JerryvonKramer Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 This is more of a question than anything. We all know the basic formulas for singles matches (shine > heat > comeback > finish) and tag matches (shine > face in peril > hot tag> finish). What I'm wondering about is alternative structures. For example, on the All Japan set, few if any of the matches seem to conform to the standard American face vs. heel formula. If anything the structure there, from what I've seen after 4 discs is: Matwork (face dominates) > matwork (heel dominates) > transition to bigger impact moves until nearfall > back to matwork > transition to strikes and high spots > finish There seems to be a new structure for big WWE PPV matches now too, for example HBK vs. Undertaker with a lot of hitting of finishers and false finishes. What are some of the other structures you can identify? For example, is there a different formula when you've got a complete chicken shit hell like Honky Tonk Man? Or I'm thinking about Hogan vs. Flair in 1994 where it seemed like Hogan had 95% of the offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 Or I'm thinking about Hogan vs. Flair in 1994 where it seemed like Hogan had 95% of the offense. That's not a structure, that's Hogan being a cunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kostka Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 There seems to be a new structure for big WWE PPV matches now too, for example HBK vs. Undertaker with a lot of hitting of finishers and false finishes. How is that "new"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 It's "new" in the "the first half doesn't matter squat; it's all about the finishing run" sense. Hence the whole "Modern self-conscious epic" debate... "Mirror": Misawa/Kobashi 10/97. Establish both guys are equal, match pivots on a keyspot. Kobashi/Sasaki and Kobashi/Akiyama are more recent examples: it's meant for big "epic" stages/matches, really. Cena/Batista used it at SummerSlam a few years ago too. Matches often do away with the initial shine to make a big deal out of the first bit of offence from the face. Lawler/Dundee (85? Lawler has an injured eye) is the first to come to mind, MS1/Sangre Chicana is another. Hogan's comeback/finish was a combined routine. Misawa's elongated comeback was similar though there'd often be one or two more near falls after he was definitively back in it/on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 What about Warrior vs. Hogan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 "Mirror": Misawa/Kobashi 10/97. Establish both guys are equal, match pivots on a keyspot. Hard to say they're equal. Kobashi still wouldn't win a big match for over two more years (by one definition) or until 2003 (by another arguably even more reasonable definition). It's a bit like saying Misawa and Kawada were equals because Kawada got a few pins here and there. Even after the Dome win, it's really hard to feel they're equals... I mean... Kawada instantly dropped the straps. Pretty *not* Misawa-like there. :/ John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 I'm not saying the audience saw them as equals, but they worked the match as equals. They even composed their respective control segments spot-for-spot so that they reflected each other. Kobashi doesn't beat Misawa at Budokan in '98 or '99 but he still has way more of the match, he works them as the dominant/"superior"/etc wrestler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 Misawa let a lot of people have more of the match. That was an element of Misawa By Numbers: throw Misawa all over the fucking place, he sucks it up, he beats you. I'm trying to recall Misawa having more of the 10/95 match, and I'm drawing a blank there. He long let Kobashi have his way. In the end, he was stronger and he won. Did it feel like Misawa dominated him in the 4/97 Carny Final match? Seemed like 30 minutes of a Kobashi Match, with your standard Misawa spots of firing back up. I thought even in the 1/97 match that he let Kobashi have loads of the match, maybe even a higher % of it. Had Misawa on the ropes, Misawa certainly tried to create doubt... then Misawa was stronger down the end and planted him. I don't think those two put a great deal of thought into their matches in the "we're going to work as equals for the first time tonight". They really comes across as two guys who had been winging shit for several years, having a key thing or two they wanted to get to in a match, but usually ending up with other folks in their slightly deeper matches. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 A few times in AJW they'd build tag matches around 4 FIP segmens with each person involved taking a turn getting beat down and then going to the finish which I thought was a neat twist on the standard tag formula. By definition I don't think you can call it alternative since it happens on a fairly regular basis but I always found it interesting how tag matches in Japan often end up being one long 1 on 1 segment for the finishing stretch whear the other ppl involved get limited to just breaking up pins and stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 What about Warrior vs. Hogan? Hogan vs. Warrior is actually a very standard match when you break it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Tonight's Smackdown reminded me of an alternative match structure common in the WWE that I absolutely hate: the tag match built around the simultaneous hot tag. How the hell does this make sense even in theory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 I always hated that spot where the face hits one comeback spot and the heel is selling like he's taken as much damage as the face that just took a 10 minute beating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 WWE heel super selling is nothing different than NWA territories super selling, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 I always hated that spot where the face hits one comeback spot and the heel is selling like he's taken as much damage as the face that just took a 10 minute beating. In the same vein, I hate TV matches where they sell like they took a beating after 3 minutes of spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kostka Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Tonight's Smackdown reminded me of an alternative match structure common in the WWE that I absolutely hate: the tag match built around the simultaneous hot tag. How the hell does this make sense even in theory?If a fresh babyface gets tagged in for the first time in a match, and I'm a heel and able, I'm tagging out and getting away from that motherfucker. I know what you mean, though. WWE is usually pretty good in the past decade about working southern style tags. I watched a Finlay/Regal vs Lashley/Batista tag yesterday from 06 and it was your simple-stupid southern style tag where the heels kept Lashley at bay and they built and built with hopespots until Batista finally got the hot tag and they went to the finish (double spears, spinebuster). There are tons of other examples too of WWE doing this well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 What about Warrior vs. Hogan? Hogan vs. Warrior is actually a very standard match when you break it down. Who was working heel then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 What about Warrior vs. Hogan? Hogan vs. Warrior is actually a very standard match when you break it down. Who was working heel then? Hogan was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Tonight's Smackdown reminded me of an alternative match structure common in the WWE that I absolutely hate: the tag match built around the simultaneous hot tag. How the hell does this make sense even in theory? It makes perfect sense in theory - heel teams working Southern tag style tend to make frequent tags anyway, and the guy playing Ricky Morton needs the tag because he's been getting his ass kicked and his partner is fresh. One guy is sticking to the game plan his team has been running the whole match - and is a especially vital now that he's in a slightly vulnerable position - and the other guy just plain needs to get out. Seems logical to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Tonight's Smackdown reminded me of an alternative match structure common in the WWE that I absolutely hate: the tag match built around the simultaneous hot tag. How the hell does this make sense even in theory? It makes perfect sense in theory - heel teams working Southern tag style tend to make frequent tags anyway, and the guy playing Ricky Morton needs the tag because he's been getting his ass kicked and his partner is fresh. One guy is sticking to the game plan his team has been running the whole match - and is a especially vital now that he's in a slightly vulnerable position - and the other guy just plain needs to get out. Seems logical to me. Sure, except for two things. One, as Mad Dog pointed out, the spot is usually preceded by the FIP hitting a single big move that leaves the two in an equally vulnerable position. Two, it never works. The incoming heel always gets blasted by the incoming face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 At some point you have to accept that you're watching a wrestling match and that it's just a staple spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 Another match alternative structure I've just thought of is the babvface vs. monster heel. Best example probably being Sting vs. Vader. There you don't have a shine, you have the monster heel kicking ass. Then there's the spot where he gets multiple clotheslines but wont go down, then the spot where the face finally knocks him off his feet. We all know the structure of that match, but it's definitely an alternative from the standard formula. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 Vader bumped like a pinball for Sting. Sting took him off his feet multiple times. That's one of the things that made the matches so great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 Yes, but not straight away though, right? There was always the spot where Vader first goes down being a big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 They were probably the best super babyface versus monster heel monster matches, honestly. Though I liked seeing Vader leave his feet, I liked it when Sting lifted him, but because of the weight falls backwards spot. Completely unrealistic, but a fun spot anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 Last night, the simultaneous tag spot was done in a way I liked. Evan Bourne was getting worked over, but then he hit a move that knocked R-Truth loopy and both guys headed toward their corners. Truth tagged first, and Miz prevented Bourne from making the tag. When it's done in such a way that it creates suspense as to the outcome, I think it's fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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