Europe set eventually I think. Course, I actually like the 70's stuff slightly better then the 80's so that would leave a lot of great stuff out but still... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 I agree that the best WoS stuff is from the 70's, but also think an 80's Set could at least help people become more acclimated with the style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragemaster Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 So, not a great sampling of his work but I watched several Big Daddy matches when I was up watching U.K. stuff on Youtube and I would really like to be pointed to a match from Big Daddy that wasn't a drizzling pile of shit please. The ones I watched all seemed to be him pushing another fat guy out of the ring. 1979 Big Daddy vs Mighty John Quinn one of the greatest matches of all time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 On the subject of WoS, the assortment of random dudes that passed through is pretty interesting. Al Hayes, Kamala working as Missisipi Mauler, Akira Maeda, Satoru Sayama, Liger, Masakatu Funaki, Owen Hart, Smith Hart, Ross Hart & Bret Hart, etc.. Searching around saw Sheik Adnan Alkaissy worked over thear. Gonna have to check out that match soon. Also saw that Kamala wrestled Big Daddy but sadly i've had zero luck finding that match online so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSR Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 I know Will has a ton of projects and there's no chance of this getting on the list before next year's HOF (i.e. release in say March so a lot of voters had time to watch it), but a strong say 10-15 Disc (if there's enough footage) British comp is something that could have a lot of impact. 30 disc is too much for people to weigh through. 5 discs might not be enough, depending on match length. But a good 10 disc or so set might give a good overview. It would have to include the "best" representative stuff of Daddy and Haystacks as well to put those guys in context, and not totally sandbag them. If not Will, someone who does sets akin to Will. Get it to Dave, and ask Dave to circulate the e-mail address of the creator to potential British HOF Voters to track it down. I don't suggest doing it for free, and would probably recommend that Dave *not* send it to any voters who are in the business because you don't want some WWE'er to pass it along to McDevitt. Anyway, I think that people like Breaks and McManus aren't on the radar for voters. FWIW: I didn't vote for anyone British as I just don't feel knowledable enough about it yet. John There was a movement on the RIM boards about 3 years ago of trying to push the case of Mark Rocco. I knocked the following comp out over a weekend, and the idea was to try and get it out to as many voters as possible. No idea how many people saw it in the end (doubt many to be honest), but I personally sent a copy to Cornette (aswell as a couple of discs of Jim Breaks stuff as I thought he would get a kick out of him). A comp on the best stuff of Rocco, Saint, Breaks, McManus, Grey, Jones etc would be a good idea, the only thing is I don't know how much (if any) of Pallo is out there, there is nothing that stands out for Nagasaki, pretty much ditto with Daddy and Haystacks (although I haven't seen it in years, I remember a passable match that he had with Maeda). MARK ROCCO 'THE WORLD OF SPORT YEARS' (3 discs) Mark Rocco vs Kung Fu (02.04.76) Mark Rocco vs Marty Jones (07.10.76) Mark Rocco vs Leon Fortuna (06.05.78) Mark Rocco vs Clive Myers (06.05.78) Mark Rocco vs Marty Jones (08.05.78) Mark Rocco vs Alan Dennison (10.11.78) Mark Rocco vs Steve Grey (10.11.78) Mark Rocco vs Chris Adams (06.12.79) Mark Rocco & Banger Walsh vs Big Daddy & Kid Chocolate (02.05.80) Mark Rocco vs Pete Roberts (05.28.80) Mark Rocco vs Dynamite Kid (11.26.80) Mark Rocco vs Sammy Lee (03.31.81) Mark Rocco vs King Benn (07.15.81) Mark Rocco vs Chris Adams (09.29.81) Mark Rocco vs Dynamite Kid (11.18.81) Mark Rocco vs Dynamite Kid (11.30.81) Mark Rocco vs Steve McHoy (02.17.82) Mark Rocco vs Chic Cullen (12.27.86) Mark Rocco vs Fuji Yamada (04.28.87) Mark Rocco & Wayne Bridges vs Kendo Nagasaki & Shane Stevens (03.16.88) MARK ROCCO 'THE SCREENSPORT YEARS' Mark Rocco interview (10.19.85) Mark Rocco vs Kung Fu (10.19.85) Mark Rocco vs Chic Cullen (10.19.85) Mark Rocco interview (11.22.85) Mark Rocco interrupts a Kung Fu & Chic Cullen interview (11.22.85) Mark Rocco & Rocky Moran vs Mal Sanders & Johnny Saint (11.22.85) Mark Rocco interview (01.18.86) Mark Rocco interrupts a Jon Wilkie interview (03.01.86) Mark Rocco interview (03.01.86) Mark Rocco vs Jamaica Kid (03.01.86) Mark Rocco interview (05.31.86) Mark Rocco vs Brian Maxine (05.31.86) Battle Royal (05.31.86) Mark Rocco interview (08.03.86) Mark Rocco vs Mickey Gold (08.03.86) Mark Rocco vs Steve Fury (08.03.86) Mark Rocco vs Pat Barrett (08.03.86) Mark Rocco interview (09.27.86) MARK ROCCO 'THE NEW JAPAN YEARS' (3 discs) Black Tiger vs Gran Hamada (05.06.82) Black Tiger vs Tiger Mask (05.26.82) Black Tiger & Pete Roberts vs Tiger Mask & Tatsumi Fujinami (08.27.82) Black Tiger vs Tiger Mask (09.21.82) Black Tiger vs Kuniaki Kobayashi (01.20.83) Black Tiger & Carlos Estrada vs Tiger Mask & Kantaro Hoshino (01.28.83) Black Tiger vs Tiger Mask (02.07.83) Black Tiger vs Cobra (01.01.84) Black Tiger & Cobra vs Dynamite Kid & Davey Boy Smith (01.84) Black Tiger vs Cobra (10.12.84) Black Tiger vs Cobra (10.19.84) Black Tiger vs Cobra (11.01.84) Black Tiger vs Cobra (01.03.86) Black Tiger vs Shiro Koshinaka (01.10.86) Black Tiger vs Keichi Yamada (01.17.86) Black Tiger & Kevin Von Erich & Johnny Mantell vs Antonio Inoki & Tatsumi Fujinami & Cobra (02.02.86) Black Tiger vs Nobuhiko Takada (08.29.86) Black Tiger vs Shiro Koshinaka (09.12.86) Black Tiger & Dick Murdoch vs Shiro Koshinaka & Tatsumi Fujinami (04.20.87) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Found this great collection of Rings results on Classics posted by Steve Yohe: http://wrestlingclassics.com/cgi-bin/.ubbc...ic;f=7;t=000441 Interesting figures. I think in some ways it helps the case for Volk Han (who I am higher on than most) and in other ways it hurts him. It helps him from the perspective that RINGS attendance figures are WAY better than I had remembered. He was also a very good drawing opponent for Maeda and for most of his run he appeared to be positioned as the number 2 guy under Maeda. The big negative is that he was clearly never the ace, as Tamura looks to have taken over for Maeda in some respects in that regard. He was also down the card on the two biggest cards in the history of the promotion. Kind of a random thing to review but when I saw it I figured I'd take a look around. Han interests me as a candidate more than most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 I'd split it into three classes for Han: * was he the Ace of the promtion * was he the top gaijin of the promotion * was he pushed at the #1 guy in the promotion On the first, of course not. Maeda was the Ace of the promotion when he was healthy, and Tamura & Yamamoto sort of had a competition to figure out who was the next Ace as Maeda wound down due to the injuries. It was less clean than Jumbo --> Misawa since there was at least the illusion of Misawa being the Ace when Jumbo went down because Misawa had the TC, though he really hadn't yet fully staked his claim to Acedom. On the second, of course he was. Since other natives came in and got pushes leading to big matches, it gets a little murky at times. But Volk pretty consistently was the #1 gaijin for a large chunk of his time in Rings. Years. The second is a little trickier. Ring was worked-shoot, so people other than the Ace get pushed up to being "#1". With Volk, there was this winning streak: May 25, 1996 - Ekaterinburg, Russia Volk Han Over Hans Nyman June 29, 1996 - Tokyo Bay N K Hall Volk Han Over Mitsuya Nagai July 16, 1996 - Osaka Volk Han Over Tsuyoshi Kousaka (Cuts) Aug. 24, 1996 - Tokyo Ariake Coliseum Volk Han Over Tsuyoshi Kousaka Sept. 25, 1996 - Sapporo Nakajima Sports Center Volk Han Over Kiyoshi Tamura (Reverse Armlock 10:32) Oct. 25, 1996 - Nagoya Aiichi Gym Volk Han Over Masayuki Naruse Nov. 22, 1996 - Osaka Castle Hall Battle Dimension 96 Tournament Quarter Finals: Volk Han Over Tsuyoshi Kousaka Dec. 19, 1996 - Fukuoka International Center Battle Dimension 96 Tournament Semi-Final: Volk Han Over Bitsadze Tariel Jan. 22, 1997 - Toyko Budokan Hall Battle Dimension 96 Tournament Final Volk Han Over Kiyoshi Tamura (Achilles Tendon 12:36) April 22, 1997 - Osaka Furitsu Gym Volk Han Over Akira Maeda May 23, 1997 - Sendai Volk Han Over Joop Kasteel Aug. 13, 1997 - Kagoshima Yoshihisa Yamamoto Over Volk Han (Tko 11:30) Sept. 26, 1997 - Sapporo Nakajima Sports Center Kiyoshi Tamura Over Volk Han (Armbar 12:48) He pretty much was pushed to #1 by the time of the Battle Dimension 96 Final, confirmed when he beat Maeda. In a sense he was playing Hansen here: Volk was heated up to put over Yamamoto and Tamura. Tamura would then go on the streak to confirm he was the new ace in Battle Dimension 96: take out Maeda in the SF before winning the Final, with Maeda-Volk as the symbolic 3rd place match. It's an interesting push over a year. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling_Obs...er_Hall_of_Fame Ok, so i'm going through the wiki page of all the people in the Observer HOF and I can't find anyone from the Matsunaga family listed. WTF?????????? JDW or someone please tell me that either I missed it or whoever put the wiki page together forgot to include them, my brain can't possibly comprehend how the Matsunaga's (Takasi if no one else), the founders & promoters of AJW don't make the cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 I'm pretty sure one of the Matsunaga brothers went in. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 I'm pretty sure one of the Matsunaga brothers went in. John K, went and searched through the 09 HOF issue whear Dave runs down the entire list (for some reason he didn't do it in the 2010 issue) and no, the Matsunaga's really aren't in. .......my mind's legit blown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 I'm wondering if it's just a name that fell off. Someone else did one year and I pointed it out to him. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 I think they're an oversight, as I've never seen them included in the rundown of inductees over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Wow... that would be a screw up. I'll have to mention it to him... John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 I emailed him asking what was up with that the other day but not holding my breath that i'll get a response. On a diffrent subject, here's a great site with lots of info on the British Wrestling sceen http://www.johnlisterwriting.com/itvwrestling/ Few things to highlight of interest due to some of the points that have come up in this thread Title history page http://www.johnlisterwriting.com/itvwrestling/titles.html Johnny Saint with 9 World Lightweight title reigns (essentially dominating it Flair style for a decade), 2 European Lightweight reigns and 1 British Lightweight title reign. TV ratings overview http://www.johnlisterwriting.com/itvwrestling/ratings.html "BEWARE: Too Much Showmanship Could Ruin Wrestling by Kent Walton" From 1979 http://www.johnlisterwriting.com/itvwrestl...article791.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 I didn't do a count, but Breaks looks to have had more titles than Saint. Marty Jones had a shit load too and in my view was probably the best of the name workers from England. Both should be on the ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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