When Big men get squashed

[JerryvonKramer]

This has always been something I've found a bit problematic. I've just watched Uncensored 96 where Big Show beats Loch Ness in less than 5 minutes. I can think of examples in the past when people like One Man Gang, Uncle Elmer and Sid (vs. El Gigante) have had similar squashes.

 

I know the practical reasons for this: either the guy is on his way out, as in the case of Loch Ness or Sid, or the guy is so fat that he can't go more than 5 minutes without getting blown up.

 

But what is the KAYFABE LOGIC of such losses? I mean I can't think of anything that breaks the suspension of disbelief more than that. The worst examples are generally big men who are built to face Hogan AFTER the Hogan match. Both in 80s WWF and around 95-6 in WCW when most of the Dungeon of Doom were such big men, you have these guys who were meant to be a massive threat only a few months ago getting squashed.

 

How is the fan meant to believe that Shark or Akeem the African Dream or whoever has gone from being this monster heel to basically a fat jobber in the space of a couple of months?

 

It's something I've always had a problem with. You can throw Viscera and to an extent Mark Henry in there too. I never like to see a big man beaten easily. Why? Because it highlights the fact that a big man is only a threat or a monster when he's receiving a push. This shouldn't be the case. A guy like Viscera should have been a legit threat even if he was hanging round the mid-card doing nothing.

 

Anyone got any further thoughts on this?

[Victator]

Viscera was rarely squashed, regardless of his push.

[El-P]

The answer would be that kayfaybe doesn't make sense.

 

And yes, it annoyed the hell out of me when I was a teenager. Like when a mid-card face turns mid-card heel,he doesn't beat anyone anymore with his finisher. All of a sudden, it lost all efficiency against anyone above jobber status. There are tons of stuff like these.

[Loss]

I've never thought size had anything to do with believability. Skill does. It's why I buy Rey as a threat more than I buy, say, Snitsky as a threat.

[Coffey]

Eh, it's a work. Size should matter. I remember how unbelievable I always felt it was when Rey won (using Loss' example).

 

I think it's OK when it's two monster running into each other and one has to be better (because he's getting the push). But there's a right way and a wrong way to do it. Hogan/Warrior I think was the right way. Goldberg/Wraith was the wrong way. You don't want it to completely kill the credibility of either man.

[Matt D]

I could buy Spike as a giantkiller because his finisher was hit out of nowhere and could theoretically knock a guy out. I buy the Giant squashing Loch Ness because The Giant is huge too.

 

I don't think this happens in unbelievable ways all that much. Even on WCW SN, Roadblock would always be a tough opponent for a bigger name (that happened to be smalleR).

[Jingus]

I've never thought size had anything to do with believability. Skill does. It's why I buy Rey as a threat more than I buy, say, Snitsky as a threat.

Ditto. And besides, size doesn't always triumph even in a shoot. Just look at Royce Gracie slaughtering his way through a bunch of much larger opponents in early UFC, for one example.

[smkelly]

Really? That's, uh, interesting, Loss.

[Dooley]

I've never thought size had anything to do with believability. Skill does. It's why I buy Rey as a threat more than I buy, say, Snitsky as a threat.

While I find Rey's matches fun to watch, I have a harder time buying him as a "threat" than Snitsky. Let's say you inadvertently offend someone in a bar. Are you hoping he looks more like Rey or Snitsky?

 

Or to continue with Jingus' UFC example, would you rather run into Urijah Faber or Heath Herring in a dark alley? Sure Faber's more skilled, but Heath is a foot taller and hundred pounds heavier.

 

Big guys don't have to be as skilled, in a work or a shoot. Because when they hit you, they hit you that much harder and it hurts that much more.

[NintendoLogic]

I can buy Rey more as someone who can beat you in a wrestling match. I can buy Snitsky more as someone who can kick your ass.

 

Of course, that could be just the difference in how the two men are booked. Has Rey ever convincingly beaten anyone? And Taz certainly had more of a badass aura than, say, Giant Baba.

[smkelly]

Oh, Rey could hand the majority of the members here their asses in a real fight. Snitsky could probably kill all of us in a real fight.

[Jingus]

And Taz certainly had more of a badass aura than, say, Giant Baba.

Great call. Wrestling has always had this insane "size equals toughness" mindset, and it's just not true.

 

Let's imagine a hypothetical scenario. I kidnapped you into a time machine, took you back to 1985, put a gun to your head and said "Okay, you have to fight one of these two people". Standing there are Andre the Giant and the Dynamite Kid. Which one would you rather fight? Personally, I'd go with Andre in a heartbeat. At least I could attempt a hint-n-run strategy on him, landing strikes to his knees and then backing off and looking for another opening. You know, stuff out of the old Sakuraba playbook. I'd probably lose (using myself was probably a bad idea, considering that I've got cerebral freakin' palsy) but I might have some small percentage of a chance at getting in a lucky shot on the big guy. If I was in there with Dynamite, I'd pretty much just resign myself to a severe asskicking and hope that it ended quickly, because I can't possibly win a fight against a guy like that. Size is great to have, but it's nothing without technique and speed.

[Dooley]

And Taz certainly had more of a badass aura than, say, Giant Baba.

Great call. Wrestling has always had this insane "size equals toughness" mindset, and it's just not true.

 

Let's imagine a hypothetical scenario. I kidnapped you into a time machine, took you back to 1985, put a gun to your head and said "Okay, you have to fight one of these two people". Standing there are Andre the Giant and the Dynamite Kid. Which one would you rather fight? Personally, I'd go with Andre in a heartbeat. At least I could attempt a hint-n-run strategy on him, landing strikes to his knees and then backing off and looking for another opening. You know, stuff out of the old Sakuraba playbook. I'd probably lose (using myself was probably a bad idea, considering that I've got cerebral freakin' palsy) but I might have some small percentage of a chance at getting in a lucky shot on the big guy. If I was in there with Dynamite, I'd pretty much just resign myself to a severe asskicking and hope that it ended quickly, because I can't possibly win a fight against a guy like that. Size is great to have, but it's nothing without technique and speed.

 

It's not just pro wrestling. There's a reason that Olympic martial arts, amateur wrestling, boxing and MMA have weight classes.

 

As for the Andre-DK scenario, if we're talking prime Andre I will always take my chances with DK. But neither would be on my to-do list.

[Mad Dog]

In MMA, Genki Sudo tapped Butterbean in a match. Sudo weighs 155 lbs. when he fights. Butterbean weighs around 400 lbs.

[Dooley]

Butterbean also lost a fight because he literally fell over and couldn't get back up.

 

[smkelly]

And Taz certainly had more of a badass aura than, say, Giant Baba.

Great call. Wrestling has always had this insane "size equals toughness" mindset, and it's just not true.

Depends on what 'kind' of toughness you're referring to, actually. Nash has to be pretty tough considering the shape his knees - rest of his body - is in. Andre worked well past the point that medical doctors would consider 'safe'. Same for the Big Show too. Undertaker is a tough dude too. The injuries those men have sustained end careers in other sports.

 

Let's imagine a hypothetical scenario. I kidnapped you into a time machine, took you back to 1985, put a gun to your head and said "Okay, you have to fight one of these two people". Standing there are Andre the Giant and the Dynamite Kid. Which one would you rather fight? Personally, I'd go with Andre in a heartbeat. At least I could attempt a hint-n-run strategy on him, landing strikes to his knees and then backing off and looking for another opening. You know, stuff out of the old Sakuraba playbook. I'd probably lose (using myself was probably a bad idea, considering that I've got cerebral freakin' palsy) but I might have some small percentage of a chance at getting in a lucky shot on the big guy. If I was in there with Dynamite, I'd pretty much just resign myself to a severe asskicking and hope that it ended quickly, because I can't possibly win a fight against a guy like that. Size is great to have, but it's nothing without technique and speed.

The thing with size is that if the man with size gets ahold of someone that has speed and technique on their side, the fight will likely end with the smaller guy getting popped like a pimple. That hasn't always been the case, but in a non-controlled environment, I have seldom seen a smaller man beat a much larger man in any kind of physical fight.

 

Take the fight between Akebono and Royce Gracie. Akebono played to the strengths of Gracie rather than his own. Had the bout been fought differently, Brazilian jiu-jitsu master or not, the Yokozuna's size alone would make the fight a relative no-contest. What is the methodology of jiu-jitsu -- "an art of weaponless fighting employing holds, throws, and paralyzing blows to subdue or disable an opponent." Gracie could only use one of the building blocks that jiu-jitsu is all about, and which is how he won, by bending Akebono's arm at an awkward angle. And if this were a 'street fight' and not held under the scrutiny of the viewers in attendance, the people at home, and politicians - let alone the official - I doubt Akebono would have submitted, even if it meant his arm being broken - which has happened before, like when Tim Sylvia's arm was broken by Frank Mir.

 

I did a Google search for the video I saw on television about six months ago -- alas, no find.

Backstory: A large man in Arizona was having a stand-off with police...with his infant child in a car-seat...on the expressway. A police German shepherd was released upon the man, and a bunch of cops assisted in apprehending the man. It took the combined strength of all of the officers and the dog eviscerating the man's arm to subdue him. It was his size and strength that kept him from being taken down single-handily by the shepherd, whose bite strength is strong enough to render solid unbroken bones to dust (like 1,500 PSI) -- let alone the posse of police officers. Now had the man been the size of Royce Gracie (with or without the fighting skills) - the duration of the event would have been much shorter and probably deadly.

 

And to answer your hypothetical --

 

I'd personal try my luck against Billington before engaging Andre in close-quarter combat. As I have speed and technique on my side too. Not as much speed, but I've never heard of Dyno being any kind of colored belt in any kind of martial arts, whereas I am. I know one thing, Dyno would ultimately win the fight because of his strength and speed advantage over me, but he'd know he had been in one afterwards.

 

The thing with Andre is simple. If you can't immobilize a giant, the giant immobilizes you. It is all too easy to say, "I'd take his legs apart." But it'd be nothing more than sheer luck to land a debilitating injury to one of his tree trunk sized knees. I doubt he'd stand there and allow me to dropkick him in the kneecap. Also, I doubt that if the blow landed as intended, and even if it knocked his leg backward, that it would end the fight. I have enough of a punter's leg to kick his head off if he was down on all fours, but I'd have to get too close to kick him or land any kind of strike, and those strikes alone bring me way too close to a giant that is both in a lot of pain and very fucking angry.

[Jingus]

There's a reason that Olympic martial arts, amateur wrestling, boxing and MMA have weight classes.

Yeah, for the same reasons that they have those super-speed cameras focused on the finish line: because when you compete at the very top level, tiny numbers count.

 

But we're not talking about real competition here. We're talking about rassling. It's storytelling. It's fiction. Nobody complains that Sarah Michelle Gellar beating up David Boreanez in Buffy the Vampire Slayer is unrealistic, despite the fact that David is literally triple Sarah's size. "But that show takes place in a fantasy setting" is the response, to which I reply: and wrestling is supposed to be realistic? We're not protecting the business anymore. It's all a show. Everyone knows it's all a show.

[Victator]

Wrestling adheres to its own reality. The mentality 'Its not real we can do anything" is why it is in the shitter. Rey can't just use eye beams to kill Mark Henry. It has to be logical within the confines of the reality of pro wrestling.

 

If Spider-Man K.O's the Blob and there is no logical (within the confines of their reality) explanation, that is shitty writing.

 

I hated the Spike Dudley shit because it was the same fucking thing every time. Some guy gets kicked in the nuts and hit with the Acid Drop. That happens about the fifth time it comes across as poorly booked bullshit.

[Loss]

I've never thought size had anything to do with believability. Skill does. It's why I buy Rey as a threat more than I buy, say, Snitsky as a threat.

While I find Rey's matches fun to watch, I have a harder time buying him as a "threat" than Snitsky. Let's say you inadvertently offend someone in a bar. Are you hoping he looks more like Rey or Snitsky?

Credibility encompasses a lot of things, and to say it all falls on having the right look is pretty short-sighted. Besides, Rey isn't huge, but he's an incredibly skilled athlete. I'm taller and heavier than Rey. I would imagine most people on this board are. It means nothing.

 

Also, theoretically, wrestling is a sport. The object is to use skill to win, not to maim the opponent. It's just that sometimes, the only way to win is to prevent the other wrestler from winning by hurting him. Wrestling cred and barfighting cred are not synonymous. I don't even like the term "fake fighting" because wrestling is not fighting. It requires a skill set beyond just being "tough". Conditioning, speed, stamina, offense, ability to take a beating and won/loss record all contribute far more to cred in wrestling than size/look. If the opposite is true, it's only because promoters condition fans to think otherwise.

[Loss]

I will also clarify my point by saying I think ignoring size difference when working a match is equally as short-sighted. This is a reason Abyss is hard for me to get into -- he bumps the same for pretty much everyone, and sells way too much. Yes, Snitsky has a strength advantage. That doesn't mean Rey can't beat him. It means Rey has to beat him using a different skill set than he would a smaller opponent. Likewise, it means Snitsky has to keep the pace slow. When you see a match where a smaller guy beats a bigger guy and it takes you out of the moment, you've likely seen a poorly worked match, not a ridiculous concept. I just can't buy into the idea that in a match between two wrestlers, the bigger wrestler should always be the one who goes over.

 

But I have said before and I will say again -- because of his skill set, Rey is one of the most credible guys in the roster. If he wasn't, none of his false finishes would ever get a reaction. They almost always do.

[JerryvonKramer]

I wasn't really saying that a big man always beats a smaller guy, I was saying that in wrestling logic they are ALWAYS presented as a big threat, so by that same logic shouldn't ever be squashed or easily beaten.

 

I don't agree that because Giant is huge, he can beat Loch Ness in less than 3 minutes. That doesn't ring true for me -- not unless Giant was particularly BRUTAL and did something to KO him.

 

It's stupid because not only does it make Loch Ness look like a total chump and a joke, it makes a total mockery of the past 3-4 months of build. And for all of the hype from the commentators who made out like he was a big deal.

 

And who said Viscera never got squashed? I just typed HHH vs. Viscera into google with no specific match in mind because I just KNEW a 2-minute squash from some time or other would come up. And low and behold here it is, first one:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhT8hIjO_jI

 

What's the point of doing that to Viscera? You've buried him as being any sort of legit threat.

 

HHH is THAT much more powerful than him that he can beat him with a few punches and a pedigree.

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I think big men need an element of protection to be honest. If they are going to be booked as legit threats that is.

[Coffey]

I wasn't really saying that a big man always beats a smaller guy, I was saying that in wrestling logic they are ALWAYS presented as a big threat, so by that same logic shouldn't ever be squashed or easily beaten.

On the same note, the smaller guys are portrayed as being underdogs as much (if not more) as the big guys are portrayed as being monsters. Look at our continual Rey Mysterio example: He's a Royal Rumble winner & 3x World Champion but is somehow still the "underdog" when in matches against even midcarders. It is obviously based solely on size in the kayfabe setting.

 

The weight divisions point has already been made but there are some people that will continually point to one or two examples from MMA to defend small guys until the end of time. It always happens. Bottom line is size matters. Anyone that's ever been in a real fist fight can tell you that. You can't use extremes from both sizes. Put two men of equal skill together but have one be bigger. That shit definitely plays.

 

Anyone can be knocked out. Flash KO's happen. Anyone can get caught and get tapped out. But in like a bar fight setting, you're probably not worried about a rear-naked choke or a cross armbar. In a wrestling setting? The idea is that you're in a ring, you can't very well "run" and unless it's the gimmick that the guy can tap someone out (like Taz's gimmick) then the size matters. That's why the Bam Bam Bigelow/TAZ feud in ECW worked!

[smkelly]

To be fair, Viscera got jumped by having a titanium rope kicked into his crotch. And then took a fisticuffs pummeling. But yeah, he was squashed like some early 90s superstar/jobber match.

 

I love Youtube comments.

 

From the HHH/Viscera page:

 

Triple h Is The Best in the world

HHH IS THE BEST

Triple H is the best & That Damn Good! Triple H has been my favorite wrestler forever & will forever be my favorite wrestler!

hhh will live forever

2005 Was the Worst Year For Triple H He Lost Back To Back Three Times To Batista & 2 times to Ric Flair

Here's my problem with how big men are booked:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAvCEbyK8oA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VuFhTUi_9Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbOC6pi-72Y

 

Regarding Show squashing large dudes:

[Jingus]

Put two men of equal skill together but have one be bigger.

That's the important bit. In "who can beat who" wrestling hierarchies, there's guys with a wide range of kayfabe skills. Rey Misterio should have no problem kicking the shit out of Zack Ryder, and the fans would completely believe it and cheer along if Rey squashed Zack in like a minute. Size is always a factor, but some of you guys act like size is the only factor.

[Victator]

In wrestling it is a very big factor. Zack Ryder is not a giant. Even Mighty Wilbur should give Rey a problem for a few minutes until he gets his opening.

 

 

And who said Viscera never got squashed? I just typed HHH vs. Viscera into google with no specific match in mind because I just KNEW a 2-minute squash from some time or other would come up. And low and behold here it is, first one:

You didn't see HHH ambush Viscera?